Bloody Nazi-Swine !!!!!!!!!
Happy Oyster
program is installed in GERMAN.
Which bloody Nazi swine is responsible for this blasphemy!?
NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
Adolf Hitler would be proud of you, Jon Tezchner!
.
--
Die volle H�rte: http://www.kindersprechstunde.at
***************************************************************
Die Medienmafia � Die Regividerm-Verschw�rung
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=5710
Remco Lanting
<happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
> When I update Opera 10.10 (downloaded from an AMERICAN SITE) the
> installed program is installed in GERMAN.
>
> NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
Opera defaults to what the OS is set to. If you want to change the
language, see Tools -> Preferences -> General tab and then the dropdown at
the bottom. For more language options, hit the details button next to it.
--
Remco Lanting
[Unofficial Opera bug tracker links]
http://opera.remcol.ath.cx/bugs |
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=217364 |
remco.lanting...@gmail.com
Happy Oyster
<remco....@no.spam.at.gmail.com.please> wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:03:05 +0100, Happy Oyster
><happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> When I update Opera 10.10 (downloaded from an AMERICAN SITE) the
>> installed program is installed in GERMAN.
>>
>> NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
>
>Opera defaults to what the OS is set to. If you want to change the
>language, see Tools -> Preferences -> General tab and then the dropdown at
>the bottom. For more language options, hit the details button next to it.
That does not work. The language displayed is English, but in reality it is
German.
Do stop that geo-shit!
ceed
<happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:31:57 +0100, "Remco Lanting"
> <remco....@no.spam.at.gmail.com.please> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:03:05 +0100, Happy Oyster
>> <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When I update Opera 10.10 (downloaded from an AMERICAN SITE) the
>>> installed program is installed in GERMAN.
>>>
>>> NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
>>
>> Opera defaults to what the OS is set to. If you want to change the
>> language, see Tools -> Preferences -> General tab and then the dropdown
>> at
>> the bottom. For more language options, hit the details button next to
>> it.
>
> That does not work. The language displayed is English, but in reality it
> is
> German.
So what you are saying is that you have set the language to English but
the user interface is still German? When you downloaded (regardless of
which country you downloaded from) did you get the English (US) version or
the international one? If your language is English the English (US) only
would be a safe bet. The international version will display English also,
but you are then installing support for a lot of languages you won't need,
and in this case it may have contributed to your problem.
>
> Do stop that geo-shit!
I am not sure what you mean by that. Most programs have language settings,
and for most people that is a good thing. For some reason your locale
settings got messed up when you installed/upgraded. Yelling at Germans and
their language won't fix it for you.
> .
--
//ceed
Jens Schuessler
>> That does not work. The language displayed is English, but in reality it
>> is
>> German.
>
> So what you are saying is that you have set the language to English but
> the user interface is still German? When you downloaded (regardless of
> which country you downloaded from) did you get the English (US) version or
> the international one? If your language is English the English (US) only
> would be a safe bet. The international version will display English also,
> but you are then installing support for a lot of languages you won't need,
> and in this case it may have contributed to your problem.
>>
>> Do stop that geo-shit!
>
> I am not sure what you mean by that. Most programs have language settings,
> and for most people that is a good thing. For some reason your locale
> settings got messed up when you installed/upgraded. Yelling at Germans and
> their language won't fix it for you.
>> .
Don't feed the german troll!
Happy Oyster
>On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:58:12 -0600, Happy Oyster
><happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:31:57 +0100, "Remco Lanting"
>> <remco....@no.spam.at.gmail.com.please> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:03:05 +0100, Happy Oyster
>>> <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I update Opera 10.10 (downloaded from an AMERICAN SITE) the
>>>> installed program is installed in GERMAN.
>>>>
>>>> NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
>>>
>>> Opera defaults to what the OS is set to. If you want to change the
>>> language, see Tools -> Preferences -> General tab and then the dropdown
>>> at
>>> the bottom. For more language options, hit the details button next to
>>> it.
>>
>> That does not work. The language displayed is English, but in reality it
>> is
>> German.
>
>So what you are saying is that you have set the language to English but
>the user interface is still German? When you downloaded (regardless of
>which country you downloaded from) did you get the English (US) version or
>the international one?
There are only 2 versions: opera 10.10 for SuSE 11.1 and the other for SuSE 11.2
I took the first one and installed with
rpm -Uhv {filename}
The installed language is claimed to be English, but the vocabulary set is "de".
This can only bee seen if (despite the lying display) one checks the deeper
settings.
>If your language is English the English (US) only
>would be a safe bet.
I want ENGLISH exclusively. German is not a language for computers.
> The international version will display English also,
>but you are then installing support for a lot of languages you won't need,
>and in this case it may have contributed to your problem.
I ha NO CHOICE, because I was not asked during installation and there is no
switch to set. The whole process is run automatically.
>> Do stop that geo-shit!
>
>I am not sure what you mean by that. Most programs have language settings,
>and for most people that is a good thing. For some reason your locale
>settings got messed up when you installed/upgraded. Yelling at Germans and
>their language won't fix it for you.
I am not yelling at Germans. The point is that "people" press upon us geographic
settings. Like: if I surf in the net I am bombarded with sex advertisement OF
THE REGION MY IP ISDLOSES. The swine take the IP and set the answers to my
browser with FILTERED INFORMATION. That is highest level fraud. And in the case
of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
Have you ever read Hebrew, Arabic, Thai or other hierogryphical languages? Try
it! Install a programm if you are in a different gerographical area and see how
these Nazi swine mess up you computer by smearing hieroglyphs onto the screen.
Or try is with something simpler, like Finnish, Norvegian, or French. And Thais
and Arabs will be very happy to see German dreck on their screens.
Programmers, do get your fingers off of national or language parameters!!!
