Help me pass a monumental energy bill

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Chris Abraham

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Oct 25, 2007, 2:29:48 PM10/25/07
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Hey, do you know that Congress has a chance to pass a monumental
energy bill? We're talking about a bill that would free us from
foreign oil, raise fuel economy standards, increase renewable energy
and combat global warming. But lobbyists are trying to get Bush to
threaten a veto.

I am working with a coalition to make sure the Senate's fuel economy
standard of 35 mpg and House's 15% renewable electricity standard make
it into the final bill. We can't let Reid and Pelosi back down to Bush
and the auto lobby. Sign the petition at http://www.energybill2007.org
and help save the energy bill!

MEG

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Oct 25, 2007, 2:41:15 PM10/25/07
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> and the auto lobby. Sign the petition athttp://www.energybill2007.org

> and help save the energy bill!

You can't just legislate gas milage. An SUV that got 35 MPG would do
0 to 60 in 30 minutes and be made of tinfoil and plastic. Raise the
tax on gasoline by $5 a gallon, try and sell that.

Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 3:14:48 PM10/25/07
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:41:15 -0000, MEG <ekru...@gmail.com> mumbled:

Rotsa ruck on the recesion it would cause...

Festivus

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:12:40 PM10/25/07
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Sure you can. It just means that there won't be any more SUVs, least
wise not the gas guzzling consumption trophies out there today. Quite a
fine outcome, far as I can tell. It'll be like driving in the slow lane
on the Autobahn - which is more relaxing than driving in any lane here
in the states anyway.

--
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the
world, and do not find in our particular
superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike,
founded upon fables and mythologies."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Festivus

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:14:55 PM10/25/07
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Festivus wrote:
> MEG wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 11:29 am, Chris Abraham <energybill2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey, do you know that Congress has a chance to pass a monumental
>>> energy bill? We're talking about a bill that would free us from
>>> foreign oil, raise fuel economy standards, increase renewable energy
>>> and combat global warming. But lobbyists are trying to get Bush to
>>> threaten a veto.
>>>
>>> I am working with a coalition to make sure the Senate's fuel economy
>>> standard of 35 mpg and House's 15% renewable electricity standard make
>>> it into the final bill. We can't let Reid and Pelosi back down to Bush
>>> and the auto lobby. Sign the petition athttp://www.energybill2007.org
>>> and help save the energy bill!
>>
>> You can't just legislate gas milage. An SUV that got 35 MPG would do
>> 0 to 60 in 30 minutes and be made of tinfoil and plastic. Raise the
>> tax on gasoline by $5 a gallon, try and sell that.
>>
>
> Sure you can. It just means that there won't be any more SUVs, least
> wise not the gas guzzling consumption trophies out there today. Quite a
> fine outcome, far as I can tell. It'll be like driving in the slow lane
> on the Autobahn - which is more relaxing than driving in any lane here
> in the states anyway.
>

Die right now, you socialist traitor child raping amoral atheistic ACLU
card carrying leftwing psychopathic puppy molester.

Just thought I'd save Spammy the trouble.

Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:31:58 PM10/25/07
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:12:40 -0700, Festivus <auto...@hushmail.com>
mumbled:

>there won't be any more SUVs, least
>wise not the gas guzzling consumption trophies out there today.

Wanna bet?

Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:32:47 PM10/25/07
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:14:55 -0700, Festivus <auto...@hushmail.com>
mumbled:

>Festivus wrote:
>> MEG wrote:
>>> On Oct 25, 11:29 am, Chris Abraham <energybill2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey, do you know that Congress has a chance to pass a monumental
>>>> energy bill? We're talking about a bill that would free us from
>>>> foreign oil, raise fuel economy standards, increase renewable energy
>>>> and combat global warming. But lobbyists are trying to get Bush to
>>>> threaten a veto.
>>>>
>>>> I am working with a coalition to make sure the Senate's fuel economy
>>>> standard of 35 mpg and House's 15% renewable electricity standard make
>>>> it into the final bill. We can't let Reid and Pelosi back down to Bush
>>>> and the auto lobby. Sign the petition athttp://www.energybill2007.org
>>>> and help save the energy bill!
>>>
>>> You can't just legislate gas milage. An SUV that got 35 MPG would do
>>> 0 to 60 in 30 minutes and be made of tinfoil and plastic. Raise the
>>> tax on gasoline by $5 a gallon, try and sell that.
>>>
>>
>> Sure you can. It just means that there won't be any more SUVs, least
>> wise not the gas guzzling consumption trophies out there today. Quite a
>> fine outcome, far as I can tell. It'll be like driving in the slow lane
>> on the Autobahn - which is more relaxing than driving in any lane here
>> in the states anyway.
>>
>
>Die right now, you socialist traitor child raping amoral atheistic ACLU
>card carrying leftwing psychopathic puppy molester.
>
>Just thought I'd save Spammy the trouble.

