Opera 7.50 Preview 3 for Mac available
Tim Altman
the 7.x codebase. After over a year of hard work, including a nearly
complete code rewrite, we're finally ready to unleash Opera 7 for Mac
users. Enjoy!
Opera 7.50 Preview 3 for Mac is available for download. Please discuss
the new version in opera.mac and in the my.opera.com Opera for Mac
forum. *Please do not distribute the download link directly*, but link
to the post in opera.mac or in the my.opera.com Opera for Mac forum.
Download Preview 3:
http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/o750p3_1701.tar.gz (build 1701)
=== Release notes ===
This release is unfinished and unsupported beta-quality software. It
cannot be registered, but will not expire. This release requires Mac
OS X 10.1 or later. We recommend always using the latest operating
system updates. Please use the latest release of Macromedia Flash.
=== Planned Enhancements for 7.50 Final ===
* Support for Unicode keyboard layouts
* Synchronization with Address book
* Support for Liveconnect
=== Major New Features ===
* Presto! *
This release sports Opera 7's Presto rendering engine. The rendering
engine was rebuilt from scratch for blazing fast speed, improved
standards support, and bidirectional text display. Check out our
documentation for an overview of our standards support
(http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/).
* Opera Mail *
Also in this release is Opera Mail (the e-mail client formerly known
as M2 (http://www.opera.com/products/user/m2/)), Opera's revolutionary
e-mail, news, and newsfeed client. This is the first time Opera for
Mac includes the ability to manage your personal messages. With Opera
Mail, Opera takes the work out of organizing your messages, making it
easier to find and deal with the messages that matter to you most.
* Opera Chat *
Opera now has experimental support for IRC, our first protocol
back-end for Chat. You can easily setup a chat account Chat menu by
selecting "New account". Chat channel and server information is shown
in the Chat panel. Additionally, you can use Chat > List rooms
(Cmd+Alt+J) to list available channels once you've connected to a
server. To aid in testing and to give Opera enthusiasts a place to
hang out, we have setup our own IRC network: OperaNet. There are
currently two servers: irc.opera.com and irc.se.opera.com.
* Mac OS X Integration *
In addition to our integration with Keychain, information is imported
from Address book to contacts for use with Opera Mail. Your Safari
bookmarks will automatically be imported, too. With the Mac Native
skin, Opera follows the look of your operating system. Opera 7 will
tell you if you have a stored password for the current site by
highlighting the username/password fields. Login information can then
be retrieved by clicking the Wand icon or by using the keyboard
shortcut Cmd+Enter.
A detailed list of changes is available at
http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/m750p3.html#detail.
--
Tim Altman
Customer Service
Opera Software
roy...@myrealSP-AMbox.com
No SP-AM is good spam.
Nicholas Riley
> It is my pleasure to bring you the first Opera for Mac release using
> the 7.x codebase. After over a year of hard work, including a nearly
> complete code rewrite, we're finally ready to unleash Opera 7 for Mac
> users. Enjoy!
First of all, congratulations! For, essentially, a first release, Opera
7.50 preview 3 is amazingly stable and fast. The UI speed puts Cocoa
browsers to shame. You might want to mention to Apple that it's possible
to bring up a simple dialog box on an 800 MHz machine in less than a
second of disk churning :-)
There are lots of UI problems, of course; just those I experienced while
trying to compose this message were:
- you can't double-click and drag in a news post to select by word,
because the contextual menu pops up instead. (This does work in the
composition window).
- triple-clicking in this reply does not select a paragraph as expected,
but the entire message
- the insertion point is visible as you select text; Macs don't do that
> This release is unfinished and unsupported beta-quality software. It
> cannot be registered, but will not expire
Do you mean that it is not possible to get rid of the ads? We have a site
license of Opera at my school and I tried Opera 7.23 Windows and Opera 6.0
Mac serial numbers but neither worked.
It is wonderful to have another viable browser on OS X, thanks again.
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
If you don't want to call it M2 any more, then you might want to change
the default signature :)
Ralf Demuth
03:41:33 +0100:
> In article <htne505j6255a2c20...@4ax.com>,
> Tim Altman <add...@in.sig> wrote:
>
>> * Opera Mail *
>> Also in this release is Opera Mail (the e-mail client formerly known
>> as M2 (http://www.opera.com/products/user/m2/)), Opera's revolutionary
>> e-mail, news, and newsfeed client. This is the first time Opera for
>> Mac includes the ability to manage your personal messages. With Opera
>> Mail, Opera takes the work out of organizing your messages, making it
>> easier to find and deal with the messages that matter to you most.
>>
>> * Opera Chat *
>> Opera now has experimental support for IRC, our first protocol
>> back-end for Chat. You can easily setup a chat account Chat menu by
>> selecting "New account". Chat channel and server information is shown
>> in the Chat panel. Additionally, you can use Chat > List rooms
>> (Cmd+Alt+J) to list available channels once you've connected to a
>> server. To aid in testing and to give Opera enthusiasts a place to
>> hang out, we have setup our own IRC network: OperaNet. There are
>> currently two servers: irc.opera.com and irc.se.opera.com.
>
> can i remove them if i don't want them ?
>
>
> i can remove email and other things on Mozilla
Adding the following
[User Prefs]
Show E-mail Client=0
To the User Prefs section of your "Opera 7 Preferences" file could do the
trick. I have this from the win changelog for 7.50 P2
(http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/w750p2.html). Could you please post if
this works on the mac, too? You should find the path to your personal
"Opera 7 Preferences" file on the page that opens when you use menu Opera
> About Opera (or opera:about in the address field).
--
Regards
Ralf Demuth (lachralle)
An Opera a day keeps the explorer away.
OmegaJunior
> It is my pleasure to bring you the first Opera for Mac release using
> the 7.x codebase. After over a year of hard work, including a nearly
> complete code rewrite, we're finally ready to unleash Opera 7 for Mac
> users. Enjoy!
