Godwin's Law and electric bikes.
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Craig
Apr 20, 2011, 10:43:39 AM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
Godwin's Law:
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or
Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made
by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] which has become an Internet adage. It
states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a
comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other
words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough
time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone
inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing
it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
I propose Craig's Law:
Given enough time, in any online discussion about electric bikes-
regardless of topic or scope- someone inevitably criticizes some point
(or bike) in the discussion by referencing beliefs held by the small
group of home-built electric bike enthusiasts at Endless Sphere.
:)
Craig Taber
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or
Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made
by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] which has become an Internet adage. It
states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a
comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other
words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough
time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone
inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing
it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
I propose Craig's Law:
Given enough time, in any online discussion about electric bikes-
regardless of topic or scope- someone inevitably criticizes some point
(or bike) in the discussion by referencing beliefs held by the small
group of home-built electric bike enthusiasts at Endless Sphere.
:)
Craig Taber
deerfencer
Apr 20, 2011, 11:01:19 AM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
LOL!
I'd be guilty of that one, with one addendum--ES is not such a small
group but probably represents for better or worse the most democratic
sampling of e-bike enthusiasts around the globe--at least that I'm
aware of. I find it to be a vibrant and entertaining forum when taken
with a grain of salt, kind of like the Howard Stern radio show of e-
madness. (Plus, it's always so easy to find some tool who's put his
foot in his mouth to take apart <g>!)
Seriously, though, ES is a terrific resource with some very decent and
informed contributors, several of them serious engineers. Long live
the Sphere!
LH
I'd be guilty of that one, with one addendum--ES is not such a small
group but probably represents for better or worse the most democratic
sampling of e-bike enthusiasts around the globe--at least that I'm
aware of. I find it to be a vibrant and entertaining forum when taken
with a grain of salt, kind of like the Howard Stern radio show of e-
madness. (Plus, it's always so easy to find some tool who's put his
foot in his mouth to take apart <g>!)
Seriously, though, ES is a terrific resource with some very decent and
informed contributors, several of them serious engineers. Long live
the Sphere!
LH
Craig
Apr 20, 2011, 12:29:30 PM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
Larry -
I am often entertained by some of the posts, and you are correct,
there are some smart engineers in there and I LOVE that people are
passionate about EV's. Thats a good thing.
The part I have a hard time with is the glaring omissions in some of
the comparisons I have seen- and the general feeling that a homebuilt
electric bike that is "better than an Optibike" can be built for
(insert low price here)
I have yet to see such a creation, but that is apparently a minor
point.
Craig Taber
I am often entertained by some of the posts, and you are correct,
there are some smart engineers in there and I LOVE that people are
passionate about EV's. Thats a good thing.
The part I have a hard time with is the glaring omissions in some of
the comparisons I have seen- and the general feeling that a homebuilt
electric bike that is "better than an Optibike" can be built for
(insert low price here)
I have yet to see such a creation, but that is apparently a minor
point.
Craig Taber
lowco2
Apr 20, 2011, 12:48:17 PM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
Craig,
I thnik your law should also contain something like
"at some point, someone will compare an existing commercial product to
vapor ware (e.g. "someone could take A and B and C and make a bike
that would kick D's butt.")
Show me, don't tell me.
--J
> > > Craig Taber- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thnik your law should also contain something like
"at some point, someone will compare an existing commercial product to
vapor ware (e.g. "someone could take A and B and C and make a bike
that would kick D's butt.")
Show me, don't tell me.
--J
>
> - Show quoted text -
chessmonster
Apr 20, 2011, 1:23:42 PM4/20/11
to lowco2, Optibike Owners Group
To my knowledge i am the first endless sphere member to have both home built bikes and a top of the line opti.
So you shouldnt belittle me too much since it seems i am the only one sitting on both worlds and know the pluses and minuses to both. I could pipe on an on how great my homebuilds are but i am holding back because this is opti group. You really dont want me to post detailed comparision...racing videos etc...you really dont. I am trying my best to do no damage to opti.
Where where you guys when i needed you when i was being flamed over there on endless sphere for raving the good points of the opti? Why dont you guys join and post?