**************************************************************************
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:17:49 -0600, ceed <cdposte...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:58:12 -0600, Happy Oyster
>><happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:31:57 +0100, "Remco Lanting"
>>> <remco....@no.spam.at.gmail.com.please> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:03:05 +0100, Happy Oyster
>>>> <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When I update Opera 10.10 (downloaded from an AMERICAN SITE) the
>>>>> installed program is installed in GERMAN.
>>>>>
>>>>> NOWHERE is a switch to be found to set the installation language.
>>>>
>>>> Opera defaults to what the OS is set to. If you want to change the
>>>> language, see Tools -> Preferences -> General tab and then the dropdown
>>>> at
>>>> the bottom. For more language options, hit the details button next to
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> That does not work. The language displayed is English, but in reality it
>>> is
>>> German.
>>
>>So what you are saying is that you have set the language to English but
>>the user interface is still German?
[...]
> The installed language is claimed to be English, but the vocabulary set is "de".
> This can only bee seen if (despite the lying display) one checks the deeper
> settings.
Now you're confusing me. Exactly what is it that is german? Is the
language in the user interface (like the menu entries) in german? Or is
it something else? Which setting in particular is it that reveals that
opera is in "german"?
[...]
> And in the case
> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
If opera automatically chooses to use german localization when your
system is set to a us english locale, then that is certainly a bug. On
the other hand, if your system is set to a german locale, it would be a
bug if we did not use the german localization.
There have been programs that have chosen localization based on the
computer's location rather than the user-specified language. That is
plain wrong, and I hope we don't do that.
eirik
Jorgen Grahn
...
>
> Don't feed the german troll!
Yeah. I had him killfiled already. I forget why, but this
latest posting would have been reason enough. It's a good
policy not to talk to crazy, angry people.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Happy Oyster
wrote:
Yes.
Ever used a Russian one? Or Greek?
> Or is
>it something else? Which setting in particular is it that reveals that
>opera is in "german"?
>
>[...]
>> And in the case
>> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
>> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
>
>If opera automatically chooses to use german localization when your
>system is set to a us english locale, then that is certainly a bug.
The installer must NEVER touch that!!!
Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
installing!
> On
>the other hand, if your system is set to a german locale, it would be a
>bug if we did not use the german localization.
>
>There have been programs that have chosen localization based on the
>computer's location rather than the user-specified language. That is
>plain wrong, and I hope we don't do that.
>
>eirik
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
I've used japanese. It worked fine. I've probably tried norwegian, but
I generally dislike that.
If you have set your "preferred language for Opera and web pages" to
english and still have german menus, that is a bug. Please file a bug
report.
[...]
>>> And in the case
>>> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
>>> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
>>
>>If opera automatically chooses to use german localization when your
>>system is set to a us english locale, then that is certainly a bug.
>
> The installer must NEVER touch that!!!
The installer must not touch what?
The system locale settings? Of course it shouldn't. And I'm sure we
don't. That would just be beyond stupid.
Opera's UI language? Of course it must set that. Otherwise you'd have
no strings in the UI at all. And obviously it should set it to the
language that you have explicitly requested through your system's locale
setting.
> Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
> installing!
If you have requested german (by setting your locale to german), then we
should give you german (not english) without asking.
The only case where we should choose US english when the user has not
explicitly requested it is when we can't determine what the user wants.
In this case US english is almost certainly the right choice.
eirik
Happy Oyster
wrote:
No. Why should I?
The installer MUST NOT touch national or language settings without asking!
**************************************************************************
>[...]
>>>> And in the case
>>>> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
>>>> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
>>>
>>>If opera automatically chooses to use german localization when your
>>>system is set to a us english locale, then that is certainly a bug.
>>
>> The installer must NEVER touch that!!!
>
>The installer must not touch what?
>
>The system locale settings? Of course it shouldn't. And I'm sure we
>don't. That would just be beyond stupid.
Wrong. It installer GERMAN, which is absolutely forbidden!
>Opera's UI language? Of course it must set that. Otherwise you'd have
>no strings in the UI at all. And obviously it should set it to the
>language that you have explicitly requested through your system's locale
>setting.
Wrong.
I did NOT request such a mess.
>> Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
>> installing!
>
>If you have requested german (by setting your locale to german), then we
>should give you german (not english) without asking.
>
>The only case where we should choose US english when the user has not
>explicitly requested it is when we can't determine what the user wants.
>In this case US english is almost certainly the right choice.
>
>eirik
*I* did not "explicitely request". *I* was not even asked by the installer.
Will that please be understood now?
.
David W. Hodgins
> Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
> installing!
No one else seems to have had this problem, so it's something
specific to either the setup of your system, or the install
method you chose.
What specific file did you download, and from where?
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:36:02 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
>> installing!
>
>No one else seems to have had this problem, so it's something
>specific to either the setup of your system, or the install
>method you chose.
No. People just do not realize what is done to them.
>What specific file did you download, and from where?
opera-10.10.gcc4.shared.qt3.i386_susue_11_1.rpm
Regards,
Aribert Deckers
.
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:51:50 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
><dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:36:02 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Either it installs in the Lingua Franca (id est English!) or it asks BEFORE
>>> installing!
>>
>>No one else seems to have had this problem, so it's something
>>specific to either the setup of your system, or the install
>>method you chose.
>
>No. People just do not realize what is done to them.
>
>
>>What specific file did you download, and from where?
>
>opera-10.10.gcc4.shared.qt3.i386_susue_11_1.rpm
Sorry, that is the file name on HDD to distinguish the versions.
It was
>opera-10.10.gcc4.shared.qt3.i386.rpm
Downloaded twice, from different servers.
David W. Hodgins
>> opera-10.10.gcc4.shared.qt3.i386.rpm
> Downloaded twice, from different servers.