>
> Opera 7.50 Preview 3 for Mac is available for download. Please discuss
> the new version in opera.mac and in the my.opera.com Opera for Mac
> forum. *Please do not distribute the download link directly*, but link
> to the post in opera.mac or in the my.opera.com Opera for Mac forum.
>
> Download Preview 3:
>
> http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/o750p3_1701.tar.gz (build 1701)
>
Yes!
Thank you so much!
--
Opera 7.50.3658 - tp3 / Win2KPro / Java 1.4
Viktor Zacek
> > This release is unfinished and unsupported beta-quality software. It
> > cannot be registered, but will not expire
>
> Do you mean that it is not possible to get rid of the ads? We have a site
> license of Opera at my school and I tried Opera 7.23 Windows and Opera 6.0
> Mac serial numbers but neither worked.
I have a Opera 6.03 (single-user licence) installed. When executing
Opera 7.5 pre3 no ad is displayed.
> It is wonderful to have another viable browser on OS X, thanks again.
Absolutely... Opera 6.03 is better then others, but annoying.
Regards,
Viktor
--
Mails bitte mit [news] im Betreff einleiten.
ICQ / MSN available
Rijk van Geijtenbeek
> Harri Mellin <atz02-...@netscape.net> schrieb am Wed, 17 Mar 2004
> 03:41:33 +0100:
[about non-browser components]
>> can i remove them if i don't want them ?
> Adding the following
>
> [User Prefs]
> Show E-mail Client=0
>
> To the User Prefs section of your "Opera 7 Preferences" file could do
> the trick.
Alternatively, anyone can strip functionality from the user interface by
editing the menu setup file.
* Go to the preferences, "Toolbars and menus"
* Create a copy of the "Opera Standard" menu
* Find the file and change, remove or reorder items at will
* Unchanged sections can be removed from the custom file, they will then
be taken from the default
* Select the custom menu setup in Preferences
This is of course a lot of work for simply removing a few things, but you
can create completely different menus this way.
I *think* the setup "Munin" I made (browser only, mimics Firefox) should
work on Mac as well:
http://my.opera.com/Rijk/setups/menus
--
The Web is a procrastination apparatus: | Rijk van Geijtenbeek
It can absorb as much time as | Documentation & QA
is required to ensure that you | Opera Software ASA
won't get any real work done. - J.Nielsen | mailto:ri...@opera.com N
Tim Altman
Just tried this out. The Munin toolbar setup works fine. The
menu setup requires a restart. I also tried the Singleline setup, but
it said it was an incompatible skin version. That seems to be a
server configuration problem, though.
Rachid Finge
> * Opera Mail *
> Also in this release is Opera Mail (the e-mail client formerly known
> as M2 (http://www.opera.com/products/user/m2/)), Opera's revolutionary
> e-mail, news, and newsfeed client. This is the first time Opera for
> Mac includes the ability to manage your personal messages. With Opera
> Mail, Opera takes the work out of organizing your messages, making it
> easier to find and deal with the messages that matter to you most.
M2 will be renamed to Opera Mail? :S
Rachid
Sylvain Perchaud
> It is my pleasure to bring you the first Opera for Mac release using
> the 7.x codebase. After over a year of hard work, including a nearly
> complete code rewrite, we're finally ready to unleash Opera 7 for Mac
> users. Enjoy!
I can't Drag&Drop any more an URL from Opera's URL bar to another app.
Drag&Drop is necessary for me.
Ralf Demuth
+0100:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:35:37 +0100, Tim Altman <add...@in.sig> wrote:
>
>> * Opera Mail *
>> Also in this release is Opera Mail (the e-mail client formerly known
>> as M2 (http://www.opera.com/products/user/m2/)), Opera's revolutionary
>> e-mail, news, and newsfeed client. This is the first time Opera for
>> Mac includes the ability to manage your personal messages. With Opera
>> Mail, Opera takes the work out of organizing your messages, making it
>> easier to find and deal with the messages that matter to you most.
>
> M2 will be renamed to Opera Mail? :S
>
Sniplet from Haavard in
http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47996
"M2 is still a codename (in 7.50 it is sometimes referred to as m2.5), but
when referring to mail in Opera in oublic we just say (or are supposed to)
"to import mail into Opera..." instead of "to import mail into M2...", for
example. So M2 is just Opera, or the e-mail client in Opera. Or Opera
Mail, which is the more official name now."
Tim Altman
<syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:35:37 +0100, Tim Altman <add...@in.sig> wrote:
>
>> It is my pleasure to bring you the first Opera for Mac release using
>> the 7.x codebase. After over a year of hard work, including a nearly
>> complete code rewrite, we're finally ready to unleash Opera 7 for Mac
>> users. Enjoy!
>
>I can't Drag&Drop any more an URL from Opera's URL bar to another app.
>Drag&Drop is necessary for me.
You should be able to drag using the icon next to the address.
Guanyao Cheng
support the option for smooth scrolling in Panther? I'd also like the
scroll wheel scrolling to be smoother like in Safari and the new OmniWeb
beta.
Ralf Demuth
Have you activated Preferences > Windows > Smooth Scrolling?
--
Grüße / Regards
Tiago Silva
Where do we submit bugs?
I'll start: dialog boxes created by javascript fail to open and lock the
webpage, and the "block unwanted popups" option can't distinguish between
wanted javascript popups and unwanted ones (and for security, blocks them
all).
And the default font in the text boxes is too small for OSX - since it's
anti-aliased, it's almost invisible... The min font size preference seems
to do nothing.
But thankyou thankyou thankyou for bringing my favorite browser to
Macintosh: now MacHeads are going to know what a good browser is!
