BRouter with navigatin hints. Tracking script included - Version 0.5

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gel...@gmail.com

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Jun 21, 2015, 2:00:32 PM6/21/15
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Hi,
I'm using BRouter with QlandkarteGT to plan hiking routes. I like to have navigation hints when I'm on my way, but the public routing server generate navigation hints being next to useless for hiking.
I added navigation functionality to BRouter modified QlandkarteGT slightliy to use the extra data now coming from Brouter.

I faced a real challenge when digging into the code of BRouter and that had nothing to do with the complexity of the algorithms :-). Due to my problems with the code I decided to couple Brouter and the navigation processing as loosely as possible. I wanted to use and modify Brouter as little as possible.

Being mostly independent from BRouter is good for reusing the code it in another context but not for the overall performance.
The performance is okay in a single instance environment. I do not recommend using it for running a heavily used public routing server.

The code is only tested in a BRouter-Server context. I did not test it in any other way.
Like parts of BRouter the actual navigation hint processing is moved to a script.
For scripting the SISC Scheme interpreter in included. This should give all the power to scripting you could hope for.

In the current version a very simple hiking navigation script is included.

The main purpose of this code is working with my modified QLandkarteGT installation giving some navigation hits.

I did not bother modifying the maven configuration. I use Eclipse build in functionality for building the code. So, please try to live with that and do not throw dung at me for not updating the proper build environment.

I actually modified these Brouter-Source-Files only slightly:
brouter-core/ btools.router.OsmTrack
brouter-core/ btools.router.RoutingEngine
brouter-server/ btools.router.RouteServer

I added 4 classes in:
brouter-core/ btools.router.navi.

All the rest of the code is in the separate project navigator.

Attached you will find the source as well as the compiled version.

Have fun,
Ralf

PS: I'm here the first time and just realized not to be able to attach anything.
Here is the link: http://www.datafilehost.com/d/dca5097e

abre...@googlemail.com

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Jun 22, 2015, 12:47:34 PM6/22/15
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Hi Ralf,


Am Sonntag, 21. Juni 2015 20:00:32 UTC+2 schrieb Ralf:
> I added navigation functionality to BRouter modified QlandkarteGT slightliy to use the extra data now coming from Brouter.

interesting.

regarding this script-based approach for voice hints and the way to carry them in a gpx I will have a deeper look.

As for the way you implemented the access to the routing graph: Note that BRouter is doing one or two routing passes to find the track, and an addional, fast final pass, "guided" by the aleady known result, to add detail information to this track. In RoutingEngine.java, this final path is identified by "guideTrack != null".

Currently, you collect all visited nodes from all passes in a hash-set to get a copy of the relavant part of the routing graph. From my understanding, it should be sufficient to collect them only from the final path - that should completely eliminate the performance-impact you report, because you collect much less nodes. Just move the call to "addViditedNode" 4 lines down.


> I faced a real challenge when digging into the code of BRouter and that had nothing to do with the complexity of the algorithms :-).

On your code-quality remarks: true that this is not something to win a beauty contest - too much complexity added and not enough refactoring done, that leads to a state where the code is hard to understand. This is espacially true for the "core" package. Some others are in a better shape, especially the pre-processor ("mapcreator"), that has undergone one iteration of refactoring, or the "util" package.

But there's also the "clash of cultures": there are people feeling really bad when seeing a foreign identention style, public members or references to non-interfaces. This is partly religious and the correlation to the real structual or technological issues not always obvious. Other than "equal-but-not-hashcode" used in a HashSet can drive you crazy :-) .

gel...@gmail.com

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Jun 22, 2015, 1:23:20 PM6/22/15
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> Currently, you collect all visited nodes from all passes in a hash-set to get a copy of the relavant part of the routing graph. From my understanding, it should be sufficient to collect them only from the final path - that should completely eliminate the performance-impact you report, because you collect much less nodes. Just move the call to "addViditedNode" 4 lines down.

Thank you for the hint. I agree, collecting the nodes from the final path should suffice.

Regarding the potential performance issues. The scheme interpreter is initialized for each navigation processing from start. This could take >100 ms or so. I'm quite sure that could be improved, but did not bother for my purpose.


Zossebart

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Jul 9, 2015, 5:44:22 AM7/9/15
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On Monday, June 22, 2015 at 6:47:34 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi Ralf,

Am Sonntag, 21. Juni 2015 20:00:32 UTC+2 schrieb Ralf:
> I added navigation functionality to BRouter modified QlandkarteGT slightliy to use the extra data now coming from Brouter.

interesting.

regarding this script-based approach for voice hints and the way to carry them in a gpx I will have a deeper look.

Interesting indeed! @Arndt: Did you have time yet to look into this? Is this a server-solution only or would it be possible to include it in the android app as well?
 
I think you are also aware, that at least some Locus users (including me ;-) ) would love to have navigation hints support in Brouter. There is a discussion about it in the Locus forum, but nobody has a clue how to transfer the hints to the navigation app (via gpx?). Maybe Ralf's implementation could help to shed some light on this?

regards,
zossebart
 

gel...@gmail.com

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Jul 9, 2015, 6:02:06 AM7/9/15
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> I think you are also aware, that at least some Locus users (including me ;-) ) would love to have navigation hints support in Brouter. There is a discussion about it in the Locus forum, but nobody has a clue how to transfer the hints to the navigation app (via gpx?). Maybe Ralf's implementation could help to shed some light on this?
>
> regards,
> zossebart
>  
Zossebart,
I can see no technical restriction why the code should not work in an app anvironment in principle. I did not test it yet and I doubt that it will just run out of the box. Most likely there is a necessity to enhance/modify the current interface, but not the core functionality.
In regard locus:
It depends on how locus expects the handover of navigation hints. The current implementation within Brouter writes the collected navigation hints as way points into the gpx stream. This part of the code is extremely simple and only a few lines long. If another transformation to fit the needs of locus is required... well this should be an easy job.

Regards,
Ralf

Zossebart

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Jul 9, 2015, 6:52:15 AM7/9/15
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:02:06 PM UTC+2, gel...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think you are also aware, that at least some Locus users (including me ;-) ) would love to have navigation hints support in Brouter. There is a discussion about it in the Locus forum, but nobody has a clue how to transfer the hints to the navigation app (via gpx?). Maybe Ralf's implementation could help to shed some light on this?
>
> regards,
> zossebart
>  
Zossebart,
I can see no technical restriction why the code should not work in an app anvironment in principle. I did not test it yet and I doubt that it will just run out of the box. Most likely there is a necessity to enhance/modify the current interface, but not the core functionality.
Sounds good!
 
In regard locus:
It depends on how locus expects the handover of navigation hints. The current implementation within Brouter writes the collected navigation hints as way points into the gpx stream. This part of the code is extremely simple and only a few lines long.
Ok. Is this way of storing the hints provided by the standard gpx format, or do you extend the gpx format with your "way points"? Sorry, I don't have experience with the gpx format :-(
However, there should not be an app-specific interface, because Locus is not the only app which can work with Brouter.
 
If another transformation to fit the needs of locus is required... well this should be an easy job.
I don't think this would be necessary, the format should use a generic standard. But until now, we were not able to find such a generic standard (maybe only because of the lack of knowledge). Arndt asked the developer of Locus some time ago about the interface used with the other routing options supported by Locus (MapQuest, Yours, OSRM), but he said they all use different approaches and there was no standard way of doing it.
I think it would be no problem to convince the author of Locus to extend the gpx import with the functionality, if there should be something missing in the current implementation.
Would it be possible for you to export a sample gpx file generated by your implementation and make it available for download? Then I would try to import it into Locus and look if it is "navigatable" out of the box...
@Arndt: is the current internal format of transferring the calculated route to the navigation app similar to the gpx format, or is it something entirely different? If it is similar, maybe it would be easy to extend it with the generated way points?
 