I'm using Mandriva linux, which also uses rpm packages. You can
see what the installer (rpm) has done using "rpm -q -l opera"
(to see a list of files included in the install), and also
"rpm -q --scripts opera", to see the script (in the postinstall
scriptlet section), that is executed.
I currently have opera-10.20-4744.gcc4.qt4.i386.rpm installed,
and the script only creates the .desktop and menu entry files, as
needed based on the desktop manager(s) installed, with some
additionalcustomization for some distributions. Looking through
the list of files, and the installation script, I see nothing
that affects language settings.
Same with opera-10.10.gcc4.qt4.i386.rpm which I have on disk,
and can view the script/list of files using mc. I doubt the
qt3 version is any different.
It doesn't look like an installer problem to me. I'm not sure
exactly which settings are examined by opera when it first
starts, to select the language. Once it's made it's selection,
it'll stick with what's specified in the .ini file, until you
change it.
Please open a terminal (for example, konsole, or gnome terminal),
and run the following commands ...
$ env|grep LC
$ mkdir ~/testopera
$ opera -pd ~/testopera
This will use ~/testopera instead of ~/.opera. Does it still
show German language for the menu entries? Please post the
output of the "env|grep LC" command.
Remco Lanting
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> $ env|grep LC
> $ mkdir ~/testopera
> $ opera -pd ~/testopera
The mkdir is not needed. Opera for linux automatically creates the
directory if it doesn't exist contrary to the windows version. I also
suggest using /tmp/operaprofile or similar instead of a new directory
inside the home dir.
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>I'm using Mandriva linux, which also uses rpm packages. You can
>see what the installer (rpm) has done using "rpm -q -l opera"
>(to see a list of files included in the install), and also
>"rpm -q --scripts opera", to see the script (in the postinstall
>scriptlet section), that is executed.
-----------------------------------------------
linux:~ # rpm -q -l opera
/etc/operaprefs_default.ini
/etc/operaprefs_fixed.ini
/usr/bin
/usr/bin/opera
/usr/lib/opera
/usr/lib/opera/missingsyms.so
/usr/lib/opera/opera
/usr/lib/opera/operaplugincleaner
/usr/lib/opera/operapluginwrapper
/usr/lib/opera/operapluginwrapper-ia32-linux
/usr/lib/opera/operapluginwrapper-native
/usr/lib/opera/plugins
/usr/lib/opera/spellcheck.so
/usr/lib/opera/works
/usr/share
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/opera
/usr/share/doc/opera/LGPL
/usr/share/doc/opera/LICENSE
/usr/share/icons
/usr/share/icons/hicolor
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/128x128/apps/opera.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/opera.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/apps/opera.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/opera.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/opera.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps/opera.svg
/usr/share/man
/usr/share/man/man1
/usr/share/man/man1/opera.1.gz
/usr/share/opera
/usr/share/opera/defaults
/usr/share/opera/defaults/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/defaults/feedreaders.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/filehandler.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/font.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/license.txt
/usr/share/opera/defaults/mailproviders.xml
/usr/share/opera/defaults/pluginpath.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/standard_trusted_repositories.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/webmailproviders.ini
/usr/share/opera/defaults/xmlentities.ini
/usr/share/opera/encoding.bin
/usr/share/opera/extra
/usr/share/opera/extra/missingplugin.svg
/usr/share/opera/extra/missingpluginhover.svg
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-mo.dat
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-mobd.dat
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-sa.dat
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-sabd.dat
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-se.dat
/usr/share/opera/extra/svg-sebd.dat
/usr/share/opera/html40_entities.dtd
/usr/share/opera/java
/usr/share/opera/java/opera.jar
/usr/share/opera/java/opera.policy
/usr/share/opera/lngcode.txt
/usr/share/opera/locale
/usr/share/opera/locale/be
/usr/share/opera/locale/be/be.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/be/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/be/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/be/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/bg
/usr/share/opera/locale/bg/bg.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/cs
/usr/share/opera/locale/cs/cs.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/da
/usr/share/opera/locale/da/da.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/de
/usr/share/opera/locale/de/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/de/de.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/de/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/de/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/el
/usr/share/opera/locale/el/el.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/en
/usr/share/opera/locale/en-GB
/usr/share/opera/locale/en-GB/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/en-GB/en-GB.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/en-GB/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/en-GB/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/en.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/en.zip
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/license.txt
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/en/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-ES
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-ES/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-ES/es-ES.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-ES/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-ES/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-LA
/usr/share/opera/locale/es-LA/es-LA.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/et
/usr/share/opera/locale/et/et.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/fi
/usr/share/opera/locale/fi/fi.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr-CA
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr-CA/fr-CA.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr/fr.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/fr/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/fy
/usr/share/opera/locale/fy/fy.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/hi
/usr/share/opera/locale/hi/hi.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/hi/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/hr
/usr/share/opera/locale/hr/hr.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/hu
/usr/share/opera/locale/hu/hu.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/id
/usr/share/opera/locale/id/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/id/id.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/id/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/it
/usr/share/opera/locale/it/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/it/it.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/it/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/it/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja/ja.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja/license.txt
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/ja/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/ka
/usr/share/opera/locale/ka/ka.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ko
/usr/share/opera/locale/ko/ko.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/lt
/usr/share/opera/locale/lt/lt.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/mk
/usr/share/opera/locale/mk/mk.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/nb
/usr/share/opera/locale/nb/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/nb/nb.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/nb/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/nb/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/nl
/usr/share/opera/locale/nl/nl.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/nn
/usr/share/opera/locale/nn/nn.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/pl
/usr/share/opera/locale/pl/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/pl/pl.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/pl/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/pl/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/pt
/usr/share/opera/locale/pt-BR
/usr/share/opera/locale/pt-BR/pt-BR.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/pt/pt.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ro
/usr/share/opera/locale/ro/ro.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ru
/usr/share/opera/locale/ru/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/ru/ru.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ru/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/ru/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/sk
/usr/share/opera/locale/sk/sk.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/sr
/usr/share/opera/locale/sr/sr.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/sv
/usr/share/opera/locale/sv/sv.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/ta
/usr/share/opera/locale/ta/ta.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/te
/usr/share/opera/locale/te/te.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/tr
/usr/share/opera/locale/tr/tr.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/uk