Tiago Silva
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
"An Opera a day keeps the Explorer away"
Guanyao Cheng
"Ralf Demuth" <ra...@demuths.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:14:04 -0500, Guanyao Cheng <che...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > The preview is great so far, fast and stable. I wonder if Opera will
> > support the option for smooth scrolling in Panther? I'd also like the
> > scroll wheel scrolling to be smoother like in Safari and the new OmniWeb
> > beta.
>
> Have you activated Preferences > Windows > Smooth Scrolling?
Yes. It doesn't seem to make a difference. Perhaps they just haven't
implemented it yet?
Miro Jurisic
Harri Mellin <atz02-...@netscape.net> wrote:
> many call it ugly and that it's a port from the windows xp version so they
> don't want to use it
It is ugly. It has "not designed with the Mac user in mind" written all over it:
- "Go to Web Address", "Search the Internet", "Search eBay" and "Search Amazon"
buttons are ugly and do not follow the Apple HIG for control spacing and text
layout
- the mouseover highlighting uses some washed out appearance that is not
present in any other Mac app
- "Print Preview"? Why does Opera need it own very special print preview
instead of using the OS preint preview?
- command-option-h for History? The guidelines for command-h and
command-option-h being hide and hide others have existed for years.
- Minimize all == command-shift-f4? What happened to command-option-m?
- The fake close box in the start panel is on the right. Sorry, but that's the
wring side.
- What's with the gratuitous overuse of function keys in keynoard shortcuts?
- The icons are ugly. Hire a graphic designer who knows how to design Aqua
icons.
- There must be at least five menu items that bring up some sort of
preferences, but not all of them are actually accessible from the Preferences
menu item (as far as I can tell) -- Chat "Manage Accounts", for example (not to
mention that the "manage accounts" window uses the floating window appearance,
but doesn't float over modal dialogs).
The Opera team may be very good at many things, but creating a good Mac app is,
sadly, still not one of them.
meeroh
--
If this message helped you, consider buying an item
from my wish list: <http://web.meeroh.org/wishlist>
Ralf Demuth
> Where do we submit bugs?
http://www.opera.com/support/bugs/ gives some information on what to file
as a bug report and how and leads to the wizard if there is something to
report.
> I'll start: dialog boxes created by javascript fail to open and lock the
> webpage, and the "block unwanted popups" option can't distinguish
> between wanted javascript popups and unwanted ones (and for security,
> blocks them all).
Do you have an example URL for the blocking of a web page?
> And the default font in the text boxes is too small for OSX - since it's
> anti-aliased, it's almost invisible... The min font size preference
> seems to do nothing.
You can change the default fonts for text boxes in Preferences > Fonts >
"Form text field single-line" and "Form text fields multi-line". There
have been discussions if these couldn't be changed to other and bigger
fonts by default and I would like to see some changes, too. But I don't
think this is a real bug, more like a wish for the next previews/final.
Can't confirm that the min font size does not work. On www.opera.com
everything gets real big if I set it to 20 pt.
> But thankyou thankyou thankyou for bringing my favorite browser to
> Macintosh: now MacHeads are going to know what a good browser is!
Seconded :)
--
Grüße / Regards
Ralf Demuth (lachralle)
An Opera a day keeps the explorer away.
Ralf Demuth
> In article <atz02-NoSpAm--6D7...@news.opera.com>,
> Harri Mellin <atz02-...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> many call it ugly and that it's a port from the windows xp version so
>> they
>> don't want to use it
>
> It is ugly. It has "not designed with the Mac user in mind" written all
> over it:
It has "Preview version" written all over it and to me it is a *very* nice
program. The actual version is designed to deliver an actual Opera
experience on the mac -- something many users like me have asked for. It
shows Operas support fot the mac and is working fast and stable.
All these are wishes for the further development of Operas mac port and as
this forums thread
http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48184 shows Opera
appreciates to hear comments like this in order to set priorities for the
future processing of MacOpera.
> The Opera team may be very good at many things, but creating a good Mac
> app is,
> sadly, still not one of them.
So let's help them to develop what we want :)
--
Grüße / Regards
Ralf Demuth (lachralle)
An Opera a day keeps the explorer away.
Ralf Demuth
02:48:59 +0100:
> In article <opr47rqq...@ralfsibook.local>,
> "Ralf Demuth" <ra...@demuths.de> wrote:
>
>> An Opera a day keeps the explorer away.
>
> time to change that MSIE is Dead
When it comes to MS you just never know ...
--
Håvard Kvam Moen
wrote:
...
> - What's with the gratuitous overuse of function keys in keynoard shortcuts?
Keyboard accessibility.
> - The icons are ugly. Hire a graphic designer who knows how to design Aqua
> icons.
The icons are placeholders. A new standard skin is on the way.
> - There must be at least five menu items that bring up some sort of
> preferences, but not all of them are actually accessible from the Preferences
> menu item (as far as I can tell) -- Chat "Manage Accounts", for example
"Manage accounts" is actually available from the preferences dialog.
Miro Jurisic
H?vard Kvam Moen <haa...@opera-dot-com.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:41:28 -0500, Miro Jurisic <mac...@meeroh.org>
> wrote:
>
> ...
> > - What's with the gratuitous overuse of function keys in keynoard
> > shortcuts?
>
> Keyboard accessibility.
Mac OS X gives me the ability to navigate the menus using my keyboard and to
assign arbitrary keyboard shortcuts to arbitrary menu items in any application.
There is really no need for you to make completely misguided guesses about what
keyboard shortcuts I might want to use. In particular, using function keys
requires me to use one more modifier key on my PowerBook, and is therefore just
about the last thing I would use for a menu shortcut.
> > - There must be at least five menu items that bring up some sort of
> > preferences, but not all of them are actually accessible from the
> > Preferences
> > menu item (as far as I can tell) -- Chat "Manage Accounts", for example
>
> "Manage accounts" is actually available from the preferences dialog.
It only seems to work for email accounts, I don't see any Chat preferences in
the Preferences Dialog.
Speaking about that, the Preferences should be in a modeless window in a Mac app.