Regards,
zossebart

gel...@gmail.com

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Jul 9, 2015, 8:45:02 AM7/9/15
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> Would it be possible for you to export a sample gpx file generated by your implementation and make it available for download? Then I would try to import it into Locus and look if it is "navigatable" out of the box...
> @Arndt: is the current internal format of transferring the calculated route to the navigation app similar to the gpx format, or is it something entirely different? If it is similar, maybe it would be easy to extend it with the generated way points?

The gpx format defines in essence a way to disciple positions (waypoints) (POI and such) position defining a track and positions defining a route.
Each of these positions can hold the same meta data, such as geo position, name, comment, type, description, time and such.
There is no defined attribute to place navigation hints (let me know if this is not correct). Therefore systems either use a proprietary extension or misuse one of the existing attributes to store and evaluate navigation hints.
To pass navigation hints to QLandkateGT I added waypoins and placed the navigation hint in the name attribute. I used the comment attribute to store the index of the related track step for this navigation hint. I added a few lines of code to the QLandkarteGT to use this information for its internal processing.
I'm using OruxMaps for hiking and OruxMaps has the capability to read the names of waypoints. With an additional little program I convert the QLandkarteGT gpx export, holding “my” navigation hints as positions defining a route to just plain waypoints.
If the navigation hints are just waypoints and the hint is the name of that waypoint OruxMaps is happy, and so am I :)

You see, all depends on how locus expects to get navigation hints. Providing them within the gpx-file is no thing. If the data exchange between BRouter and Lucos is not gpx but another format, things might be different.

This is an example of my export [The navigation hints are in German :-)]
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- track-length = 847 filtered ascend = 0 plain-ascend = -39 cost=4649 -->
<!-- (alt-index 0: track-length = 847 filtered ascend = 0 plain-ascend = -39 cost=3965 ) -->
<gpx
xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd"
creator="BRouter-1.2" version="1.1">
<wpt lon="8.891369" lat="49.765308"> <name>Halb rechts</name><cmt>4</cmt></wpt>
<wpt lon="8.890701" lat="49.766144"> <name>Gradeaus</name><cmt>7</cmt></wpt>
<wpt lon="8.887579" lat="49.769395"> <name>Scharf rechts</name><cmt>13</cmt></wpt>
<wpt lon="8.888839" lat="49.769663"> <name>Halb rechts</name><cmt>14</cmt></wpt>
<trk>
<name>brouter_trekking_1</name>
<trkseg>
<trkpt lon="8.892028" lat="49.765331"><ele>237.25</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.891959" lat="49.765358"><ele>237.25</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.891853" lat="49.765363"><ele>236.75</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.891640" lat="49.765308"><ele>236.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.891369" lat="49.765308"><ele>235.5</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.891202" lat="49.765536"><ele>235.25</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.890860" lat="49.765970"><ele>231.75</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.890701" lat="49.766144"><ele>229.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.890219" lat="49.766818"><ele>222.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.889796" lat="49.767437"><ele>220.5</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.889211" lat="49.768224"><ele>218.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.888490" lat="49.768783"><ele>216.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.887626" lat="49.769361"><ele>214.5</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.887579" lat="49.769395"><ele>214.5</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.888839" lat="49.769663"><ele>213.0</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.889290" lat="49.769355"><ele>213.5</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.890449" lat="49.769785"><ele>203.75</ele></trkpt>
<trkpt lon="8.890581" lat="49.769838"><ele>198.25</ele></trkpt>
</trkseg>
</trk>
</gpx>


Zossebart

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Jul 10, 2015, 8:02:28 AM7/10/15
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 2:45:02 PM UTC+2, gel...@gmail.com wrote:
The gpx format defines in essence a way to disciple positions (waypoints) (POI and such) position defining a track and positions defining a route.
Each of these positions can hold the same meta data, such as geo position, name, comment, type, description, time and such.
There is no defined attribute to place navigation hints (let me know if this is not correct). Therefore systems either use a proprietary extension or misuse one of the existing attributes to store and evaluate navigation hints.

Thanks for the explanation. Too bad that there seems to be no standard way to do it in gpx, but I think the format was never meant to have such a feature. Although the format is extendable, there seems to be no commonly aggreed 'standard' for a navigation extension (yet?).
 
To pass navigation hints to QLandkateGT I added waypoins and placed the navigation hint in the name attribute. I used the comment attribute to store the index of the related track step for this navigation hint. I added a few lines of code to the QLandkarteGT to use this information for its internal processing.
I'm using OruxMaps for hiking and OruxMaps has the capability to read the names of waypoints. With an additional little program I convert the QLandkarteGT gpx export, holding “my” navigation hints as positions defining a route to just plain waypoints.
If the navigation hints are just waypoints and the hint is the name of that waypoint OruxMaps is happy, and so am I :)

Thanks for sharing your example! I loaded it with Locus, I can see the waypoints (including their names with the hints), but it is not possible to use them for navigation (which I almost expected). 

You see, all depends on how locus expects to get navigation hints. Providing them within the gpx-file is no thing. If the data exchange between BRouter and Lucos is not gpx but another format, things might be different.

I think we should wait for Arndt to answer this, but I can't imagine that the internal format is gpx, because it has lots of overhead.

Regards,
zossebart

btw: I'm german too, so no problem with the german navigation hints ;-)

 

abre...@googlemail.com

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Jul 12, 2015, 1:37:02 PM7/12/15
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Am Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 14:02:28 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:

I think we should wait for Arndt to answer this, but I can't imagine that the internal format is gpx, because it has lots of overhead.

It is GPX. Here's the aidl-definition of the interface that Locus uses:

http://brouter.de/brouter/IBRouterService.aidl

OsmAnd still uses KML, but for just historical reasons. Meanwhile there's also GeoJSON (added by Norbert as a low-overhead format for BRouter-Web), but that's not yet supported by the aidl-interface.

I'm following the discussion with great interest, but, to be fair, I'm not going to implement into the Android app some quick-hack that's Locus-Only, or german-only, and I'm somewhat sceptical about adding a third-party scripting library to the android app. This Android App is all about memory queezing and keeping it slim, so beeing conservative on technologies is the only way to avoid regressions.

However, if the requirements, the interfaces and the algorithm's are clear, I'm sure that technolgie will not be a problem.

gel...@gmail.com

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Jul 12, 2015, 2:17:09 PM7/12/15
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> It is GPX. Here's the aidl-definition of the interface that Locus uses:
>
> http://brouter.de/brouter/IBRouterService.aidl

Hmm, I did not recognize any parameter being able to transport navigation hints.

> I'm following the discussion with great interest, but, to be fair, I'm not going to implement into the Android app some quick-hack that's Locus-Only,...

Sure thing. It might be a BRouter specific extension that by “chance” is very close to the format some of the common apps use.

...or german-only, …
The implementation is language independent. It example is German, just because my example script has German hints. BRouter is not only for bikes just because the example profile seems to focus on biking. Adding or modifying the script could result in much more sophisticated navigation hints and any language you would like. The script is located in the BRouter profile dir.

...and I'm somewhat sceptical about adding a third-party scripting library to the android app. This Android App is all about memory queezing and keeping it slim, so beeing conservative on technologies is the only way to avoid regressions.

Fair, I did not check the memory footprint and it might be okay or might not be a good idea to add it to a standard router. A configurable extension could be a solution, so people could choose.

> However, if the requirements, the interfaces and the algorithm's are clear, I'm sure that technolgie will not be a problem.

Agreed.