/usr/share/opera/locale/uk/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/uk/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/uk/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/uk/uk.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/bookmarks.adr
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/browser.js
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/search.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/standard_speeddial.ini
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/turbosettings.xml
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-cn/zh-cn.lng
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-hk
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-hk/browser.js
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-hk/turbosettings.xml
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-tw
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-tw/browser.js
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-tw/turbosettings.xml
/usr/share/opera/locale/zh-tw/zh-tw.lng
/usr/share/opera/package-id.ini
/usr/share/opera/scripts
/usr/share/opera/scripts/common.js
/usr/share/opera/scripts/substance.js
/usr/share/opera/skin
/usr/share/opera/skin/standard_skin.zip
/usr/share/opera/styles
/usr/share/opera/styles/about.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/cache.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/certinfo.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/config.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/contentblock.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/debug.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/dir.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/error.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/history.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/im.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/image.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/images
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/Opera_256x256.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/bar.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/bullet.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/center.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/customize.gif
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/darkBox.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/defaultFavicon.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/error.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/file.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/flag.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/folder.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/header-expanded.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/header.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/opera.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/page-bot.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/red_center.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/red_left.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/red_right.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/root.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/section.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/smartGroup.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/top.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/images/warning.png
/usr/share/opera/styles/info.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/m2_welcome_message.mbs
/usr/share/opera/styles/mail.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/mathml.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/message.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/mime.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/opera.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/plugins.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/search.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/unstyledxml.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/accessibility.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/altdebugger.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/classid.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/contrastbw.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/contrastwb.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/disablebreaks.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/disablefloats.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/disableforms.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/disablepositioning.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/disabletables.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/outline.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/structureblock.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/structureinline.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/structuretables.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/tablelayout.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/user/toc.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/warning.css
/usr/share/opera/styles/webfeeds.html
/usr/share/opera/styles/wml.css
/usr/share/opera/ui
/usr/share/opera/ui/dialog.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/fastforward.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/standard_keyboard.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/standard_keyboard_compat.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/standard_menu.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/standard_mouse.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/standard_toolbar.ini
/usr/share/opera/ui/unix_keyboard.ini
/usr/share/opera/unite
/usr/share/opera/unite/fileSharing.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/fridge.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/home.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/mediaPlayer.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/messenger.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/photoSharing.ua
/usr/share/opera/unite/webserver.ua
/usr/share/pixmaps
/usr/share/pixmaps/opera.xpm
-----------------------------------------------
>
>I currently have opera-10.20-4744.gcc4.qt4.i386.rpm installed,
>and the script only creates the .desktop and menu entry files, as
>needed based on the desktop manager(s) installed, with some
>additionalcustomization for some distributions. Looking through
>the list of files, and the installation script, I see nothing
>that affects language settings.
I see many language items copied to disk. But the point is: WHICH parameters are
set by Opera AT FIRST START?
>Same with opera-10.10.gcc4.qt4.i386.rpm which I have on disk,
>and can view the script/list of files using mc. I doubt the
>qt3 version is any different.
>
>It doesn't look like an installer problem to me. I'm not sure
>exactly which settings are examined by opera when it first
>starts, to select the language. Once it's made it's selection,
>it'll stick with what's specified in the .ini file, until you
>change it.
>
>Please open a terminal (for example, konsole, or gnome terminal),
>and run the following commands ...
>$ env|grep LC
>$ mkdir ~/testopera
>$ opera -pd ~/testopera
>
>This will use ~/testopera instead of ~/.opera. Does it still
>show German language for the menu entries? Please post the
>output of the "env|grep LC" command.
>
>Regards, Dave Hodgins
I don't understand what this is about.
The results are:
---------------------------------------
linux:~ # env|grep LC
LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
linux:~ # mkdir ~/testopera
linux:~ # opera -pd ~/testopera
NPP_GetValue()
NPP_GetValue()
NPP_GetValue()
linux:~ # env|grep LC
LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
---------------------------------------
The menues are in English.
David W. Hodgins
> linux:~ # env|grep LC
> LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
The above is the problem. The linux system has been set to use
German utf8 as the language. For U.S. English, this should be
set to en_US.UTF-8.
This was not caused by opera.
From a quick google search, suse normally sets this in
/etc/sysconfig/i18n, although that can be overridden by
settings in ~/.bashrc, ~/.profile, /etc/bashrc, or any of
the files sourced by /etc/bashrc.
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
[...]
>>This will use ~/testopera instead of ~/.opera. Does it still
>>show German language for the menu entries? Please post the
>>output of the "env|grep LC" command.
>>
>>Regards, Dave Hodgins
>
> I don't understand what this is about.
That explains a lot :)
"David W. Hodgins" <dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> writes:
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:40 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> linux:~ # env|grep LC
>> LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
>
> The above is the problem. The linux system has been set to use
> German utf8 as the language. For U.S. English, this should be
> set to en_US.UTF-8.
I'm a little bit vague on the exact meaning of the various LC values,
but I don't think LC_CTYPE should affect the displayed language. That
should be the domain of LC_MESSAGES, I think. (And LANG, of course.)
I would suggest using the "locale" command rather than "env|grep LC" to
show the locale settings. That will typically display more correct
values.
eirik
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:40 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> linux:~ # env|grep LC
>> LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
>
>The above is the problem.
No. Opera MUST NOT touch that. Opera MUST be installed either in Lingua Franca
OR with asking for the language.