Miro Jurisic
wrote:
> > The Opera team may be very good at many things, but creating a good Mac
> > app is, sadly, still not one of them.
>
> So let's help them to develop what we want :)
What I want is a browser in which usability is not a second priority behind
technological superiority. Opera 5, 6, and 7b3 failed me in that regard, Safari
and OmniWeb didn't.
Sylvain Perchaud
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:16:34 +0100, "Sylvain Perchaud"
> <syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
>> I can't Drag&Drop any more an URL from Opera's URL bar to another app.
>> Drag&Drop is necessary for me.
>
> You should be able to drag using the icon next to the address.
Thank you for the hint. I'm so accustomed to [double-click on the URL]
+ [Drag]that I didn't tried that.
Tim Altman
<syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:16:43 +0100, Tim Altman <add...@in.sig> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:16:34 +0100, "Sylvain Perchaud"
>> <syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
>>> I can't Drag&Drop any more an URL from Opera's URL bar to another app.
>>> Drag&Drop is necessary for me.
>>
>> You should be able to drag using the icon next to the address.
>
>Thank you for the hint. I'm so accustomed to [double-click on the URL]
>+ [Drag]that I didn't tried that.
OK. Glad you got it working. :)
OmegaJunior
<syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:16:43 +0100, Tim Altman <add...@in.sig> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:16:34 +0100, "Sylvain Perchaud"
>> <syl...@europe-shareware.org> wrote:
>>> I can't Drag&Drop any more an URL from Opera's URL bar to another app.
>>> Drag&Drop is necessary for me.
>>
>> You should be able to drag using the icon next to the address.
>
> Thank you for the hint. I'm so accustomed to [double-click on the URL]
> + [Drag]that I didn't tried that.
>
>
>
That is the normal way to do drag-drop of selected text on Macs. I think
Opera should find a way of implementing it.
Håvard Kvam Moen
wrote:
> What I want is a browser in which usability is not a second priority behind
> technological superiority. Opera 5, 6, and 7b3 failed me in that regard, Safari
> and OmniWeb didn't.
In that case, usability differs from person to person. It depends on
your needs. Opera offers other usability enhancements that other
browsers do not have. Usability is definitely a priority, and
technological advancements and usability definitely go hand in hand.
Håvard Kvam Moen
wrote:
> Mac OS X gives me the ability to navigate the menus using my keyboard and to
> assign arbitrary keyboard shortcuts to arbitrary menu items in any application.
> There is really no need for you to make completely misguided guesses about what
> keyboard shortcuts I might want to use. In particular, using function keys
> requires me to use one more modifier key on my PowerBook, and is therefore just
> about the last thing I would use for a menu shortcut.
You can edit keyboard shortcuts in Opera to suit your own needs.
Miro Jurisic
H?vard Kvam Moen <haa...@opera-dot-com.invalid> wrote:
That's not the point. The fact that I can customize Opera is not an excuse for
the default configuration being at odds with the expectations of pretty much
every Mac user, such as Command-Option-H not being "hide others". The default
configuration should be designed to make new users' lives easier, which means
that it should integrate well with the rest of the OS and other apps the user
has, rather than interoperating well with Opera for Windows.
Miro Jurisic
H?vard Kvam Moen <haa...@opera-dot-com.invalid> wrote:
You are confusing usability for advanced users with usability in general.
Opera's UI design makes it hard and confusing to do simple things, which
generally means that for new users it will fail the principle of least surprise,
and turn them off.
That's, of course, fine if you are targeting the market of existing Opera users
coming from other platforms and people who are willing to deal with the learning
curve and the poor interaction with the rest of the OS in order to gain the
advanced features of Opera. Just don't be surprised when you discover that
people are not switching to Opera because they find Opera hard to use coming
from a browser that does not go against users' expectations regarding the way a
Mac app behaves.
Opera/Mac is quite obviously a port from another platform, or no platform at all
-- it's possible that Opera is as poorly integrated on all OSes -- and I expect
that you will find few Mac users like such ports.
As far as I can tell you are raising your own adoption barrier by making the app
seem unfriendly and unfamiliar to Mac users. Why you would think this is a good
idea given that you are competing in a market in which you have infinitesimal
presence and strong free competition is beyond me.
Johan H. Borg
> As far as I can tell you are raising your own adoption barrier by making
> the app
> seem unfriendly and unfamiliar to Mac users. Why you would think this is
> a good
> idea given that you are competing in a market in which you have
> infinitesimal
> presence and strong free competition is beyond me.
It's not a goal to make Opera unfriendly or unfamiliar to Mac users.
However, it's not a goal to mimic Safari as far as possible either, since
the only reason to install another browser on your system would be because
you want more functionality or a different experience.
Opera 5 and 6 had user interfaces made specifically for Mac OS. That
didn't stop the purists from screaming "Bad Windows port", while everone
else complained about missing features from Win/Lin.
We need *to-the-point* feedback from you guys in order to make Opera
friendly enough on the Mac platform without losing it's uniquenes or
efficiency (which happens to be the most important usability parameter for
a product you use several hours per day).
Johan.
Miro Jurisic
"Johan H. Borg" <jo...@opera.com> wrote:
> We need *to-the-point* feedback from you guys in order to make Opera
> friendly enough on the Mac platform without losing it's uniquenes or
> efficiency (which happens to be the most important usability parameter for a
> product you use several hours per day).
I made several remarks in this thread already. There's a start. Frankly, I don't
have the time to spend on doing something that you should have done a long time
before releasing the first public beta (namely, usability testing and UI
design).
You can't design Opera for efficiency without considering how it fits with the
rest of the operating system. Using Command-H may very well be efficient in an
abstract universe in which nobody has muscle memory that maps Command-H to "hide
app", but we are not in that universe. Efficiency cannot be designed into a
product without considering users' established habits.
Opera 5 and 6 may have had UIs designed for Mac OS, but they were poorly
designed.