Zossebart

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Jul 17, 2015, 8:17:29 AM7/17/15
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On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 7:37:02 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 14:02:28 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:

I think we should wait for Arndt to answer this, but I can't imagine that the internal format is gpx, because it has lots of overhead.

It is GPX. Here's the aidl-definition of the interface that Locus uses:

http://brouter.de/brouter/IBRouterService.aidl
Thanks for pointing this out.
 


OsmAnd still uses KML, but for just historical reasons. Meanwhile there's also GeoJSON (added by Norbert as a low-overhead format for BRouter-Web), but that's not yet supported by the aidl-interface.

I'm following the discussion with great interest, but, to be fair, I'm not going to implement into the Android app some quick-hack that's Locus-Only
Yeah, that's fair.
 
, or german-only,
I wonder what would be a generic way of transferring navi instruction hints between applications. For portability, text strings in any language are clearly not the way to go (even if it's english). So maybe sort of a coded value (e.g. 0x1 == straight, 0x2 == left, 0x3 == right, 0x4 == u-turn, maybe with turn angles in degrees)? It's too bad that something like this doesn't seem to exist right now, or we don't know of it.
In the Locus Forum, there where some discussions about the (Garmin?) TCX format, which might have support for this, but I think it's a propriertary format.
 
and I'm somewhat sceptical about adding a third-party scripting library to the android app. This Android App is all about memory queezing and keeping it slim, so beeing conservative on technologies is the only way to avoid regressions.
You are right! But would it be possible to implement it in java inside the app, instead of using the script approach? Maybe that would't be as much of a problem performance-wise?


abre...@googlemail.com

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Jul 17, 2015, 1:26:29 PM7/17/15
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Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2015 14:17:29 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:
I wonder what would be a generic way of transferring navi instruction hints between applications. For portability, text strings in any language are clearly not the way to go (even if it's english). So maybe sort of a coded value (e.g. 0x1 == straight, 0x2 == left, 0x3 == right, 0x4 == u-turn, maybe with turn angles in degrees)? It's too bad that something like this doesn't seem to exist right now, or we don't know of it.

Just by chance saw that www.gpsies.com allows some filtering options when downloading a GPX. One of them is adding navigation instructions.

They look very similar to gelra01's, but with additional tags "sym" and "type" (with always sym=type). Is that a common standard?

  <wpt lat="51.36373763" lon="6.315708730">
    <ele>34.000000</ele>
    <name>100 m Links abbiegen, Kurs: 159° S</name>
    <sym>Left</sym>
    <type>Left</type>
  </wpt>
  <wpt lat="51.34723003" lon="6.324083325">
    <ele>37.000000</ele>
    <name>100 m Weiter, Kurs: 167° S</name>
    <sym>Straight</sym>
    <type>Straight</type>
  </wpt>
  <wpt lat="51.34136306" lon="6.326228354">
    <ele>37.000000</ele>
    <name>100 m Links leicht, Kurs: 156° SE</name>
    <sym>TSLL</sym>
    <type>TSLL</type>
  </wpt>

 
.. would it be possible to implement it in java inside the app, instead of using the script approach? Maybe that would't be as much of a problem performance-wise?

Scripts are cool. BRouter profiles are scripts as well. Maybe this can get together.
 

gel...@gmail.com

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Jul 23, 2015, 2:39:55 AM7/23/15
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> I wonder what would be a generic way of transferring navi instruction hints between applications. For portability, text strings in any language are clearly not the way to go (even if it's english). So maybe sort of a coded value (e.g. 0x1 == straight, 0x2 == left, 0x3 == right, 0x4 == u-turn, maybe with turn angles in degrees)? It's too bad that something like this doesn't seem to exist right now, or we don't know of it.

I don't think so. In many cases routing is much more complex than just “turn right” or “turn left”. A more sophisticated navigation hint in a given context could be “follow the road for another 2 km and then turn right into the farm track”. You would need a more complex structure to transport this message by language independent codes. Transporting just the message does give you all the flexibility you might need.

> You are right! But would it be possible to implement it in java inside the app, instead of using the script approach? Maybe that would't be as much of a problem performance-wise?

I think it is vital to put navigation hint calculation into a script. Depending on the navigation context the results might be very different. If you are driving a car, you don't want to know that it might be a good idea to stay on the road and not to take the steps on the right hand side. If you are just hiking, it might be worth knowing.
BRouter uses scrips to customize routing to your context and preferences. I definitely like this idea. The same should be true for navigation hint processing, especially because navigation hints have most likely to do with language and that should not be contained within a closed code.

Poutnik

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Jul 23, 2015, 2:54:40 AM7/23/15
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Do 3rd party online router services provide navigation hints ?
Or, are they created by target application like OSMAnd, based on
provided route ?


Dne 23/07/2015 v 08:39 gel...@gmail.com napsal(a):

Zossebart

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Aug 11, 2015, 7:27:17 AM8/11/15
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Hi,


On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 8:54:40 AM UTC+2, Poutnik wrote:
Do 3rd party online router services  provide navigation hints ?
Or, are they created by target  application like OSMAnd, based on
provided route ?

there are some 3rd party online routing services which provide navigation hints e.g. MapQuest or Google. However, the developer of Locus allegedly stated, that they each have a different way of transferring the nav hints. See the quote in this (german) thread in the Locus Forum about the very same topic:

http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=4064.msg36849#msg36849

Locus falls back to it's internal navigation hint generator in case the routing service does not provide hints (e.g. Brouter). This is in fact working quite good, but not optimal, as you can imagine.

 

Zossebart

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Oct 2, 2015, 10:33:52 AM10/2/15
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I did some further investigation in this and can only confirm: all of the routing providers seem to have their own routing API, as well as different ways of exporting the route with navi hints to GPX format :-(

APIs:
Google: https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/directions/intro
Yours: only returns simple GPX (track) without instructions
MapQuest: JSON or XML return: http://www.mapquestapi.com/directions/#response
OSRM: JSON return: https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/wiki/Server-api
Graphhopper: JSON or GPX return: https://github.com/graphhopper/directions-api/blob/master/docs-routing.md

GPX export:
- bikemap, outdooractive, strava, bikeroutetoaster, yours, openrouteservice and OSMR don't seem to export any turn instructions to GPX
- bbbike, gpxgmap, cycle.travel and cyclestreets only export turn instructions or street names in <name> or <desc> -tags of <rtept> or <trkpt> elements

- GPSIES exports the track (<trk>), as well as turn instruction texts and types wrapped in waypoints:
  - <wpt><name>: textual instruction
  - <wpt><type>: instruction type, I discovered the following values:
    - TSLR: slight right
    - Right: right
    - TSHR: sharp right
    - TSLL: slight left
    - Left: left
    - TSHL: sharp left
    - TU: u-turn
  - <wpt><sym>: instruction symbol, same as <type>, but lowercase

- OSMAnd exports the track (<trk>), as well as turn instruction texts and turn-angles, turns etc. in extensions to <rtept> elements:
  - <rtept><desc>: textual instruction
  - <rtept><extensions><turn>: turn/instruction type, I discovered the following values:
    - no <turn> element: straight ahead
    - KR: keep right
    - TSLR: slight right
    - TR: right
    - TSHR: sharp right
    - KL: keep left
    - TSLL: slight left
    - TL: left
    - TSHL: sharp left
    - TU: u-turn

- Locus exports the track (<trk>), as well as turn instruction texts and point actions in extensions to <wpt> elements:
  - <wpt><name>: textual instruction
  - <wpt><extensions><locus:rtePointAction>: point action (turn instruction), I discovered the following values:
    - 1: straight ahead/follow street
    - 2: ??
    - 3: slight left
    - 4: left
    - 5: sharp left
    - 6: slight right
    - 7: right
    - 8: sharp right
    - 12: u-turn
    - 14: destination