> The linux system has been set to use
>German utf8 as the language. For U.S. English, this should be
>set to en_US.UTF-8.
>
>This was not caused by opera.
>
> From a quick google search, suse normally sets this in
>/etc/sysconfig/i18n, although that can be overridden by
>settings in ~/.bashrc, ~/.profile, /etc/bashrc, or any of
>the files sourced by /etc/bashrc.
>
>Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
How ? What is the command line for that?
Steinar Bang
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 09:05:14 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen <ei...@opera.com>
> wrote:
>> I would suggest using the "locale" command rather than "env|grep LC"
>> to show the locale settings. That will typically display more
>> correct values.
> How ? What is the command line for that?
Type
locale
and press return.
David W. Hodgins
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:55:56 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
> <dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:40 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> linux:~ # env|grep LC
>>> LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
>>
>> The above is the problem.
>
> No. Opera MUST NOT touch that. Opera MUST be installed either in Lingua Franca
> OR with asking for the language.
The locale setting was not changed by opera. You, or someone
else using your computer has set the system to use German.
You can enter the command "locale", to see the LANG setting
as well.
As in my prior reply, I think this is set in /etc/sysconfig/i18n
for suse. Try running "cat /etc/sysconfig/i18n" to confirm this.
Then edit the file to change it to en_US.UTF-8.
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:38:08 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:55:56 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
>> <dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:37:40 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> linux:~ # env|grep LC
>>>> LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
>>>
>>> The above is the problem.
>>
>> No. Opera MUST NOT touch that. Opera MUST be installed either in Lingua Franca
>> OR with asking for the language.
>
>The locale setting was not changed by opera.
You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
> You, or someone
>else using your computer has set the system to use German.
>You can enter the command "locale", to see the LANG setting
>as well.
>
>As in my prior reply, I think this is set in /etc/sysconfig/i18n
>for suse. Try running "cat /etc/sysconfig/i18n" to confirm this.
>Then edit the file to change it to en_US.UTF-8.
>
>Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Happy Oyster
Ah, thanks. I thought that there were some parameters involved.
-----------------------------------------
locale
LANG=de_DE.UTF-8
LC_CTYPE="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="de_DE.UTF-8"
LC_ALL=
-----------------------------------------
That - to me - is a typical installation uf SuSE in German. The problem is that
many DVDs wander around which are ONLY German, so the person can only install
SuSE in German.
The nationalized stuff is a big mess.
If possible, I use "international" installers.
.
ceed
<happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>> The locale setting was not changed by opera.
>
> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
Opera, or any program, should read locale settings which is a good thing
since some language have special characters. I am bi-lingual myself and
really appreciate being able to set my system to a certain locale settings
which programs mostly follows. I am sorry it has inconvenienced you, but
for most people global locale settings is convenient.
>
>
>> You, or someone
>> else using your computer has set the system to use German.
>> You can enter the command "locale", to see the LANG setting
>> as well.
>>
>> As in my prior reply, I think this is set in /etc/sysconfig/i18n
>> for suse. Try running "cat /etc/sysconfig/i18n" to confirm this.
>> Then edit the file to change it to en_US.UTF-8.
>>
>> Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
//ceed
Happy Oyster
>On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:41:51 -0600, Happy Oyster
><happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> The locale setting was not changed by opera.
>>
>> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
>
>Opera, or any program, should read locale settings which is a good thing
>since some language have special characters. I am bi-lingual myself and
>really appreciate being able to set my system to a certain locale settings
>which programs mostly follows. I am sorry it has inconvenienced you, but
>for most people global locale settings is convenient.
It is not "inconvenient", it is a gigantic mess.
Have you ever been confronted with your system being messed up with hieroglyphs
because some idiot installer messed up char sets?
An installer MUST ASK which language and with character sets to use.
The various programs on a computer have totally differents tasks, which MUST NOT
be mixed up by spoiling their very special character sets!
.
David W. Hodgins
> An installer MUST ASK which language and with character sets to use.
The installer in this case is the suse installer, not opera.
You've configured your system to use German. Opera didn't
do that, you did. If you want English, change the
configuration.
David W. Hodgins
> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
How else is opera supposed to know what language the user
is using? Up until now, you've been saying opera changed
the locale setting, which it did not.
In order to follow linux standards, opera MUST READ IT!
If you don't want programs that use the locale setting to
show you German, then don't set the system up to use
German as the default!
Change the locale setting to en_US, if that's what you want.
Don't complain when a program follows the standards that it
is supposed to be following.
David W. Hodgins
> The nationalized stuff is a big mess.
It's simple if you understand that there is one place where
the language is set for the system (override-able by individual
users). Individual programs do not have their own language
settings.
Imagine what it would be like for non-english users, if they
had to use an English interface to select their own language,
for every program. You select the language once, when you
install linux, and that's it.
Naruki Bigglesworth
I understand. I get this problem (in Windows) all the time. I have a Japanese OS, because I
cannot get English in my office. I cannot read Japanese (very well), so I always try to install
English versions of software. About half of the time this fails because they are reading my
system settings.
People here are mistakenly saying we explicitly chose the language settings. I can only guess
they don't understand the meaning of the word explicit, or perhaps they have some other
problem. In any event, I did not choose Japanese. However, I can change things a bit.
But this is where the problem gets more thorny. In programming terms, there are languages and
regions. Languages are specified by a language code (such as "en" or "de"), and regions by a
country code (such as "US" or "DE").
If the language is sufficient to describe the document, the country code is not needed. The
language code is used primarily for the words, and the country code helps explain how numbers
and dates are presented.
But this is as applied to web pages or other simple use cases. Applying it to an entire
computing environment creates a new level of complexity that is not being addressed. Such as my
case, where I live in Japan but need English.