I am not saying that you should mimic Safari as much as possible, but I am
saying that you should tell your UI engineers to sit down in front of Safari and
use it until they understand why it works the way it does, because the things
that Safari does, it does well.
Consider the simple example of the find widget in the toolbar. In Safari, there
is an icon on the left, and when I click that icon I get a list of recent
searches. In Opera there is an icon that does nothing at all, and on the right
there is another icon that does something. Why is the only icon that does
something useful as far away from the text of the search box as possible? If I
am looking at the search field that says "Google Search", which icon do you
think I will click if I want to see what my other options are -- the one that's
right next to "Google Search" or the one that's farther away? Same goes for the
zoom widget.
Why is there a Start widget that pops up a menu whose item contains a "Start"
item after 10 other things? What does that even mean?
Why doesn't the up key move the insertion point to the beginning of a text field
(for example, in a form field on a web page)?
Why is the keyboard focus a Mac OS theme ring around a text field, a solid
rectangular outline around an image, and a dotted rectangle inside a popup menu?
Why does find search only in one frame? That is never what I want. I want to
search the page that I see in front of me. (Safari does this right.) Even if you
really want to search one frame, why is there no feedback which frame you will
search? Why is it that when I click in one frame and search for "X" you select
it, but then when I click in another and search for "Y" you leave X in the first
frame selected? Which of the two apparent selections would be copied to the
clipboard?
Why doesn't dragging the separator between history and the page content provide
any feedback whatsoever?
I realize that the answer to all of these questions is "because it's a beta",
but IMNSHO, you should have done your homework regarding UI way earlier than
this. At this point it comes across as "we have a product, now let's think about
the user interface", and I see only two things that can come out of that: either
you will honesty fix the UI problems and your schedule will slip (there are UI
problems everywhere I look in the app), or you will decide that it's OK to ship
a product before you work out the UI problems, in which case you will ship a
shoddy product (again).
Or perhaps you really did no usability design and testing of your Mac OS
product, and you are hoping that your beta testers will pick up the slack -- in
that case you'll probably get what you paid for.
Ken Knox
> In article <opr5zbnj...@capitole.oslo.opera.com>,
> "Johan H. Borg" <jo...@opera.com> wrote:
>
>> We need *to-the-point* feedback from you guys in order to make Opera
>> friendly enough on the Mac platform without losing it's uniquenes or
>> efficiency (which happens to be the most important usability parameter
>> for a
>> product you use several hours per day).
>
> I made several remarks in this thread already. There's a start. Frankly,
> I don't
> have the time to spend on doing something that you should have done a
> long time
> before releasing the first public beta (namely, usability testing and UI
> design).
>
It isn't a beta...it's a pre-beta, known and advertised as a technical
preview. If you're not willing to provide useful feedback then you've
really no business 1) downloading and running the program, or 2)
complaining about it when it doesn't fulfill your needs.
[..]
--
Ken
Johan H. Borg
> In article <opr5zbnj...@capitole.oslo.opera.com>,
> "Johan H. Borg" <jo...@opera.com> wrote:
>
>> We need *to-the-point* feedback from you guys in order to make Opera
>> friendly enough on the Mac platform without losing it's uniquenes or
>> efficiency (which happens to be the most important usability parameter
>> for a
>> product you use several hours per day).
>
> I made several remarks in this thread already. There's a start. Frankly,
> I don't
> have the time to spend on doing something that you should have done a
> long time
> before releasing the first public beta (namely, usability testing and UI
> design).
With 7.5 we're basically putting 9 years of that work into the Mac version.
The remaining platform-dependent tuning will take place over time, since
we don't have unlimited resources to spend on the smallest desktop
platform.
Quick comments:
- Cmd+H should be mapped to Hide application (bug)
- The search field (first seen in Opera) has its dropdown on the right
side, for consistency with combo-boxes in about every OS on the planet,
including OS X/Cocoa
- The Start panel is experimental (we wanted external feedback in addition
to a usability study)
- Look and feel of focus selection clearly needs tuning
I'll make sure we stay focused on these issues.
Johan.
Tom Kjøde
I have one very specific comment to make. Double-clicks selects the
word under cursor, *including* the trailing "." - this is very
annoying! Please let double clicks select words without trailing
punctuation.
Oh, how easy it is to find things we want to become better. I find it
appropiate to also let you know that this preview has been running on
my powerbook since March 25th and been used intensively. It has not
crashed yet, and is still using a reasonable amount of memory. This
is already a major improvement in my browsing experience, thank you
very much!
That said, I agree with much of what Miro has put his finger at. It
is not an easy feat to deliver a cross-platform app with extensive
keyboard support and find a balance between the keyboard shortcuts
standard to each platform and those standard within the application.
But if Opera were to favor the application-specific keybindings, it
would become the favorite browser only for people who work on 3 or
more platforms and do mostly websurfing. I don't think this is a good
business case, so you'd better give people a good experience on each
of their home platforms in order not to marginalize your market.
After all, I don't spend much time on a mac before I need to learn the
mac shortcuts - because they are common to all the other
applications. And it becomes very annoying when e.g. InDesign doesn't
honor the apple-H shortcut to hide the application.
I guess the only place I have cross-platform consistent keyboard
shortcuts is in Emacs. But they can do it only by saying we don't
care shit about windows/linux/mac keyboard shortcuts. Essentially,
they say "we are our own OS" :) I do take delight in finding the
emacs c-a, c-e, c-k and c-y, to name a few shortcuts, also work in
other applications like Mail.app. For me it is sad that these have
disappeared from Opera (or maybe they were only in the linux version).