- Graphhopper exports the track (<trk>), as well as turn instruction texts and instruction signs in extensions to <rtept> elements:
  - <rtept><desc>: textual instruction
  - <rtept><extensions><gh:sign>: turn sign/instruction, I discovered the following values:
    - 0: straight ahead
    - 1: slight right
    - 2: right
    - 3: sharp right
    - -1: slight left
    - -2: left
    - -3: sharp left
    - 4: destination
    - 5: via point

We are far from a consistent standard, you see :-(
With some apps (e.g. Locus and Oruxmaps) I discovered "ugly" results with GPX-exports which contain a track (<trk>), as well as a route (<rte>) (like Graphhopper and OSMAnd exports): the app displays both the (detailed) track, as well as the (rough) route simulaneously. Therefore, I would prefer a format with the turn instructions packed into waypoints (<wpt>), like Locus or GPSIES does.
Furthermore, I think formats which only contain instruction texts are not as suitable for turn-by-turn navigation as formats containing both texts and distinct instruction values (like OSMAND, Locus, Graphopper and GPSIES)

Given the variety of existing solutions, you might as well define your own one. Obviously, everyone does this ;-)
Or you could decide to re-use one of the existing solutions (probably the one most of the apps already support) and implement it into brouter (provided the licence allows this).

I hope we can make some progress in this field. I (and I think many more) would love to have turn instructions natively provided by Brouter!

regards,
zossebart

abre...@googlemail.com

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Oct 4, 2015, 11:55:05 AM10/4/15
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Am Freitag, 2. Oktober 2015 16:33:52 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:

Given the variety of existing solutions, you might as well define your own one. Obviously, everyone does this ;-)
Or you could decide to re-use one of the existing solutions (probably the one most of the apps already support) and implement it into brouter (provided the licence allows this).


Cool, good work. Yes I think the most promising approach is to not care on interface formats, but just on the model and the algorithm, that is, produce good data, choose a data-model with a small missmatch to the existing approaches, write that in comment-syntax into the xml  and see wht happens. This is likely to be my topic for the next Karlsruhe hack-weekend at geofabrik in to weeks.


Zossebart

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Oct 6, 2015, 8:35:35 AM10/6/15
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This is likely to be my topic for the next Karlsruhe hack-weekend at geofabrik in to weeks.

 Ahh yes, this sounds like a nice topic for the hack-weekend. Maybe there are even people attending which have some more insight in this field?!
Given that there already is a first implementation from the original author of this thread, and you already put some thoughts into this discussing with him, I'm sure you will come up with a good solution.


Yes I think the most promising approach is to not care on interface formats, but just on the model and the algorithm, that is, produce good data, choose a data-model with a small missmatch to the existing approaches, write that in comment-syntax into the xml  and see wht happens.

I'm not sure what you mean by "comment-syntax into the xml"? Does this mean that the navi instructions in the first implementation will end up not being useable by an app, but at least human-readable as comments in the gpx-file for verification?

btw., I found yet another (different) routing API description using a JSON-format (used by Mapzen): https://github.com/valhalla/valhalla-docs/blob/master/api-reference.md

Zossebart

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Dec 11, 2015, 9:06:14 AM12/11/15
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Hi,


On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 2:35:35 PM UTC+2, Zossebart wrote:

This is likely to be my topic for the next Karlsruhe hack-weekend at geofabrik in to weeks.

I would like to know what's the status on this? Did you attend the hack-weekend?
I assume you rather worked on the new optimized segments format then on the navi hints topic? Btw. thank you for that, this saves precious space on my mobile!
 

abre...@googlemail.com

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Dec 13, 2015, 7:26:21 AM12/13/15
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Well, yes, like that. Data format re-factoring took all the resources from my limited brain, also in Karlsruhe..

Wasn't only space and bandwith savings driving that, but some fundamental memory issues affecting stability.

Don't know when to come back to to the instructions-topic, but pretty sure that the winter will be long enough.

regards, Arndt

Zossebart

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Dec 14, 2015, 4:19:52 AM12/14/15
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Thanks for the information!
No hurry, take your time. I assume developing brouter is not your fulltime job, is it? Under these circumstances, it's really great what you already created until now! Thanks again for this!

regards, Zossebart

Zossebart

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Apr 1, 2016, 6:23:45 AM4/1/16
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Hey Arndt,

now that the winter slowly comes to an end, I would like to ask again if you were able to spend some time on this topic during the long winter evenings? Would be great to have this available for the upcoming bike season ;-)

regards,
Zossebart

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 4, 2016, 10:22:57 AM4/4/16
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thank's for the wakeup...

I've some holdidays currently and promise to deliver something next weekend. It will not be a silver-bullet, at least not something that is not talking bullshit at roundabouts and satifies all interfacing requirements, but it will be a starting point and define a central place for the missing logic to go, to eventually attract other developers for finetuning.

regards, Arndt

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 9, 2016, 11:24:46 AM4/9/16
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Am Freitag, 2. Oktober 2015 16:33:52 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:
... Therefore, I would prefer a format with the turn instructions packed into waypoints (<wpt>), like Locus or GPSIES does.
...
I hope we can make some progress in this field. I (and I think many more) would love to have turn instructions natively provided by Brouter!


Hi,

so I gave it a try and committed a patch to github (see the latest commit in github).

It uses a new expression "priorityclassifier" to define the relative way-priorities, but the rest of the logic is hard-coded. Currently, this logic is rather simple: a turn starts at 15 degree, and if that junction has any other way with equal or higher priority, then a waypoint is created. In addition, "Straight-On" waypoints are created if any other way of that junction has a  higher priority. This is probably too simple, however, ths part of the logic is well detached (See classes VoiceHint.java and VoiceHintProcessor.java ).

I did not succeed to have Locus process these voice hints. But in my tests today, I did not succeed to create any reasonable voice hints in Locus, not even after switching to MapQuest, all I heard was confusing, so maybe I am doing something wrong. I also played with Locus specific extensions, with no success either. I asked a question in Locus forum, hope to get any feedback there.

I uploaded zip with the patched apk + jar file as well as a "trekking.brf" with the new expression added:

http://brouter.de/brouter_bin/voice_hint_patch.zip

The simplest thing you can do to test the new feature is to:

- use brouter.de/brouter-web (where the patch is active)
- modify the profile to contain the "priorityclassifier" expression (within the way-context)
- or upload the "trekking.brf" from the zip-file
- create tracks and download as GPX-Files
- display these GPX files using any tool or online site able to display both the track and the waypoints

So the most urgent issue is to solve the interfacing issue with Locus. I think the algorithm part is the fun part.

I did not try with OsmAnd. I know that the voice hint's cannot pass the service-interface (because OsmAnd's interface to Brouter I implemented myself), but maybe it works with explicit GPX tracks?

Happy for any feedback, though this is not yet a useful feature.

regrds, Arndt

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 10, 2016, 8:46:45 AM4/10/16
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Am Samstag, 9. April 2016 17:24:46 UTC+2 schrieb abrensch:
 
I did not succeed to have Locus process these voice hints. But in my tests today, I did not succeed to create any reasonable voice hints in Locus, not even after switching to MapQuest, all I heard was confusing, so maybe I am doing something wrong.

I gave it a second try and now it works with Locus at least when importing the gpx generated by brouter.

To  achieve that, I use the locus specific extension:

  <wpt lon="8.608944" lat="49.674370">
     <name>right</name>
     <extensions>
        <locus:rteDistance>292.0</locus:rteDistance>
        <locus:rtePointAction>7</locus:rtePointAction>
     </extensions>
  </wpt>

The voice message I hear is german (for me), so the name-tag seems to be ignored and language specific messages generated b locus - that's good. "rteDistance" is the distance to the next instruction.