The endless sphere group is a wealth of information...heck the stealth bomber was virtually developed over there by a user named Hal. There is so much information over there it will make your head spin if you spend some time there. Some really really smart people and they are at the cutting edge of some amazing stuff. They know all the best batteries, motors, drive units....and they are sharing information openly.
They would never spend 12k on a bike....but if they did....watch out. I wouldnt want to compete if they put there heads together.
Its a completely different mind set then over here....but i wouldnt beliddle those guys... i think there are more geniuses over there in one forum sharing information than you can ever guess...literal electric geniuses.
For example one 20 year old kid developed a complete carbon fiber monocoque framed bike that he built out of a garage and looks spectacular. His budget...2k...just one example of many amazing rides coming out of that place. The poor kid couldt afford top notch components but he developed a bike that would compete head to head with the opti...out of carbon fiber!!!
There is really really good information over there. I would be suprised if opti engineers are not required to drop in there all the time for spying sessions.
Its silly to belittle so endless sphere guys just because most of them are broke as jokes and are trying to build a ebike on a budget. Trust me the high budget bikes over there are nothing less than spectacular...and i own 3 of them....and by high budget i mean 6 thousand. I wont post pics and specs etc because this is the opti group and i respect that....but trust me i got some really impressive bikes that def compare head to head as the opti at the same weight. And i owe it to the sphere guys helping me build my ebike masterpieces :)
Ken Cline
Apr 20, 2011, 2:02:20 PM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
On 20 Apr 2011, at 11:23 AM, chessmonster wrote:
> To my knowledge i am the first endless sphere member to have both home built bikes and a top of the line opti.
>
> So you shouldnt belittle me too much since it seems i am the only one sitting on both worlds and know the pluses and minuses to both. I could pipe on an on how great my homebuilds are but i am holding back because this is opti group. You really dont want me to post detailed comparision...racing videos etc...you really dont. I am trying my best to do no damage to opti.
Don't hold back. Please. It is too amusing!
Just remember that Opti is not making racing motorcycles. If you want to be put in your place, I'll hook you with an ebike guy friend of mine, but don't bother to show unless you cruise at 70mph. He's running 300 amps into an Etek motor and leaves long burn outs when he likes. The beast even has working pedals.
The difference between Opti and most homebuilts is the kind of efficiency and reliability that got two of the to the top of Pikes Peak last time around. The same buddy attempted Pikes, but his hub motor (different bike) melted half way up. An Optibike will continue going at reduced power if it starts to get too hot. I keep looking for bikes that offer better efficiency than an Opti, but, in its power class, I have yet to find anything. Opti's battery system is industrial strength, and tyhe list goes on. Sure, you can build a dragster that beats Opti on a 1/4 mile track, but I bet you are not even close on the criteria that made me choose Opti in the first place.
As you have seen, there is another event where Opti's can be beat: Steep hill climbing. Another friend, with another Etek (this one on a long wheelbase frame), can climb straight up where my Opti spins its wheels and falls to the side of the trail. The problem isn't power (I have a nice low gear) but the limits of climbing stability on a bike with general purpose geometry. The amazing thing about the comparison of these two bikes is that the Opti can usually keep up despite the other machine's monster motor. Better handling and the higher efficiency of MBB drive make up for most of the difference in raw power. He could easily go faster with a higher voltage pack, but it would cut into efficiency. Oh yeah, he only made it part way up Pikes Peak, too. Ran out of juice.
chessmonster
Apr 20, 2011, 2:02:50 PM4/20/11
to lowco2, Optibike Owners Group
Let me give you another example of a "sphere build" that is quicker to watch (you dont have to read) and you will get the idea.
This is a 6k build and uses a state of the are RC motor that is 95 percent efficient...in the video you will see this thing looks like a hell of a lot of fun.
Of course this machine is not marketable...it is prob way too dangerous...please watch long enough to see high speed passes:
This is a 6k build and uses a state of the are RC motor that is 95 percent efficient...in the video you will see this thing looks like a hell of a lot of fun.