Least you know what you are...

Festivus

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:35:56 PM10/25/07
to

There will always be those with enough money to bypass "the system", no
doubt. What will happen, either through higher taxes or mandated
mileage, is that the US fleet will begin to resemble that of Europe.

Go drive there sometime. Everyone seems to get along just fine on cars
that Americans look down their noses at.

Festivus

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:39:03 PM10/25/07
to

I go to all that trouble, in what is being reviewed as a "brilliant" and
"persuasive" tour de force of satirical showmanship, and that's the
response I get?

Classic Spammy. Ya gotta hand it to the man - he sticks by his old
moldy cue cards come hell or high water. What an icon!

Bill Shatzer

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Oct 25, 2007, 5:55:57 PM10/25/07
to

Maybe then, folks could make do with fewer SUVs?

Still, the nice thing about CAFE standards is that a 50 mpg Prius-type
balances out a 20 mpg SUV. Iffen they sold one Prius for every SUV,
they'd make the standard easily, without any need for tinfoil.

Nor are they stuck with 20 mpg SUVs - the Ford Escape 4wd gets a
combined 31 mpg, the Toyota Highlander, 29 mpg. Neither is far short of
the 35 mpg standard both have zero to sixty times considerably short of
30 minutes - the Ford for instance has a 0-60 time of 10 seconds while
the Toyota's time is a neck-snapping 6.6 seconds.

> Raise the
> tax on gasoline by $5 a gallon, try and sell that.

Might work, but the CAFE approach is more direct and doesn't punish the
owners of existing vehicles. Plus, if a manufacturer fails to meet its
CAFE standards, the surcharge kicks in which effectively raises the
prices of its gas guzzlers.

Peace and justice,


Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 7:06:05 PM10/25/07
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:35:56 -0700, Festivus <auto...@hushmail.com>
mumbled:

>Bannon wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:12:40 -0700, Festivus <auto...@hushmail.com>
>> mumbled:
>>
>>> there won't be any more SUVs, least
>>> wise not the gas guzzling consumption trophies out there today.
>>
>> Wanna bet?
>
>There will always be those with enough money to bypass "the system", no
>doubt. What will happen, either through higher taxes or mandated
>mileage, is that the US fleet will begin to resemble that of Europe.
>
>Go drive there sometime. Everyone seems to get along just fine on cars
>that Americans look down their noses at.

What will really happen is:

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/motornews.shtml

2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid
Using GM's "Two-Mode Full Hybrid" system, derived from its transit
buses, these big-UTES are designed to maximize fuel savings for both
urban and rural lifestyles. Like the typical gas-electric hybrid
vehicle, the Tahoe and Yukon hybrids will enjoy a substantial boost in
mileage in stop-and-go city driving. That means they can start off and
drive at low speeds on electric power alone. Plus, the gasoline V8
engine will automatically shut down when the vehicle is stopped. But,
unlike the typical hybrid, the "Two-mode" Tahoe and Yukon will also
provide an electric motor power boost during rapid acceleration such
as passing.

We've driven a Tahoe Hybrid at highway speeds and the power kick is
comparable to a jet engine's afterburner.

Along with more aerodynamic body-work, the Tahoe and Yukon Hybrid's
6.0-liter V8-engine also uses GM's Active Fuel Management system. It
improved fuel economy further during low-load highway cruise by
cutting off fuel to 4 of 8 cylinders.

The net result is up to a 25% gain in gas mileage. Government Fuel
Economy ratings are 21 City and 22 Highway for 2-wheel drive Hybrid
models. That compares to 14 and 20 for the standard Tahoe and Yukon.

4-wheel drive hybrids are rated at 20 miles-per-gallon both city and
highway. That's up from 14 and 19.

Now you know the "rest of the story" , you dummy.

Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 7:06:55 PM10/25/07
to
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:39:03 -0700, Festivus <auto...@hushmail.com>
mumbled:


What'd ya want, peanuts and extra time in the seal pool?

Bannon

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Oct 25, 2007, 7:07:49 PM10/25/07
to
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:55:57 -0700, Bill Shatzer
<bshat...@comcast.net> mumbled:

>MEG wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 11:29 am, Chris Abraham <energybill2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hey, do you know that Congress has a chance to pass a monumental
>>>energy bill? We're talking about a bill that would free us from
>>>foreign oil, raise fuel economy standards, increase renewable energy
>>>and combat global warming. But lobbyists are trying to get Bush to
>>>threaten a veto.
>
>>>I am working with a coalition to make sure the Senate's fuel economy
>>>standard of 35 mpg and House's 15% renewable electricity standard make
>>>it into the final bill. We can't let Reid and Pelosi back down to Bush
>>>and the auto lobby. Sign the petition athttp://www.energybill2007.org
>>>and help save the energy bill!
>
>> You can't just legislate gas milage. An SUV that got 35 MPG would do
>> 0 to 60 in 30 minutes and be made of tinfoil and plastic.
>
>Maybe then, folks could make do with fewer SUVs?