Unfortunatly, this breaks the gpx-syntax for non-locus use, at least OsmAnd refuses to impirt such a gpx. So I introduced a new config parameter "turnInstructionMode" with values :

  0=none, 1=gpsies-style, 2=locus-style

I adapted the "trekking.brf" at http://brouter.de/brouter-web to contain both new variables ( "turnInstructionMode" + "priorityclassifier" ), but set  turnInstructionMode = 0.

So to test with locus via brouter-web, just switch to turnInstructionMode = 2.

Or use the trekking.brf and the APK from the updated patch-zip-file: http://brouter.de/brouter_bin/voice_patch.zip and genarete a GPX on android, then import that into Locus.

I also tested GPX-Import with OsmAnd ( using turnInstructionMode = 1 ), but I got a confusing mixture of waypoint-announcements and generated turn instructions.

I did some field tests with Locus and the new voice hints and it was already quite usable. Definitly needs more fine-tuning, e.g. at roundabouts, narrow forges, or "curved" legs. But still the most urget issue is to get the interfacing done - so that it will also work when using BRouter via the service-interface.

@Poutnik: thanks for your feedback (private message?). For your remark on way-priorities: my approach generates voice hints for equal-priority junctions, so I guess having track=road=path all equal is o.k.?

Volker

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Apr 10, 2016, 9:58:05 AM4/10/16
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Osmand can import turninstructions like this:

</rtept>
<rtept lat="49.2094392" lon="10.0648713">
<desc>keep right</desc>
<extensions>
<turn>KR</turn>
<offset>103</offset>
</extensions>
</rtept>

Offset is the the number of the trackpoint with the same coordinates. Desc is shown in the navigation list but seems not to be spoken. Turn are the instructions, see https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/blob/master/OsmAnd-java/src/net/osmand/router/TurnType.java but you can't import C (go straight).

Poutnik

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Apr 10, 2016, 10:05:19 AM4/10/16
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Dne 10/04/2016 v 15:58 'Volker' via OSM Android bikerouting napsal(a):
Hm, it looks like the need to have different set of profiles
for Locus and for OSMAnd.....
.. unless turnInstructionMode info would be kept out of the profiles.

--
Poutnik ( The Wanderer )

My Brouter profiles
https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

Zossebart

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Apr 10, 2016, 1:37:44 PM4/10/16
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Hey,

I only had time to do a short test on the sofa so far (was busy biking ;-) ), but I can confirm that the current version generates turn instructions useable by Locus with turnInstructionMode=2, when importing the generated GPX. This is a great starting point already!
Thank you so much for this!

I hope I can find time to test some more tomorrow....

regards,
Zossebart


Andrew Heard

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Apr 10, 2016, 6:18:20 PM4/10/16
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Great beginnings of new development Arndt.

>Currently, this logic is rather simple: a turn starts at 15 degree

Does that mean there will be a waypoint on any > 15 degree bend in road which otherwise has no junction? Internal Locus navigation does that, but of no use for out-of-city quite roads with lots of bends because Locus display turns on/off all the time for no useful reason.

Andrew Heard

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Apr 10, 2016, 6:40:17 PM4/10/16
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I should have experimented @ http://brouter.de/brouter-web/ before asking question. Sorry Arndt. Can answer own question. Yes - just on "proper" junctions. Wow - already quite usable, and already great advance forward from current app functionality. Even at junction where track is directly forward (less than 15 degrees turn?) it would be reassuring (for me as touring cyclist) to have Locus announce a straight ahead waypoint. Thanks for email Poutnik.

Poutnik

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Apr 11, 2016, 5:17:05 AM4/11/16
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I guess I have finally got it, your ways seems correct to me now. :-)

Dne neděle 10. dubna 2016 14:46:45 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

poutnik

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Apr 11, 2016, 5:34:29 AM4/11/16
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Hmm. Wait..
In straight on Hunt is given is for higher priorities
and if path and track have the Same one......
then if the track I follow turns
But I have to follow the streight on path
Then I would not get hint. But I should get it.

11. dubna 2016 11:17:05 CEST, Poutnik <poutni...@gmail.com> napsal:
I guess I have finally got it, your ways seems correct to me now. :-)

Dne neděle 10. dubna 2016 14:46:45 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

@Poutnik: thanks for your feedback (private message?). For your remark on way-priorities: my approach generates voice hints for equal-priority junctions, so I guess having track=road=path all equal is o.k.?


--
Sent from my phone via Android email client K-9.
Please, forgive my brevity.

Poutnik

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Apr 11, 2016, 9:19:12 AM4/11/16
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Do you plan to implement also keep left / keep right ?
Like e.g. if there are 2 ways within +/- 15 degrees , possibly making confusion which one of them  is the straight one.

Dne sobota 9. dubna 2016 17:24:46 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 11, 2016, 11:35:26 AM4/11/16
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On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 3:19:12 PM UTC+2, Poutnik wrote:
Do you plan to implement also keep left / keep right ?
Like e.g. if there are 2 ways within +/- 15 degrees , possibly making confusion which one of them  is the straight one.


to be honest, my plan is not to do the fine-tuning myself. This is a perfect project for other contributors looking for something which is challenging from the algorithm side, but reasonably context-free, so without much digging into legacy code. See the opening text of this thread...

True, this is a non-trivial problem. A must-have is to do motorway-exits right. They have always small angles and sometimes the exit goes straight, and the motorway to the left... But also while biking, you sometimes hit narrow forges, with maybe both ways going slight-left, and you may want to generate a "keep right" to describe the situation.

Also the way-priorities need fine-tuning. Maybe the grade1-paths need a higher category than other paths? So the priority-expression can get as complex as the costfactor. Or just use the costfactor instead?

Poutnik

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Apr 11, 2016, 12:07:59 PM4/11/16
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I see...
I could contribute a little in algorithms, but not much in coding,
as my rusty knowledge of Z80 assembler, CP/M Turbopascal, basics of C and current susing of VBforApplications will not help much.

For trackgrades, they may definitely deserve more granularity,
as grade1 is for trekking bike/MTbike/foot like as primary road for cars. grade2 like as secondary...

My latest development Trekking profile implementing Locus hints is here :
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/poutnikl/Trekking-Poutnik/psmallpaved_factor/Trekking-Poutnik.brf

Dne pondělí 11. dubna 2016 17:35:26 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 11, 2016, 12:10:59 PM4/11/16
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On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 2:35:35 PM UTC+2, Zossebart wrote:


Yes I think the most promising approach is to not care on interface formats, but just on the model and the algorithm, that is, produce good data, choose a data-model with a small missmatch to the existing approaches, write that in comment-syntax into the xml  and see wht happens.

I'm not sure what you mean by "comment-syntax into the xml"? Does this mean that the navi instructions in the first implementation will end up not being useable by an app, but at least human-readable as comments in the gpx-file for verification?
 


On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 4:05:19 PM UTC+2, Poutnik wrote:
.. unless turnInstructionMode info would be kept out of the profiles.


Menion (Author of Locus) answered to my question on the interfacing problem ( see http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=5066.msg42240#new )

He says, BRouter should'nt generate target specific syntax, but define it's own, and he's ready to evaluate whatever we deliver.

The lead's me back to the idea of using a comment-syntax that does not have any side-effects and does not break any imports. Such a comment syntax would be the default (generated by an out-of-the-box BRouter installation), with the possibilty to generate other formats by setting the turnInstructionMode  parameter.

That comment syntax would contain the superset of information of the existing formats, to keep the model-mismatch small. E.g. it would contain the lon/lat of the wayspoint *and* the offset of the corresponsing track-point (lon/lat is ambigious for tracks crossing themselves?). And it would contain the complete junction geometry, including angles and priorities of all ways, just to make it easy to check the decision the algortithm makes.