Of course this machine is not marketable...it is prob way too dangerous...please watch long enough to see high speed passes:
Anyway to the average joe on the street...they would be wowed by that machine...i think optibike should release one of these in 2012.
chessmonster
Apr 20, 2011, 2:13:20 PM4/20/11
to lowco2, Optibike Owners Group
Ken dont hold back?...dont tempt me.
Why do you think my opti 850r is for sale after just 2 weeks of ownership???
Etechs suck and are old technology.
I would post comparisions of bikes I own and ride right now that compare at the same weight and efficiency as the opti...trust me opti probably doesnt want me posting that data...it wouldnt be too amusing.
I have had gone out on many rides with my opti and my bmc's and not once has someone said i like the opti more. My machines look better, are the same weight, and perform better. When we go out on a group no one wants to ride the opti because it lags so far behind the other riders....you have to pedal like hell just not to annoy the bmc riders who have to stop and wait all the time no matter how hard you pedal. Come over some time and ride both side by side and you will see. I live in San Francisco.
Why do you think my opti 850r is for sale after just 2 weeks of ownership???
And this isnt my first rodeo and i know all about the etech. In fact i broke several 48 volt nedra records at dragstrip in woodburn on etech powered machines...etech is nothing special...just heavy and old school compared to new technology. My record? 57mph on a 48 volts..with pedals.
I ended up getting injured on that etech...it was heavy and fast so i got rid of it. I hate over weight overpowered machines. I hate machines that if you give them too much throttle you get dumped off the back...but those are not the type of machines that endless sphere guys are developing no matter what people think here.
Etechs suck and are old technology.
The motor in the video puts out etech power and is brushless 95 percent efficient and only weighs 3 lbs...now that is a motor :)
Now do you reallly want me to post pics and stats on my machines?
chessmonster
Apr 20, 2011, 2:36:25 PM4/20/11
to lowco2, Optibike Owners Group
By the way i should mention...that super trike in the video....
At 9k, compared to a stealth bomber, if you knew what went into that trike component and labor wise...that trike is a bargain. Of course the trike is kind of a different animal altogheter...not so good for offroad...but on the road the thing is like riding on super fast rc car...its a real hoot to ride.
The one that goes 45mph...and has 20ah 48 volt of lipo battery.
Its actually for sale...i know because i nearly bought it...i might still buy it.
Anyway it is 9k since people on this group seem to have a lot of dispensable income you guys should consider it.
At 9k, compared to a stealth bomber, if you knew what went into that trike component and labor wise...that trike is a bargain. Of course the trike is kind of a different animal altogheter...not so good for offroad...but on the road the thing is like riding on super fast rc car...its a real hoot to ride.
TO you electric vehicle buffs which wallets full of cash...i would snap that trike up in 2 minutes...it is a one of a kind monster.
ElectricDirt
Apr 20, 2011, 11:46:07 PM4/20/11
to Optibike Owners Group
I want to see any home built e bike make 40+ sub 90min runs down the
Downiville downhill. Even my videos remove the brutality of the run.
Takes 99% of riders 3-4 hrs to complete. Of course I am very biased
and stick to my idea. If you can't rip offroad and regularly then what
is the point. Opti fanatic.
On Apr 20, 11:36 am, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way i should mention...that super trike in the video....
>
> The one that goes 45mph...and has 20ah 48 volt of lipo battery.
>
> Its actually for sale...i know because i nearly bought it...i might still
> buy it.
>
> Anyway it is 9k since people on this group seem to have a lot
> of dispensable income you guys should consider it.
>
> At 9k, compared to a stealth bomber, if you knew what went into that trike
> component and labor wise...that trike is a bargain. Of course the trike is
> kind of a different animal altogheter...not so good for offroad...but on the
> road the thing is like riding on super fast rc car...its a real hoot to
> ride.
>
> TO you electric vehicle buffs which wallets full of cash...i would snap that
> trike up in 2 minutes...it is a one of a kind monster.
>
Downiville downhill. Even my videos remove the brutality of the run.
Takes 99% of riders 3-4 hrs to complete. Of course I am very biased
and stick to my idea. If you can't rip offroad and regularly then what
is the point. Opti fanatic.
On Apr 20, 11:36 am, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way i should mention...that super trike in the video....
>
> The one that goes 45mph...and has 20ah 48 volt of lipo battery.