Shaddup Jed:

Chris Abraham

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Oct 26, 2007, 2:16:29 PM10/26/07
to
It is frustrating that here in America we tend to be "all or nothing"
sort of people. We all agree that the Energy Bill isn't ideal, and it
isn't as aggressive as anyone wants -- Ireland is pushing for 33%
renewable!

But we're America and we're sand-bagged by the Auto Alliance and other
lobbyists and PACs who are dumping bags of cash and influence on
really watering down a bill that can actually do some good.

All Toyota will have to do, actually is develop a 100 mpg car to
compensate for the Lexus line and the Land Cruiser...

The bill talks about averages, so really, if Toyota puts out a car
with 200 mpg then they're welcome to produce a V12 super-car Lexus
with 8 mpg which will still follow the more aggressive CAFE standards.

If Toyota wants to, it can continue to take from Prius to pay Paul!

Some might say, "If I have better fuel economy, I'm going to drive
more."

Well, I will tell you that I bought a dream car: a 5-series BMW. But I
don't commute, I work from home, and it basically sits there because I
live in a city, DC, and I own a bike, single speed. I pay big bucks
for it and it only gets 24 mpg (it is an inline 6), but it is
basically a "date car."

You're right, I am definitely holier than thou with my car versus the
Prius driver who commutes 40+-miles/day, that's for sure.

What about diesel? I had a 1980 Mercedes-Benz 300D diesel and man, I
could drive from DC all the way to Rhode Island on one tank of fuel
and start heading back!

I just discovered this over on the Diesel Page:

"In the July 2000 issue of Four Wheeler magazine, they tested a 2000
GMC Yukon XL 2500, equipped with the new 6.0L gas V-8. To quote Four
Wheeler, "During unladen city/highway blasts, we averaged nearly 12.5
miles per gallon with a best tankful of 13.05 - quite good compared to
the last big-block we tested, which averaged 10.8 mpg." A diesel
engine is the best powerplant for a large vehicle, and this explains
why. Our 2001 GMC 2500HD Duramax/Allison equipped 4x4 crew cab
delivers 17-18 mpg during local driving and 20 mpg on the Interstate
at 75-mph."

But we really don't have diesel cars here, even though the gas mileage
is much better in most cases and the "dirtiness" of diesels have been
corrected (through innovations and technology).

So, there are many ways to effect this. And yes, a $5 charge-per-
gallon on gas would surely either lower mileage or spur innovation, or
both, but it would also completely screw the economy and probably
start a riot (don't mess with Americans when it comes to gas or beer,
remember that).

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Why don't you consider backing this
bill, http://www.energybill2007.org

Better the bird in Congress than two in the bush. And because of
slippery-slope politics, every incremental move towards efficiency and
sustainability will be another step towards yet another, more
aggressive, bill.

Capitol Hill is better treated like the frog in the cool pan... heat
it slowly with a goal in mind because if you turn the heat up to high,
then the frog will just jump out.

I know, I live here.

Gatt

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Oct 26, 2007, 2:30:07 PM10/26/07
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"Chris Abraham" <cabr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193422589....@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...


> All Toyota will have to do, actually is develop a 100 mpg car to
> compensate for the Lexus line and the Land Cruiser...

That would do it, but it has to be cool. Check these out.

http://www.3wheelers.com/enter.html


jptrenn

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Oct 26, 2007, 4:08:49 PM10/26/07
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> bill,http://www.energybill2007.org

>
> Better the bird in Congress than two in the bush. And because of
> slippery-slope politics, every incremental move towards efficiency and
> sustainability will be another step towards yet another, more
> aggressive, bill.
>
> Capitol Hill is better treated like the frog in the cool pan... heat
> it slowly with a goal in mind because if you turn the heat up to high,
> then the frog will just jump out.
>
> I know, I live here.


>From what I understand, CAFE standards were originally put into place
during the Arab oil embargo in the early 1970's. That's over 30 years
ago. And the last regular increase took place in 1985 - 22 years
ago. It remains at 27.5.

Now we've been in two wars in the Middle East since then. At least in
part because our strategic national interest lies in easy access to
oil from that region. And now we see that global warming or global
climate change or whatever you want to call it is a threat.

Now in those 22 years (plus at least another 10 before that marking
the birth of the legislation), we've made tremendous advances in
medicine, in technology, etc. We've even got this internet thingy
that we can all be connected to one another.