I don't know how Linux deals with this, but Windows makes it effing hard. The place to change
my system settings is called "Regional and Language Options" in English, but the Japanese is
unreadable to me. It has 3 tabs.
The first tab specifies "Regional Options", where I can select English/Japanese/whatever for
formatting dates, numbers, time, and currency.
It is retarded to use the names of languages here rather than countries, since those are
regional options, not language options (except for the names of months and days). I need to
leave this in "Japanese" so my settings match the rest of my office, otherwise we get lots of
confusion.
Below that I can select my "location", which as you know is Japan. Again, no reason for me to
set this to US, since I am not in the US.
These are the two settings most often responsible for programs running in Japanese language,
and that's effed up. What's worse is that most of the install guides don't tell you which
setting to change (and they aren't making a logical use of the settings to begin with).
The second tab is called "Languages", and this is where you would expect me to set the language
I want programs to use for their UI. They do not use this tab, and for good reason: Windows
specifies this for use in setting the input language. As in "what language I type in", not
"what language is used by the GUI".
Again, I use Japanese, since it contains English by default, and I have a Japanese keyboard. If
I change this, I have major headaches.
The third tab is "Advanced", and it is the first one that makes any sense regarding which
language a GUI should use: the drop down menu says "Language for non-Unicode programs". If you
have any old programs that don't support Unicode, this is the language they will handle as the
native format. Unfortunately for me, this also has to be Japanese or else every character from
my coworkers looks like squares. Another minus is that this is for old, out-of-date type
programs, not modern UIs.
In short, Windows never specifies a sensible option for display language. I imagine Linux is
equally dumb, although it would be nice to think they are better here.
However, assuming there was a logical setting for display language, then it would be absolutely
right for the program to install in that language by default, even if it is German. If you
don't like it, then you should change the setting. Bitching about it would be stupid and
pointless.
I don't know if that assumption is correct. If Linux is just as badly specified as Windows,
then you have a right to bitch about that defect. But you still shouldn't bitch about German
being used. That just makes you look like a racist.
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:41:51 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
>
IT MUST ASK THE PERSON, who is installing it!
*********************************************
David W. Hodgins
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:56:02 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
> <dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:41:51 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
>>
> IT MUST ASK THE PERSON, who is installing it!
> *********************************************
Then ask the person who installed linux for you, to install
windows. I've had enough of your whining.
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>> *I* did not "explicitely request". *I* was not even asked by the installer.
>> Will that please be understood now?
>
>I understand. I get this problem (in Windows) all the time. I have a Japanese OS, because I
>cannot get English in my office. I cannot read Japanese (very well), so I always try to install
>English versions of software. About half of the time this fails because they are reading my
>system settings.
So you have seen A BIT of the problems behind all that.
One thing is: If one is in Germany, "THEY" think that one speaks German. That is
WRONG. Imagine all the people who - may it be on vacation or on tour for their
company - are right now in Germany: Did they change their language? Of course
not.
One thing is: A person can have several languages in use. But that must never
affect the operating system. Or be affected BY the operating system.
One thing is: If you are ON LOCATION in Germany and try to download a program,
you are given one FOR GERMANY, which INCLUDES GERMAN language menues, German
language spell checker, German country code keyboard layout and key codes,
German time display and daytime setting.
Turn this around and take a notebook from Thailand to Germany... It is hell.
Take a person in Greece, whith a computer from Tailand, working in French and
Russian... And Arabic.
Imagine that this person downloads a program while being in Germany...
There is ONLY ONE WAY to deal with this: ASK THE PERSON!
One of the reasons why I am so angry: We don't get the REAL information, but
some filthered mess. When I read a web-page made in the USA, being on a US-based
server in the USA, I get the view of that page. If I read that page from
Germany, I am bombarded with advertisements from the local whores of towns
nearby. Why so?: Because the advertisements are based upon the IP I at the very
moment use when accessing the server of the web-page. This IP is handed over to
the server controlling the advertising. Imagine that I print this page for some
business purposes - including sex offers...
Imagine reading web-pages of, say, electronic device manufacturers. They not
only show youz web-pages, but track all the topics you read. This information is
stored and out of their vast assortment a subset is taken and linked in the
pages given to you to reaed. So, instead of being able to read ALL pages, your
view is diminished. And you do not know it. The officla terms are something like
"user-oriented". But that is bullshit. They want to sell you something and
concentrate on the things which t�hey BELIEVE interest you.
To make all these things possible there is a direct connection between your
bworser and the server. This connection uses a lot of parameters you never get
to know. In the extreme case you see only ONE SINGLE URL on the screen. No
matter if the web-server has 5 pages or 20_000. All the time only one single
URL. Now: How do you give another person the URL of what you saw on the screen?
You simply cannot!
Just take this as an example:
As I said: The connection exists HIDDEN to you, directly between browser and
server. All this mess was made INTENTIONALLY for advertising. I forgot the
details, but some years ago it waa unveiled, that Opera browser, despite the
switches being set NOT to do some things, overruled the setting given by the
user. That is a criminal attack.
For some tasks we use proxies which intercept the connection between browser ans
server, just top be able to stop illegal attacks on our machines.
BEFORE all this mess was invented, the internet and the WWW worked quite well.
But it was greed and stupidity which made programmers commit these crimes to
attack our privacy. And things like language, location settings (like time),
keyboards settings, etc, etc ARE TOTALLY PRIVATE!!!
By the way: did you know that the German Bundestag made a law which forces
companies to give PERSONAL information of the employees to a central tax office?
Beginning with 1st. January 2010, all companies must give personal data of 40
million people, not only including the useful data like payment received for
work done, but also items like partizipation in strikes or personal quarrels
with the management ("Abmahnung"). That is Nazi-dreck of the utmost. Hitler,
Staling and Ulbricht would envy their followers...
The browser stuff is only a part of the whole social "development".
And it is Nazi-shit.