>
> Its actually for sale...i know because i nearly bought it...i might still
> buy it.
>
> Anyway it is 9k since people on this group seem to have a lot
> of dispensable income you guys should consider it.
>
> At 9k, compared to a stealth bomber, if you knew what went into that trike
> component and labor wise...that trike is a bargain. Of course the trike is
> kind of a different animal altogheter...not so good for offroad...but on the
> road the thing is like riding on super fast rc car...its a real hoot to
> ride.
>
> TO you electric vehicle buffs which wallets full of cash...i would snap that
> trike up in 2 minutes...it is a one of a kind monster.
>
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:02 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> Let me give you another example of a "sphere build" that is quicker to
> >> watch (you dont have to read) and you will get the idea.
>
> >> This is a 6k build and uses a state of the are RC motor that is 95 percent
> >> efficient...in the video you will see this thing looks like a hell of a lot
> >> of fun.
>
> >> Of course this machine is not marketable...it is prob way too
> >> dangerous...please watch long enough to see high speed passes:
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQV0UzV5qTM&feature=player_embedded
>
> >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQV0UzV5qTM&feature=player_embedded>Anyway
> >> to the average joe on the street...they would be wowed by that machine...i
> >> think optibike should release one of these in 2012.
>
>
> >> Let me give you another example of a "sphere build" that is quicker to
> >> watch (you dont have to read) and you will get the idea.
>
> >> This is a 6k build and uses a state of the are RC motor that is 95 percent
> >> efficient...in the video you will see this thing looks like a hell of a lot
> >> of fun.
>
> >> Of course this machine is not marketable...it is prob way too
> >> dangerous...please watch long enough to see high speed passes:
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQV0UzV5qTM&feature=player_embedded
>
> >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQV0UzV5qTM&feature=player_embedded>Anyway
> >> to the average joe on the street...they would be wowed by that machine...i
> >> think optibike should release one of these in 2012.
>
Covertrider10
Apr 21, 2011, 3:11:17 AM4/21/11
to ElectricDirt, Optibike Owners Group
I'm with you electricdirt.
Most of the crappy looking machines on ES would fall apart on the first jump. Also I don't want to spend my time tinkering with my frankenbike like the ES nuts. I'd rather ride on a bike that still actually looks and rides like one.
Chess: your interventions are becoming a bore
chessmonster
Apr 22, 2011, 3:55:42 AM4/22/11
to Covertrider10, ElectricDirt, Optibike Owners Group
I totally agree with electrcodirt as well....
For using the opti like an electric chairlift and climbing up a dirt trail up a mountain and then bombing down...i have never ridden or heard of a better bike than the optibike.
If you live near that kind of riding by far the optibike is the best solution.
No argument from me there.
chessmonster
Apr 22, 2011, 5:28:50 PM4/22/11
to Covertrider10, ElectricDirt, Optibike Owners Group
By the way...
I am sure you guys already seen this video...but this show the opti completely in its element:
I am sure you guys already seen this video...but this show the opti completely in its element:
Your right...i only know a few homebuilds that would put up with this kind of riding....and the opti would win the contest esp jumping. I have a word for it..95 percent of homebuilds are "jankey"...they rattle fall apart etc...esp in serous off trail riding. There are a few exceptions and i own a few of them...but they cost me some bank. Quality costs.
I just wish i had more brutal single track by my house like that to really use the opti to its fullest. I did one day ride a single track trail called china camp and it was a blast.
The reality is most of the endless sphere bikes are built on a budget and built for commuting...or joy riding on the street
Nimbuzz
Apr 22, 2011, 7:25:05 PM4/22/11
to Optibike Owners Group
It's all good!! I agree that there is a lot of very good R & D going
on on Endless Sphere. They're developing some pertinent technology
that is fun and practical--It will help the world. On the other hand
the Opti is a fantastic top quality turnkey that has proven reliable,
water proof, extremely well balanced for on-road and pounding hard off-
road. It may prove itself again at Pikes Peak this year--when the
green flag drops the BS stops. Come one, come all--let's have a race
and respect the strong points of all the racers!
As Craig says "we're all on the same ebike team!"