Like this:

 /* --turn-instructions-start
    --turn  TSLR at 25(8.608944/49.674370) next 630  follow 4(25)5 ignore (-15)4  (50)4
    --turn-instructions-end */

makes sense?

Poutnik

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Apr 12, 2016, 4:22:46 AM4/12/16
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Dne pondělí 11. dubna 2016 18:10:59 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

.....

That comment syntax would contain the superset of information of the existing formats, to keep the model-mismatch small. E.g. it would contain the lon/lat of the wayspoint *and* the offset of the corresponsing track-point (lon/lat is ambigious for tracks crossing themselves?). And it would contain the complete junction geometry, including angles and priorities of all ways, just to make it easy to check the decision the algortithm makes.

Like this:

 /* --turn-instructions-start
    --turn  TSLR at 25(8.608944/49.674370) next 630  follow 4(25)5 ignore (-15)4  (50)4
    --turn-instructions-end */


makes sense?
 
   --turn  TSLR at 25(8.608944/49.674370) next 630  follow 4(25)5 ignore (-15)4  (50)4

Would deserve some legend, but generally it is a good idea.
Applications not aware of those direction hints will just ignore it.


Zossebart

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Apr 12, 2016, 9:37:06 AM4/12/16
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Menion (Author of Locus) answered to my question on the interfacing problem ( see http://forum.locusmap.eu/index.php?topic=5066.msg42240#new )

He says, BRouter should'nt generate target specific syntax, but define it's own, and he's ready to evaluate whatever we deliver.

The lead's me back to the idea of using a comment-syntax that does not have any side-effects and does not break any imports. Such a comment syntax would be the default (generated by an out-of-the-box BRouter installation), with the possibilty to generate other formats by setting the turnInstructionMode  parameter.

That comment syntax would contain the superset of information of the existing formats, to keep the model-mismatch small. E.g. it would contain the lon/lat of the wayspoint *and* the offset of the corresponsing track-point (lon/lat is ambigious for tracks crossing themselves?). And it would contain the complete junction geometry, including angles and priorities of all ways, just to make it easy to check the decision the algortithm makes.

Like this:

 /* --turn-instructions-start
    --turn  TSLR at 25(8.608944/49.674370) next 630  follow 4(25)5 ignore (-15)4  (50)4
    --turn-instructions-end */

makes sense?

Yeah, in order to not confuse other apps and tools, "hiding" the voicehint in the gpx makes sense.

But I'm not quite sure if comments are the right place for this. What about the <extensions> tag, similar to what Locus is using? This would be easy to parse by the XML parsers already present in all the apps/tools, but would not be interpreted by those apps/tools which don't know the extension. Or am I getting something wrong here?

Do you have a feeling if the authors of the other apps supported by Brouter (Orux and OSMand) are willing to implement your newly defined interface? It sounds like the OSMand implementation would have to be done by you or someone else involved with Brouter?

Some questions about the proposed format:

"next 630" means the next trackpoint with a voicehint?
"follow 4(25)5" what exactly do you mean by this? I suppose the value in parenthesis is the turning angle?
"ignore (-15)4  (50)4" are this the ways not to turn into?

Unfortunately, it does not look like I will be able to test the voicehints in the wild until sunday or so, but I did some more sofa-testing and was quite happy with the results so far!

Regards,
Zossebart

Poutnik

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Apr 13, 2016, 5:25:50 AM4/13/16
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Using costfactor for priorityclassifier is interesting idea.

But I am afraid there is unclear correlation
between way prioritization (costfactor)
and the need of the hint ( priorityclassifier ),
as mutual ordering may be often reversed.

E.g., if a path as a junction to a track is to be taken,
but has higher costfactor than the current track,
it could be missed by the voice hint sybsystem
and finally by the rider as well, as optically minor.

Dne 11/04/2016 v 17:35 abrensch via OSM Android bikerouting napsal(a):
>
.......
>
> Also the way-priorities need fine-tuning. Maybe the grade1-paths need a
> higher category than other paths? So the priority-expression can get as
> complex as the costfactor. Or just use the costfactor instead?
>


Message has been deleted
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abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 18, 2016, 3:50:25 PM4/18/16
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I did some more work on that issue the weekend, with some success.

It's starting to make sense, and I have a concept for roundabouts, with roundabouts generating a single turn command, as well as for other structures (like cycleways bypassing a roundabout) also leading to a single turn command. It also does something reasonable on the car-problem, which turned out to be just a warmup-exercise compared to the bike problem.

I will publish a new release shortly, which also contains a comment-style syntax to place turn-instructions in a gpx.

regards, Arndt
Message has been deleted
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abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 21, 2016, 6:56:34 AM4/21/16
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On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 8:34:23 PM UTC+2, 0709 wrote:
 
Until now I did not find any software that refuses or fails with a track is using <sym>in trkpts. 
Even always supercritical Garmin software Mapsource, Basecamp  => = not protesting ! 100% functional.
The price to pay if using an ASSOCIATION sytem ?   Very similar to the tcx system is:

Hi,

I think  I can follow you. I also didn't find any interference when adding <sym> to <trkpt>

And of course that's a super simple system. However, the value-set still needs to be defined, and I tend to use that of OsmAnd ( see https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/blob/master/OsmAnd-java/src/net/osmand/router/TurnType.java )

And I need to put the transport type (foot/bike/car) somewhere. Could use the <trk><type> tag for that and put "ti:bike" in there? So that a parser has a marker that really the sym's are to interprete as turn-instructions.

thanx for your work,

ragards, Arndt

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Zossebart

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Apr 24, 2016, 5:09:34 AM4/24/16
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Hey All,


On Thursday, April 21, 2016 at 12:56:34 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:

And I need to put the transport type (foot/bike/car) somewhere. Could use the <trk><type> tag for that and put "ti:bike" in there? So that a parser has a marker that really the sym's are to interprete as turn-instructions.

Sounds legit to me. GPX has only a very vague description for the <trk><type> tag, so I think you can use it in your inteded way.

On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 1:33:07 PM UTC+2, 0709 wrote:
Hi Arndt,

<sym> in trkpt = KISS.
<sym> in trkpt = Topografix gpx 1.0 and 1.1 norm does allow to do.


To keep the standard from fragmenting, we ask that you: Validate your GPX output.
Use the GPX tags the way they were intended.
Example: 
<sym>8197</sym> might be a convenient way for your application to store a Garmin waypoint symbol, 
but it defeats the purpose of a common format.  Use <sym>Golf Course</sym> instead.

 So it sounds it is no good practice do define your own values for <sym>? However, the values in the gpx column of your spreadsheet (thanks for that!) seem sufficient for navigation purposes to me. Where did you get these values from? I think they are not defined in the GPX standard?

regards,
Zossebart

PS.: unfortunately, I had no time yet to test the brouter nav hints with Locus in the wild. :-(
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Zossebart

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Apr 25, 2016, 4:37:19 AM4/25/16
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Hey Willi,

On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 2:52:02 PM UTC+2, 0709 wrote:
Hi Zossebart.

What it sounds to me is please use a clear standard language text .
A <sym> standard ? I do not see any in the Topografix norm.
Probably the first who had some list with <sym> and Icons was Garmin. 
That list is preconfigured in a dropdown menu in many sofware's to choose from when editing.
Using compatible software and (garmin) gps (should) understand and display the expected Icon. 
Garmin expression for "Left" sym is <Navaid, White/Red>  Clear language ?  
If an Icon is not recognised (because not in the list) a Flag, or a dot is shown.
By the way, in the Garmin tcx norm, Left is expressed by the PointType: <Left> 

So please use  in <sym> a clear text that everyone understands even in simple notepad edit.
Apps just need to pickup  and understand that information transported in the <sym> text.
Or best <sym> in English and <name><cmt><desc> free available for any (local) language.