Probably, you don't rewrite everything but use stuff from the OS
you're running on? But if you did, the solution closest to satisfy
everybody would be something like a prioritized list of keyboard
setups the user could explicitly enable or disable. My personal list
would then look like this:
1 <enabled> Tom's shortcuts
2 <enabled> mac shortcuts
3 <enabled> emacs shortcuts
4 <disabled> X11 mouse cut and paste
5 <disabled> windows shortcuts
6 <disabled> unix shortcuts
on OS-X, while on windows it could look like this:
1 <enabled> Tom's shortcuts
2 <enabled> emacs shortcuts
3 <enabled> X11 mouse cut and paste
4 <enabled> windows shortcuts
5 <disabled> mac shortcuts
6 <disabled> unix shortcuts
In case of conflicting shortcuts, the higher priority wins. In this
way, if your fingers refuse to do anything but mac shortcuts, you can
force that bahavior on windows as well.
But defaults for a new user of Opera on OS-X should be something that
gives a Mac experience but fills in with compatibility:
1 <enabled> user shortcuts (empty)
2 <enabled> mac shortcuts
3 <enabled> windows shortcuts
4 <enabled> emacs shortcuts
5 <disabled> X11 mouse cut and paste
6 <disabled> unix shortcuts
Well, that's enough wishful thinking for today! Thanks again for all
the effort and for actually listening to your users.
Tom
PS: I'm writing this in gnus (emacs) and hitting M-q all the time to
wrap lines. Guess what happens when I go back to mac applications?
Why on earth did Apple bind Meta to the apple-key in X11...grrr
Rijk van Geijtenbeek
> "Johan H. Borg" <jo...@opera.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 03:52:25 -0400, Miro Jurisic <mac...@meeroh.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> We need *to-the-point* feedback from you guys in order to make Opera
>> friendly enough on the Mac platform without losing it's uniquenes or
>> efficiency (which happens to be the most important usability parameter
>> for a product you use several hours per day).
>
> I have one very specific comment to make. Double-clicks selects the
> word under cursor, *including* the trailing "." - this is very
> annoying! Please let double clicks select words without trailing
> punctuation.
But only for a double-click I assume - for a triple or quaddruple-click,
where Opera selects sentences and paragraphs, you most likely want the
punctuation.
> Oh, how easy it is to find things we want to become better. I find it
> appropiate to also let you know that this preview has been running on
> my powerbook since March 25th and been used intensively. It has not
> crashed yet, and is still using a reasonable amount of memory. This
> is already a major improvement in my browsing experience, thank you
> very much!
>
>
> That said, I agree with much of what Miro has put his finger at. It
> is not an easy feat to deliver a cross-platform app with extensive
> keyboard support and find a balance between the keyboard shortcuts
> standard to each platform and those standard within the application.
>
> But if Opera were to favor the application-specific keybindings, it
> would become the favorite browser only for people who work on 3 or
> more platforms and do mostly websurfing. I don't think this is a good
> business case, so you'd better give people a good experience on each
> of their home platforms in order not to marginalize your market.
>
> After all, I don't spend much time on a mac before I need to learn the
> mac shortcuts - because they are common to all the other
> applications. And it becomes very annoying when e.g. InDesign doesn't
> honor the apple-H shortcut to hide the application.
Maybe we should include both a default Macified shortcuts, and a more
cross-platform shortcuts file? We do ship a special Unix shortcuts file
for Linux and FreeBSD versions, but it is not the default for those
versions.
> I guess the only place I have cross-platform consistent keyboard
> shortcuts is in Emacs. But they can do it only by saying we don't
> care shit about windows/linux/mac keyboard shortcuts. Essentially,
> they say "we are our own OS" :) I do take delight in finding the
> emacs c-a, c-e, c-k and c-y, to name a few shortcuts, also work in
> other applications like Mail.app. For me it is sad that these have
> disappeared from Opera (or maybe they were only in the linux version).
I'm not familiar with those, but you can probably recreate them yourself.
--
The Web is a procrastination apparatus: | Rijk van Geijtenbeek
It can absorb as much time as | Documentation & QA
is required to ensure that you | Opera Software ASA
won't get any real work done. - J.Nielsen | mailto:ri...@opera.com N
Miro Jurisic
"Johan H. Borg" <jo...@opera.com> wrote:
> The remaining platform-dependent tuning will take place over time, since
> we don't have unlimited resources to spend on the smallest desktop
> platform.
And it shows.
> - The search field (first seen in Opera) has its dropdown on the right
> side, for consistency with combo-boxes in about every OS on the planet,
> including OS X/Cocoa
Then get rid of the useless icon on the left; however, you should not that every
single place where Apple uses an icon inside a text field, the icon is on the
left. Where the icon is on the right (combo boxes), the icon is visually
separate from the edit field, and there is no icon on the left.
Tom Kjøde
I will try it..
c-a is emacs notation for ctrl-a or ^a
c-a moves cursor to beginning of line
c-e moves cursor to end of line
c-k cuts text from cursor to end of line
c-y is paste
--
Tom
Erik Sandblom
> It is ugly. It has "not designed with the Mac user in mind" written all
> over it:
>
> - "Go to Web Address", "Search the Internet", "Search eBay" and "Search
> Amazon" buttons are ugly and do not follow the Apple HIG for control
> spacing and text layout
Looks exactly like Safari to me.
> - the mouseover highlighting uses some washed out appearance that is not
> present in any other Mac app
I like the more discrete colour.
> - "Print Preview"? Why does Opera need it own very special print preview
> instead of using the OS preint preview?
Because the OS print preview is slower than molasses in January. About the
same speed as Pluto on it's course around the sun (once per zillion years).
> - command-option-h for History? The guidelines for command-h and
> command-option-h being hide and hide others have existed for years.
I agree, should be changed.
> - Minimize all == command-shift-f4? What happened to command-option-m?
If that is a standard, I agree Opera should follow it.
> - The fake close box in the start panel is on the right. Sorry, but
> that's the wring side.
And it's ugly too.
> - What's with the gratuitous overuse of function keys in keynoard
> shortcuts?
I guess they haven't had time to make better ones yet.