Now some are trying to tell me that auto companies can't work with
their engineers to get significant better gas mileage...over another
13 years?! It will be 35 years from 1985 to 2020...please. Pass
those standards!!

Chris Abraham

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Oct 26, 2007, 4:26:15 PM10/26/07
to
On Oct 26, 4:08 pm, jptrenn <Jonathan_Tr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Now some are trying to tell me that auto companies can't work with
> their engineers to get significant better gas mileage...over another
> 13 years?! It will be 35 years from 1985 to 2020...please. Pass
> those standards!!

Mate, Japanese cars used to be "econoboxes" and it used to be that
full-sized pickups were too expensive to import from Japan because of
protectionism -- and so for the longest time you couldn't get a Toyota
Land Cruiser unless you did a special order -- and that was as
recently as the mid-to-late 90s -- you could get a Land Cruiser but it
wasn't easy -- and the easily-accessible full-sized trucks were non-
existent from Japan -- only the "live forever" Toyota Tacoma was
ubiquitous!

Anyway, things are worse now than they have ever bed. Jonathan,
you're assuming that this country has any desire to "keep on
improving" towards better fuel efficiency. No! There is no desire at
all -- there is just a lot of opportunism. Nobody even mentions
minivans, but what is less fuel efficient than a brick on wheels?

So, yes. Were it not for the 70s and the gas crisis, there would
never have Japanese or European cars of any sort in the US, really.
Now, were it not for the Prius, Toyota may never have become the #1
car maker in the Universe.

Now, who is going to take all the cheese? Who will innovate in such a
way that will take the cheese away from even Toyota, which is
apparently only making the Prius in order to compensate for the
Tundra.

So, this is going to end up being an amazingly profitable time for
whomever is going to truly innovate. Sadly, this is a perfect time
for US car makers to take their cheese back, but it doesn't really
look like it, does it?

Well, I know I am ranting here. Happy to be here! And, if you
haven't yet, please sign the Energy Bill 2007 petition please,
http://www.energybill2007.org -- cheers!

jptrenn

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Oct 26, 2007, 5:00:50 PM10/26/07
to

You sound like a free market capitalist environmentalist. You make
sense.

We see it with changes in corporate strategies (going more green) and
in state governments and with many personal buying habits. I would
think after another few years of conflict in areas that have oil and
more and more coming out on pollution, the public will start to demand
change...through their buying habits a bit more.

The market will drive (pardon the pun) some of the change and the new
standards will be the final push for these companies to change. Or as
you say - they'll have their cheese snatched form them.

Chris Abraham

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Nov 6, 2007, 8:18:07 AM11/6/07
to
On Oct 26, 10:00 pm, jptrenn <Jonathan_Tr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You sound like a free market capitalist environmentalist. You make
> sense.

I am a free market capitalist environmentalist. I believe in a non-
zero sum game -- if we pollute our own feed and water, we're done for
-- a ruined eco-system is good for the market. Also, since everything
has become commoditized, nothing is worth anything. An environmental
movement is just good for business: organics are premium, biodiesel is
premium, free range is premium, renewables are a premium. They're
actually very good for profit margin. I mean, how else besides
creating a hybrid could Toyota get Hollywood celebs to be seen what is
actually an ugly shitbox of a car!

Check out this stuff:

http://www.smnr.us/lobbyday
http://www.smnr.us/net

Merryweather Louis

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Nov 6, 2007, 10:29:53 AM11/6/07
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On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 05:18:07 -0800, Chris Abraham <cabr...@gmail.com>
mumbled:

And this:

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/

Phoenix Motorcars manufactures zero-emission, freeway-speed fleet
vehicles. It is an early leader in the mass production of
full-function, green electric trucks and SUVs for commercial fleet
use. Based in Ontario, California, Phoenix Motorcars uses the
NanoSafe? battery, a non-toxic, all-battery solution to eliminate
noise and toxic vehicle emissions that contribute to air pollution.

Green Fleet Advantages:

Zero emission
All-battery power NanoSafe™ production battery pack system
100+ miles per charge
Speeds of 95 m.p.h. carrying four passengers and full payload
High torque: 0 to 60 m.p.h. in 10 seconds
Long battery pack life: 250,000 miles
Off board charger: 10 minutes to recharge to 95% capacity
On board charger: 6 hours to recharge from 220V plug-in
Available configurations:
Mid-Size 4-Door Pickup (SUT)
Mid-Size SUV

Lobby Dosser

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Nov 7, 2007, 3:43:04 AM11/7/07
to
Merryweather Louis <ra...@fog.always> wrote:

"Q: Where are the vehicles manufactured?
A: Vehicle assembly will take place in Ontario, California."

WTF ARE THEY ****MANUFACTURED****?!! What part of Manufactured didn't
they understand?

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