The demo list I prepared is no obligation only a suggestion.
That list, a must for  Brouter output ? No.., because that's up to Arndt to decide. 

Ok, thanks for clarification. Your interpretation sounds right to me (now).

@all: I'd like to discuss the current behaviour when going straight (<15°) on a junction with equal-priorized ways. In this case, no voice hint is generated (intentional). I guess Arndt decided so in order to reduce unnecessary voice hints.
I created some more testtracks in Locus yesterday and I found a situation where I might miss the right track because of a missing nav hint.
For example: http://brouter.de/brouter-web/#zoom=17&lat=50.451407&lon=12.57836&layer=OpenStreetMap&lonlats=12.578123,50.451746|12.580183,50.449443&nogos=&alternativeidx=0&format=geojson&profile=trekking
There is no nav hint generated for this junction because the angle is <15° (means "go straight") and the other way is of the same priority.
I think I would have taken the upper way going to the east in this situation. Even if the generated instruction would have been "go straight", I would have been alerted and I would have checked the display for the right way to go.

I understand that enabling voice hints also for equal-priorized junctions when going "straight" (<15°) would generate lots of unnecessary voice hints.
Maybe there is a way to only enable the instruction in this case if at least of the other (bad) ways are in a low angle relative to the (good) way to go? But I fear this would need too much CPU, as the angles of the bad ways (which otherwise aren't needed) would have to be computed in addition to the good way angle.
Or is this corner case rare enough to ignore it and don't bother changing the implementation (which is otherwise working well)?

regards,
Zossebart

 

Poutnik

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Apr 25, 2016, 6:21:29 AM4/25/16
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I suppose even a fork with equal priority roads is typical "where now ??" scenario,
Especially if the real geometry/situation does not fit exactly OSM one.

A lack of an essential hint IMHO overrules the possibility of excessive hint...
It is even more valid for foot or bike than for cars...

Dne pondělí 25. dubna 2016 10:37:19 UTC+2 Zossebart napsal(a):

@all: I'd like to discuss the current behaviour when going straight (<15°) on a junction with equal-priorized ways. In this case, no voice hint is generated (intentional). I guess Arndt decided so in order to reduce unnecessary voice hints.
.........
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Poutnik

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Apr 25, 2016, 12:44:40 PM4/25/16
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Hmm... Too talky navigation was until now, when a Locus user was informed about near every curve of the GPX based road.
A hint to ensure user which way to take if both seam possible is not IMHO too talkative.

What is needed is to evaluate relative drawbacks of false positives ( excessive hints when all is clear)  and  false negatives ( missed hints causing off-route states) and to make good trade-off with them.

Dne pondělí 25. dubna 2016 17:40:06 UTC+2 0709 napsal(a):
Who is afraid of a too "talky" crazy phone gps on a bike ? I do.
After the newest impressive  "toy" is in use for a while, probably most of us ?
Or how to present more available (future) information ? 
See attached pdf. Only a suggestion, a possibility. 

.
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abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 25, 2016, 4:13:13 PM4/25/16
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Am Montag, 25. April 2016 10:37:19 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:

@all: I'd like to discuss the current behaviour when going straight (<15°) on a junction with equal-priorized ways. In this case, no voice hint is generated (intentional). I guess Arndt decided so in order to reduce unnecessary voice hints.
I created some more testtracks in Locus yesterday and I found a situation where I might miss the right track because of a missing nav hint.

well, yes, I did some work in exactly this direction. It includes using the keep-right/keep-left hint for such forges, and, even more important, a filter along the track summing up many turn into one hint. The keep-right/left logic also makes car instructions useful.

This is nasty stuff and full of heuristics, this is why it's not yet on a release quality level.

I got very valuable input from Volker, including a working Osmand format and logic to create real roundabout hints. I'm not done with the merge, but I want to provide you another patch-version so you can see the actual state:

  http://brouter.de/brouter_bin/voice_patch3.zip

This also is a proposal for the interfacing problem: the profiles in that zip-file have turninstructionmode = 1 = auto, that means the format is choosen according to the waypoint-database in use.

For the call via the AIDL-interface I implementet a parameter "turnInstructionFormat" to select the format as part of the request. So that's a working solution for the interfacing problem: Locus and OsmAnd select their format and process the turn-instructions in their native formats.

 sorry for yet another patch, but I think finally we can get the relase out.

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Zossebart

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Apr 27, 2016, 8:22:40 AM4/27/16
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Hey,


On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 10:13:13 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am Montag, 25. April 2016 10:37:19 UTC+2 schrieb Zossebart:

@all: I'd like to discuss the current behaviour when going straight (<15°) on a junction with equal-priorized ways. In this case, no voice hint is generated (intentional). I guess Arndt decided so in order to reduce unnecessary voice hints.
I created some more testtracks in Locus yesterday and I found a situation where I might miss the right track because of a missing nav hint.

well, yes, I did some work in exactly this direction. It includes using the keep-right/keep-left hint for such forges, and, even more important, a filter along the track summing up many turn into one hint. The keep-right/left logic also makes car instructions useful.

This is nasty stuff and full of heuristics, this is why it's not yet on a release quality level.

I got very valuable input from Volker, including a working Osmand format and logic to create real roundabout hints. I'm not done with the merge, but I want to provide you another patch-version so you can see the actual state:

  http://brouter.de/brouter_bin/voice_patch3.zip
Thanks for the new patch version. I calculated some routes with it and got mixed results:

The keep right/left hints seem to work as expected so far. They also have a dedicated symbol in Locus (nice).

Also, roundabouts are summed up as "straight" or "right" instructions, which seems to work nice and reduces the voice hints.

In one situation, I got a "straight" hint instead of a "left" or "right" at a "simple" junction, but don't remember exactly where it was.

I also had a turn announced as "slight left", which was definitely "left" in previous versions (angle roughly 90°).

And then there are some situations of short "zigzag" combinations, which are announced as only one instruction at the first turn ("straight", "slight right"). I assume it's the "summary filter" in action? I mean, this is definitely a useful enhancement of the algorithmus, but maybe it has to be tuned a little bit more? I observed this for example at a zigzag where the middle part (between the two turns) was ca. 30m. I'm sure I wouldn't see this as "straight" in reality. Or is it difficult to "shorten" the filter, because then it wouldn't be possible to detect and announce roundabouts in just one instruction?

Anyway, great progress. With some finetuning, this is definitely going in the right direction.

This also is a proposal for the interfacing problem: the profiles in that zip-file have turninstructionmode = 1 = auto, that means the format is choosen according to the waypoint-database in use.

Confirmed, seem to work with Locus at least.

 
For the call via the AIDL-interface I implementet a parameter "turnInstructionFormat" to select the format as part of the request. So that's a working solution for the interfacing problem: Locus and OsmAnd select their format and process the turn-instructions in their native formats.

Sounds great! So what exactly are the missing peaces in Locus for example to support this? In my understanding:
1.  the app has to request its own format over the AIDL interface via "turnInstructionFormat"
2. the app has to accept and process voice hints in its own format as answer over the AIDL interface

Is there a value "none" or similar planned for the turnInstructionFormat? Because Locus for example has the option to disable the generation of turninstructions and brouter could support this mode with a "disable" or "none" format.

regards,
Zossebart

 

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 27, 2016, 1:42:09 PM4/27/16
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On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 2:22:40 PM UTC+2, Zossebart wrote:
 
I observed this for example at a zigzag where the middle part (between the two turns) was ca. 30m. I'm sure I wouldn't see this as "straight" in reality. Or is it difficult to "shorten" the filter, because then it wouldn't be possible to detect and announce roundabouts in just one instruction?


yes. The filter currently uses (hardcoded) 40m catching range. 40m seems to be the maximum e.g. for the length of the "oneway-triangles" that connect to roundabouts or other junctions. So to protect your zig-zag from being merged into a go-straight, it needs more then just reducing the catching range. It needs a better idea. But that makes knots in your brain, just as a warning...