> - The icons are ugly. Hire a graphic designer who knows how to design
> Aqua icons.
They aren't Aqua-like but I like them nevertheless.
> - There must be at least five menu items that bring up some sort of
> preferences, but not all of them are actually accessible from the
> Preferences menu item (as far as I can tell) -- Chat "Manage Accounts",
> for example (not to mention that the "manage accounts" window uses the
> floating window appearance, but doesn't float over modal dialogs).
I don't know exactly how such things should work, but you are probably
right.
> The Opera team may be very good at many things, but creating a good Mac
> app is, sadly, still not one of them.
Well it isn't finished yet...
Erik Sandblom
Erik Sandblom
> In article <anit505csvml1o6h8...@4ax.com>,
> H?vard Kvam Moen <haa...@opera-dot-com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:41:28 -0500, Miro Jurisic <mac...@meeroh.org>
>> wrote:
>> > - What's with the gratuitous overuse of function keys in keynoard
>> > shortcuts?
>>
>> Keyboard accessibility.
>
> Mac OS X gives me the ability to navigate the menus using my keyboard
> and to
> assign arbitrary keyboard shortcuts to arbitrary menu items in any
> application.
> There is really no need for you to make completely misguided guesses
> about what
> keyboard shortcuts I might want to use.
On the contrary, sensible defaults are extremely important. You shouldn't
have to make your own keyboard shortcuts. Everything should work out of
the box.
> In particular, using function keys
> requires me to use one more modifier key on my PowerBook, and is
> therefore just about the last thing I would use for a menu shortcut.
I expect some of the function key shortcuts will be replaced.
> the Preferences should be in a modeless window in a Mac app.
I absolutely agree.
Erik Sandblom
Miro Jurisic
"Erik Sandblom" <er...@operamail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:41:28 -0500, Miro Jurisic <mac...@meeroh.org> wrote:
>
> > It is ugly. It has "not designed with the Mac user in mind" written all
> > over it:
> >
> > - "Go to Web Address", "Search the Internet", "Search eBay" and "Search
> > Amazon" buttons are ugly and do not follow the Apple HIG for control
> > spacing and text layout
>
> Looks exactly like Safari to me.
You are not paying attention to details of the control layout. Please consult
<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelin
es/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000359/TPXREF18
6>
> > - the mouseover highlighting uses some washed out appearance that is not
> > present in any other Mac app
>
> I like the more discrete colour.
The question is not whether you like it. The point is that the mouseover
appearance looks a lot like disabled controls do on Mac OS X, and therefore it
looks like you disable a button when I mouse over it.
> > - "Print Preview"? Why does Opera need it own very special print preview
> > instead of using the OS preint preview?
>
>
> Because the OS print preview is slower than molasses in January. About the
> same speed as Pluto on it's course around the sun (once per zillion years).
I just tried using your print preview and I spent 10 seconds waiting for
something to happen, because I expected a new window to open (like it does in
every other app that I use Print Preview in). Only later did I realize Opera
puts the print preview in the same window. This is one of those things that
looks like a great idea in isolation, but it doesn't behave the way other apps
do, and so it's confusing and surprising to users.
I agree that your print preview is much faster, but I also noticed that Opera's
print preview has colors that are slightly different from what I get when I save
to PDF. Why is this? One of the main strengths of the OS-provided print preview
is that it uses exactly the same rendering path as printing does, thus
guaranteeing accuracy. Yours fails that test.
> > - Minimize all == command-shift-f4? What happened to command-option-m?
>
> If that is a standard, I agree Opera should follow it.
"If"? This is not something that should have ever made it out the door, because
it is clearly published
(<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuideli
nes/XHIGKeyboardShortcuts/chapter_20_section_1.html>) and widely known. Do your
developers read Apple documentation?
> > - The icons are ugly. Hire a graphic designer who knows how to design
> > Aqua icons.
>
> They aren't Aqua-like but I like them nevertheless.
The question is not whether you like them or not. The question is whether the
icons mesh well with the operating system an other apps, and the answer is that
they don't. We all know that Opera icons can be customized, but the defaults
should not stick out like a sore thumb.
> > - There must be at least five menu items that bring up some sort of
> > preferences, but not all of them are actually accessible from the
> > Preferences menu item (as far as I can tell) -- Chat "Manage Accounts",
> > for example (not to mention that the "manage accounts" window uses the
> > floating window appearance, but doesn't float over modal dialogs).
>
> I don't know exactly how such things should work, but you are probably
> right.
>
> > The Opera team may be very good at many things, but creating a good Mac
> > app is, sadly, still not one of them.
>
> Well it isn't finished yet...
Obviously, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the current state of
the app shows a gigantic gap between tech savvy and Mac savvy in your
organization. Your browser may be leaps and bounds beyond any other browser on
Earth, but as a Mac app it's awful. It is clear that your engineers and your
testers are not familiar with published guidelines for Mac applications, much
less with nuances of behavior that are just as important but not explicitly
codified.
What bugs me the most about this is that it's clear that you haven't done your
homework in this area. You are getting educated about the issues by your
beta-testers, and that is bothersome on more than one level: it shows that one
of your main goals is not to create a good Mac application at this time (if that
were one of your main goals, then there wouldn't be such a lag in the app's
Mac-savvy), it shows that your engineers are either unaware or their knowledge
of how a Mac app should behave is suppressed for other reasons, it shows that
you do not value your beta testers' time (your beta testers should not be
telling you something that you can read about in widely known and publicly
available Apple documentation), it shows that you don't understand the Mac
market (or you would have known just how important polish is to Mac users -- the
polish that Opera has never had), and it shows that Opera isn't becoming a
better Mac app over time, but merely adding features available on other
platforms (and, if you knew your market, you would know that Mac users
appreciate developers who understand how a good Mac app behaves).
I wish you success, but for all of the above reasons, I have little to assure me
that Opera 7 will be any more successful on Mac OS than Opera 5 and Opera 6
were.