On Apr 22, 2:28 pm, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way...
>
> I am sure you guys already seen this video...but this show the
> opti completely in its element:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRhx2WRq2w&feature=player_embedded
>
> Your right...i only know a few homebuilds that would put up with this kind
> of riding....and the opti would win the contest esp jumping. I have a word
> for it..95 percent of homebuilds are "jankey"...they rattle fall apart
> etc...esp in serous off trail riding. There are a few exceptions and i own a
> few of them...but they cost me some bank. Quality costs.
>
> I just wish i had more brutal single track by my house like that to really
> use the opti to its fullest. I did one day ride a single track trail called
> china camp and it was a blast.
>
> The reality is most of the endless sphere bikes are built on a budget and
> built for commuting...or joy riding on the street
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRhx2WRq2w&feature=player_embedded>
> ...
>
> read more »
on on Endless Sphere. They're developing some pertinent technology
that is fun and practical--It will help the world. On the other hand
the Opti is a fantastic top quality turnkey that has proven reliable,
water proof, extremely well balanced for on-road and pounding hard off-
road. It may prove itself again at Pikes Peak this year--when the
green flag drops the BS stops. Come one, come all--let's have a race
and respect the strong points of all the racers!
As Craig says "we're all on the same ebike team!"
On Apr 22, 2:28 pm, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way...
>
> I am sure you guys already seen this video...but this show the
> opti completely in its element:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRhx2WRq2w&feature=player_embedded
>
> Your right...i only know a few homebuilds that would put up with this kind
> of riding....and the opti would win the contest esp jumping. I have a word
> for it..95 percent of homebuilds are "jankey"...they rattle fall apart
> etc...esp in serous off trail riding. There are a few exceptions and i own a
> few of them...but they cost me some bank. Quality costs.
>
> I just wish i had more brutal single track by my house like that to really
> use the opti to its fullest. I did one day ride a single track trail called
> china camp and it was a blast.
>
> The reality is most of the endless sphere bikes are built on a budget and
> built for commuting...or joy riding on the street
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:55 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > I totally agree with electrcodirt as well....
>
> > For using the opti like an electric chairlift and climbing up a dirt trail
> > up a mountain and then bombing down...i have never ridden or heard of a
> > better bike than the optibike.
>
> > If you live near that kind of riding by far the optibike is the best
> > solution.
>
> > No argument from me there.
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:55 AM, chessmonster <chessmons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > I totally agree with electrcodirt as well....
>
> > For using the opti like an electric chairlift and climbing up a dirt trail
> > up a mountain and then bombing down...i have never ridden or heard of a
> > better bike than the optibike.
>
> > If you live near that kind of riding by far the optibike is the best
> > solution.
>
> > No argument from me there.
>
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Covertrider10 <covertride...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> I'm with you electricdirt.
>
> >> Most of the crappy looking machines on ES would fall apart on the first
> >> jump. Also I don't want to spend my time tinkering with my frankenbike like
> >> the ES nuts. I'd rather ride on a bike that still actually looks and rides
> >> like one.
>
> >> Chess: your interventions are becoming a bore
>
> >> On 21/04/2011, at 4:46 AM, ElectricDirt <liveitproduct...@comcast.net>
>
> >> I'm with you electricdirt.
>
> >> Most of the crappy looking machines on ES would fall apart on the first
> >> jump. Also I don't want to spend my time tinkering with my frankenbike like
> >> the ES nuts. I'd rather ride on a bike that still actually looks and rides
> >> like one.
>
> >> Chess: your interventions are becoming a bore
>
>
> read more »
stevebills
Apr 22, 2011, 11:28:21 PM4/22/11
to Optibike Owners Group
Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even
censorship,
censorship,
remf
Apr 22, 2011, 11:34:50 PM4/22/11
to Optibike Owners Group
The 2 last posts are amongst the best, most interesting I have read in this forum for a long time, brief but to the point :)
deerfencer
Apr 23, 2011, 1:22:11 PM4/23/11
to Optibike Owners Group
> As Craig says "we're all on the same ebike team!"<
machines that gets us occasionally warring, but in the end it's
helpful to remember that it's all about fresh air and fun.
LH
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