Explicit hints for roundabouts are o.k. as well (with correct exit count...) but not enabled in this patch-version. This is because there's a nasty bug in Locus announcing them (Version 3.16.2.) So maybe I have to make to parameters accible via the profile: the catching range and a switch to select between explicit roundabouts and normal, angle-based instructions.

Zossebart

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Apr 29, 2016, 9:23:38 AM4/29/16
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On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 7:42:09 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:

yes. The filter currently uses (hardcoded) 40m catching range. 40m seems to be the maximum e.g. for the length of the "oneway-triangles" that connect to roundabouts or other junctions. So to protect your zig-zag from being merged into a go-straight, it needs more then just reducing the catching range. It needs a better idea. But that makes knots in your brain, just as a warning...
Ok. Is this merging only needed for roundabout-handling, or do you plan to use it for other situations, too? For very small zigzags (sometimes due to incorrect geometry in the OSM data), it might actually be helpful.
But you can't know if it's a roundabout, a small zigzag or a large zigzag in the turninstruction-algorithm, right? Because this algorithm only evaluates geometry and has no idea of the OSM tags associated with the ways (after all, it's intentional that only the profile-part works with the OSM-tags).
Yeah, the knots in my brain are getting more and more ;-)


Explicit hints for roundabouts are o.k. as well (with correct exit count...) but not enabled in this patch-version. This is because there's a nasty bug in Locus announcing them (Version 3.16.2.)
What's this bug exactly? Did you report it to the locus developers? Menion is fixing bugs really fast most of the time.
 
What about my questions about the interfacing? Should we start talking to the app developers about the changes needed, or is it too early?

Regards,
Zossebart

 

abre...@googlemail.com

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Apr 29, 2016, 1:20:27 PM4/29/16
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On Friday, April 29, 2016 at 3:23:38 PM UTC+2, Zossebart wrote:


On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 7:42:09 PM UTC+2, abre...@googlemail.com wrote:
Ok. Is this merging only needed for roundabout-handling, or do you plan to use it for other situations, too?

The most challenging situation is when hitting a complex junction (roundabout or not) on an accompaining cycleway. Maybe you didn't realize that you are supposed to be on the cycleway. In that situation, micro-instructions on how to zig-zag along the cycleway are confusing, because what you want to know is that you should turn left, from a more distant perspective. This is what this filter is made for.

 
Because this algorithm only evaluates geometry and has no idea of the OSM tags associated with the ways (after all, it's intentional that only the profile-part works with the OSM-tags).

Yes, but the meta-information extracted from the tags is (meanwhile) more than just way-priority. It's also oneway-information and flags for is-roundabout, is link-type-highway and isGoodForCars.
 
Explicit hints for roundabouts are o.k. as well (with correct exit count...) but not enabled in this patch-version. This is because there's a nasty bug in Locus announcing them (Version 3.16.2.)
What's this bug exactly? Did you report it to the locus developers? Menion is fixing bugs really fast most of the time.

If after a (correct) roundabount announcement ( "Enter roundabout, third exit" ) you hit a normal turn, you hear the last exit count again instead of the next turn.
 
 
What about my questions about the interfacing? Should we start talking to the app developers about the changes needed, or is it too early?

I'm going to write an answer in locus-dev-forum, including the interfacing contract and this bug report.

For OsmAnd, no chance to get the core-team to do the change, they want a pull-request. There's another open issue in the OsmAnd Adapter regarding via-points that also needs an update.
 

abre...@googlemail.com

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May 6, 2016, 10:30:59 AM5/6/16
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Am Montag, 25. April 2016 22:13:13 UTC+2 schrieb abrensch:

 sorry for yet another patch, but I think finally we can get the relase out.


so, finally.... a new regular release 1.4 containing the turn instructions:

http://brouter.de/brouter/revisions.html

compared to the last patch, only small modifications in the algorithm

- I added some trigger's where I missed them while test-driving, especially for the case when you turn on a high-prio way, but there's a lower prio going clearly straight.

- I enabled the roundabout hints (but you can disable them via "assign turnInstructionRoundabouts = false")

- catching range configurable ( "assign turnInstructionCatchingRange = 40" )

- added more "missing" streets to the geometries (e.g. motor-roads in the fastbike profile), to get e.g. the roundabout exit counts correct

I replied to menion in the locus-dev forum about that release, the interfacing concept and Locus's roundabout bug, so I think if he comes up with a Locus update that is able to use the turn-instructions from the AIDL-interface, then this is really cool stuff.

I did not really change the (somtimes confusing) behavior of merging close-by hints to a single angle, but I think there will be more development on the algorithm (but not by me for the time beeing)

The main achievement now is that there is a "clean"release, with consistent sources in github, deployed on brouter-web, and with turninstructions in all profiles (except shortest)

regards Arndt

Poutnik

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May 7, 2016, 5:51:26 AM5/7/16
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Hi Arndt,

first, thanks a lot for the latest development,
I am sure it will be great for my medium-long range
a-phone-in-the-pocket trekking.

I have noticed you have implemented new logical operators
like greater.

> assign isgoodforcars = if greater priorityclassifier 6 then true .....

I like it a lot. If available in pat, I could avoid workarounds
in my Hiking profiles for SAC scale processing.

Are there more ?

I have noticed they are not reflected
in the latest ( May 6 ) developer guide file yet,
probably for just being fresh new...

Poutnik

Dne 06/05/2016 v 16:30 abrensch via OSM Android bikerouting napsal(a):
>
> The main achievement now is that there is a "clean"release, with
> consistent sources in github, deployed on brouter-web, and with
> turninstructions in all profiles (except shortest)
>
> regards Arndt
>

abre...@googlemail.com

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May 9, 2016, 9:49:57 AM5/9/16
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On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 11:51:26 AM UTC+2, Poutnik wrote:

I have noticed you have implemented new logical operators
like greater.
... 
Are there more ?


The new one actually is "min". "greater" was around for longer, I should
become more consistent on that, i admit. If you have any more
on your wishlist, just tell me.

Just for consistency, I should add at least "lesser" and "xor" (exclusive or).

Poutnik

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May 9, 2016, 10:42:43 AM5/9/16
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Dne pondělí 9. května 2016 15:49:57 UTC+2 abre...@googlemail.com napsal(a):

The new one actually is "min". "greater" was around for longer, I should
become more consistent on that, i admit. If you have any more
on your wishlist, just tell me.

Just for consistency, I should add at least "lesser" and "xor" (exclusive or).

Well MIN and MAX looks like twins, but I reminded  myself only MAX was there.

I would definitely add SUB(tract), as I was forced to use workaround.

sub A B   done as  add A multiply ( B -1 )

Perhaps as well divide ( DIV could be confused with integer dividing ).

Lesser could be good as well. Greater/lesserORequal could be useful, but probably not necessery.
Equivalents could be also GT,GE,LT, LE

I suppose xor can find its use in navigation hint processing, or in complex bitwise flags.

Poutnik

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May 9, 2016, 10:44:55 AM5/9/16
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Fix
sub A B   done as  add A ( multiply  B -1 )

Dne pondělí 9. května 2016 16:42:43 UTC+2 Poutnik napsal(a):
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