Trond Werner Hansen
Some comments to shed some more light on the issues you bring up.
Yes, the mac preview lacks a lot of polish. The same goes for the windows
version too btw, but it was seen as "good enough" for a preview, even
though mac users generally value such polish very high. While polishing
often is the most important 5% of work, there is still 95% of other stuff
that needs testing. (like, does stuff actually work?)
As you probably know, if opera for mac was a native cocoa app, much of
that polish would come for free, but since Opera doesn't currently have
enough resources to develop such a native browser ui, there needs to be
done a lot of additional polishing and tweaking to the platform
independent UI kit before most is happy. I say most, because everyone will
never be happy, since not being cocoa means it'll never be "perfect". I
understand those users that want it "perfect" very well, but there's just
no other solution for us at this moment.
You seem to feel that more polishing should have been done before the
first preview, and that's a fair opinion, but we felt otherwise since
there was lots of stuff (most in fact) that needed testing that could
already by tested by releasing at that time.
Btw, the most important unpolished part is, as you've discovered, the
native-look-skin, especially since it's missing the new icons (the windows
version don't have them either).
Trond.
Miro Jurisic
"Trond Werner Hansen" <tr...@opera.com> wrote:
> Yes, the mac preview lacks a lot of polish. The same goes for the windows
> version too btw, but it was seen as "good enough" for a preview, even
> though mac users generally value such polish very high. While polishing
> often is the most important 5% of work, there is still 95% of other stuff
> that needs testing. (like, does stuff actually work?)
Good luck finding enough Mac users who will put up with the UI long enough to
find out if stuff works or not.
> As you probably know, if opera for mac was a native cocoa app, much of
> that polish would come for free, but since Opera doesn't currently have
> enough resources to develop such a native browser ui, there needs to be
> done a lot of additional polishing and tweaking to the platform
> independent UI kit before most is happy. I say most, because everyone will
> never be happy, since not being cocoa means it'll never be "perfect". I
> understand those users that want it "perfect" very well, but there's just
> no other solution for us at this moment.
Carbon is a first class citizen on Mac OS X. It is equally possible for a Carbon
app and a Cocoa app to be good or "perfect" (but, yes, it is more work for
Carbon developers). Not being Cocoa most certainly does not imply not being
perfect. I don't know if you are implying that I come off as a Cocoa nut, but
trust me, I am far from.
> Btw, the most important unpolished part is, as you've discovered, the
> native-look-skin, especially since it's missing the new icons (the windows
> version don't have them either).
Calling the current state of Opera 7 interface "unpolished" is a huge
overstatement of its quality. The amount of stuff that is wrong is much bigger
than what I can sweep under the rug of unpolishedness.
Trond Werner Hansen
> In article <opr5619f...@news.opera.com>,
> "Trond Werner Hansen" <tr...@opera.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, the mac preview lacks a lot of polish. The same goes for the
>> windows
>> version too btw, but it was seen as "good enough" for a preview, even
>> though mac users generally value such polish very high. While polishing
>> often is the most important 5% of work, there is still 95% of other
>> stuff
>> that needs testing. (like, does stuff actually work?)
>
> Good luck finding enough Mac users who will put up with the UI long
> enough to
> find out if stuff works or not.
Actually, the preview has been very well received by many, and we're
getting lots of useful testing done.
>> As you probably know, if opera for mac was a native cocoa app, much of
>> that polish would come for free, but since Opera doesn't currently have
>> enough resources to develop such a native browser ui, there needs to be
>> done a lot of additional polishing and tweaking to the platform
>> independent UI kit before most is happy. I say most, because everyone
>> will
>> never be happy, since not being cocoa means it'll never be "perfect". I
>> understand those users that want it "perfect" very well, but there's
>> just
>> no other solution for us at this moment.
>
> Carbon is a first class citizen on Mac OS X. It is equally possible for
> a Carbon
> app and a Cocoa app to be good or "perfect" (but, yes, it is more work
> for
> Carbon developers). Not being Cocoa most certainly does not imply not
> being
> perfect. I don't know if you are implying that I come off as a Cocoa
> nut, but
> trust me, I am far from.
I never intended to imply that you come off as a "cocoa nut". In fact, by
raising that issue, I get the impression that you feel that I was somehow
joining an argument of some sort and attacking you. That would never cross
my mind. I was just trying to be helpful by explaining what the preview
was about and how we could ship such a preview even though it had some
obvious flaws and lack of polishing.
What I meant to say is just that since we don't have resources to make a
"native app" as such, which would have included both a design and
implementation specifically meant for MacOSX, we have to put extra effort
into making it feel more native and that effort is lacking in the preview.
Regards,
Trond.
OmegaJunior
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 18:56:57 -0400, Miro Jurisic wrote:
>
>> Good luck finding enough Mac users who will put up with the UI long
>> enough to
>> find out if stuff works or not.
>
> Actually, the preview has been very well received by many, and we're
> getting lots of useful testing done.
>
I am one of the happy users of O7 tp for Mac, but I tend to be biased as
its Windows version is my preferred browser on the MS platform. I see the
differences between Opera and the rest of the Mac apps, but even Apple's
developers make huge design mistakes. I could point some out, but we'll
sway from this topic.
I'm positive Opera will publish another preview soon enough, which is more
like a Mac application. Remember that this is the first incarnation of the
version 7 browser for Mac.
OJ
--
O7tp3 W2K
Erik Sandblom
wrote:
> Yes, the mac preview lacks a lot of polish. The same goes for the
> windows version too btw, but it was seen as "good enough" for a preview,
> even though mac users generally value such polish very high.
Opera has put a lot of work into making the UI customisable. They can do a
lot of macification without writing any platform-specific code. Maybe it
won't be totally cocoa-like, but almost.
Erik Sandblom
--
my site is http://EriksRailNews.com