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:50:40 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:56:02 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
>> <dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:41:51 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
>>>
>> IT MUST ASK THE PERSON, who is installing it!
>> *********************************************
>
>Then ask the person who installed linux for you, to install
>windows. I've had enough of your whining.
That is bullshit.
.
ceed
And after all that (whatever it is) the questions remains: Why is your
locale set to German? Change it and Opera will follow. You make it sound
like some plot cooked up by a mix of Internet companies, browser vendors
and Nazis. That's almost funny, but only almost.
--
//ceed
Happy Oyster
>And after all that (whatever it is) the questions remains: Why is your
>locale set to German? Change it and Opera will follow.
NO! Opera MUST ASK!
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:40:17 +0100, Happy Oyster wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:23:28 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen <ei...@opera.com>
>> wrote:
>>>If you have requested german (by setting your locale to german), then we
>>>should give you german (not english) without asking.
>>>
>>>The only case where we should choose US english when the user has not
>>>explicitly requested it is when we can't determine what the user wants.
>>>In this case US english is almost certainly the right choice.
>>>
>>>eirik
>>
>> *I* did not "explicitely request". *I* was not even asked by the installer.
>> Will that please be understood now?
Ok, so the operating system installer did not ask you what language you
wanted your system to be in. That has nothing to do with opera. From
opera's point of view, your operating system claims that you want
german.
> I understand. I get this problem (in Windows) all the time. I have a Japanese OS, because I
> cannot get English in my office. I cannot read Japanese (very well), so I always try to install
> English versions of software. About half of the time this fails because they are reading my
> system settings.
>
> People here are mistakenly saying we explicitly chose the language settings. I can only guess
> they don't understand the meaning of the word explicit, or perhaps they have some other
> problem. In any event, I did not choose Japanese. However, I can
> change things a bit.
I understand this problem. It happens. However, I believe the problem
lies in the operating system. The operating system claims that you want
japanese (or german). I believe it would be more wrong for us or any
other software to ignore what the operating system says than to do as
the operating system instructs us.
(I do think it makes a lot of sense for applications to allow changing
such settings for that particular application. It happens sometimes
that I have an application that I wish to run with different settings
than what I want most applications to use. Of course, linux allows you
to set the locale settings per-process, so that helps with that
problem.)
> But this is where the problem gets more thorny. In programming terms, there are languages and
> regions. Languages are specified by a language code (such as "en" or "de"), and regions by a
> country code (such as "US" or "DE").
>
> If the language is sufficient to describe the document, the country code is not needed. The
> language code is used primarily for the words, and the country code helps explain how numbers
> and dates are presented.
That's not entirely accurate. I'm not particularly familiar with
windows, but on my linux system there are quite a few settings:
LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8"
The interpretation of "en_US.UTF-8" depends on which setting you use it
for. If you use it as a language (LC_MESSAGES), "en_US" is "US
english", which is a different language from "en_GB" (british english).
You need the full locale specification to know which language to use
(LC_MESSAGES) or how to format dates (LC_TIME) or numbers (LC_NUMERIC).
And you can freely choose different locales for different purposes.
(Which I probably would have done if I had taken the time to do
something about it. I want utf-8 text encoding, european paper sizes,
ISO date format, "default" messages and english decimal points.)
> But this is as applied to web pages or other simple use cases. Applying it to an entire
> computing environment creates a new level of complexity that is not being addressed. Such as my
> case, where I live in Japan but need English.
So you'd set all of the LC values (or rather, the LANG value) to
"en_US.UTF-8", like I do. (I don't think there is a locale setting for
"region", i.e. where you are physically located.)
Or, just use LC_MESSAGES as en_US.UTF-8 and keep LANG as ja_JP.UTF-8 if
you really need to have everything else in japanese. But then things
get more complex.
The real complexity enters the picture when someone wants to run in a
mixed-locale environment. As long as the whole environment is running
in a single locale, the complexity is fairly low.
[...]
> The first tab specifies "Regional Options", where I can select English/Japanese/whatever for
> formatting dates, numbers, time, and currency.
>
> It is retarded to use the names of languages here rather than countries, since those are
> regional options, not language options (except for the names of months
> and days).
It's wrong anyway. It needs to be a "locale", not a "language" nor a
"country". You can't be sure that any setting is uniquely specified
only from a "language" or a "region".
[...]
> Below that I can select my "location", which as you know is Japan. Again, no reason for me to
> set this to US, since I am not in the US.
Assuming windows actually mean "where are you located" (rather than "how
do you want software to present information"), that is probably correct.
I don't know why windows wants to know that, though.
[...]
> The third tab is "Advanced", and it is the first one that makes any sense regarding which
> language a GUI should use: the drop down menu says "Language for non-Unicode programs". If you
> have any old programs that don't support Unicode, this is the language they will handle as the
> native format. Unfortunately for me, this also has to be Japanese or else every character from
> my coworkers looks like squares. Another minus is that this is for old, out-of-date type
> programs, not modern UIs.
Actually, I don't think this sets the language at all. Only the
character set.
(From the above, including some of the parts I cut out, I think one of
your problems is that you don't understand what the windows locale
settings actually mean. I suspect this is mostly because windows goes
to great lengths to make it difficult to understand. Something I
remember as being quite typical for windows.)
> In short, Windows never specifies a sensible option for display language. I imagine Linux is
> equally dumb, although it would be nice to think they are better here.
I can't say much about windows, as I never cared much about localization
back when I was actually using windows. But I think linux is reasonably
well-defined. However, there's a fair chance that many programs do not
handle the settings correctly.
In particular, to change the text displayed by an application, you
should only have to set LC_MESSAGES. And that should not affect
anything else. (However, that shouldn't change the display of dates and
times, which sometimes form part of "messages". etc.)
Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:12:34 -0600, ceed <cdposte...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And after all that (whatever it is) the questions remains: Why is your
>>locale set to German? Change it and Opera will follow.
>
> NO! Opera MUST ASK!
Opera did ask. In the correct way, by checking LC_MESSAGES (probably).
If you don't want your messages in german, you should ensure that
LC_MESSAGES is not set to german. This is how things are supposed to
work. Any program that does not behave in that manner has a bug.
eirik
ceed
<ei...@opera.com> wrote:
>> Below that I can select my "location", which as you know is Japan.
>> Again, no reason for me to
>> set this to US, since I am not in the US.
> Assuming windows actually mean "where are you located" (rather than "how
> do you want software to present information"), that is probably correct.
> I don't know why windows wants to know that, though.
The reason Windows need(ed) to know was mostly for dialing location
purposes and getting US area codes right. This was used for getting
dial-up Internet connections to work and also fot the built in fax client.
--
//ceed
Jernej Simončič
> You still do not get it. I mean that opera MUST NOT READ IT.
Why? The locale settings are there for that exact purpose: to be used by
programs to know what language to use for their interface, and how to
properly do things that are locale-specific (this includes among other
things formatting numbers and sort ordering).
--
begin .sig
< Jernej Simončič ><>◊<>< jernej|s-ng at eternallybored.org >
end
Jernej Simončič
> NO! Opera MUST ASK!
It did ask, and your system told it "German!". If you don't like that, you
can change the language through Opera's preferences, or you could fix your
system so it doesn't instruct the applications you're running to use a
language you don't want.
Jernej Simončič
> Then ask the person who installed linux for you, to install
> windows. I've had enough of your whining.
That's a bad advice - Windows works in pretty much the same way :)
RavanH
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:35:22 +0100, Steinar Bang <s...@dod.no> wrote:
Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
Using a SuSwinE installation DVD and then blaming Opera? Tsjk...
I do not use (Open)SuSE but you might find some more on changing your
system locale on http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books//opensuse_guides/opensuse11.1_startup_guide/sec_y2_langmod.html
(Google is your friend)
ceed
<jer...@deepthought.ena.invalid> wrote:
> on Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:51:43 +0100, Happy Oyster wrote:
>
>> NO! Opera MUST ASK!
>
> It did ask, and your system told it "German!". If you don't like that,
> you
> can change the language through Opera's preferences, or you could fix
> your
> system so it doesn't instruct the applications you're running to use a
> language you don't want.
>
That's the answer right there!
--
//ceed
Naruki Bigglesworth
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:41:07 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> An installer MUST ASK which language and with character sets to use.
>
> The installer in this case is the suse installer, not opera.
> You've configured your system to use German. Opera didn't
> do that, you did. If you want English, change the
> configuration.
Bad assumption. He may not have installed Linux, or he may not have been prompted to choose a
language when he did.
It is fine to say that the OS expects German, but not fine to accuse him of changing that
setting unless he tells you he did.
Naruki Bigglesworth
> Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com> writes:
>> I understand. I get this problem (in Windows) all the time. I have a Japanese OS, because I
>> cannot get English in my office. I cannot read Japanese (very well), so I always try to install
>> English versions of software. About half of the time this fails because they are reading my
>> system settings.
>>
>> People here are mistakenly saying we explicitly chose the language settings. I can only guess
>> they don't understand the meaning of the word explicit, or perhaps they have some other
>> problem. In any event, I did not choose Japanese. However, I can
>> change things a bit.
>
> I understand this problem. It happens. However, I believe the problem
> lies in the operating system. The operating system claims that you want
> japanese (or german).
Not really. The OS has a code assigned to setting A, another code assigned to setting B, etc.
None of that implies that's what I want or that I had anything at all to do with it.
Some _people_ might make that sort of assumption, but they shouldn't. I might have changed
those settings, but you don't know if I did or not, and the OS cannot "claim" that I did. It
can only report what codes are assigned to those settings.
This is a semantic point, but it is a very important one. You assume it was the user's will,
and that assumption is completely unfounded.
> I believe it would be more wrong for us or any
> other software to ignore what the operating system says than to do as
> the operating system instructs us.
Possibly. The fact is, the specifications are poorly designed, so deciding exactly what the OS
is instructing us is not as simple as you think. (Speaking from Windows perspective, here.)
What setting that I mentioned specifically tells programs the language I want them to display?
The only one that came close is one meant for old, non-I18N programs. And in Windows, changing
that setting requires a reboot (a major fucking PITA).
There _should_ be a specific, unambiguous setting specifically for the user's preference of UI
language (not just the numeric/date formatting). There is not. I can switch keyboard layouts
with a keystroke, I can change input language with another, but I cannot say "I want programs
(and the OS) to display in English".
In Windows, many programs use one setting, many other programs use a different setting, and
other still a third setting. It makes no sense, and it's because the specification is so
sloppy.
In light of that, I want the option to specify language when launching a program. Some programs
have this, but it often takes a lot of digging to find out. Like when I need to install the
latest Java VM, it is a horrible pain to locate the settings they use for the installer.
Launching the installed programs afterward requires a completely different setting. It tends to
make me pull my hair out.
> (I do think it makes a lot of sense for applications to allow changing
> such settings for that particular application. It happens sometimes
> that I have an application that I wish to run with different settings
> than what I want most applications to use. Of course, linux allows you
> to set the locale settings per-process, so that helps with that
> problem.)
If you look past Happy Oyster's paranoid ranting, that is mostly what he wants, although he
seems to think the program should prompt him. He doesn't really seem to be a very technical
person, or else his schizophrenia overrides his sense.
> on my linux system there are quite a few settings:
>
> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> [...]
> The interpretation of "en_US.UTF-8" depends on which setting you use it
> for. If you use it as a language (LC_MESSAGES), "en_US" is "US
> english", which is a different language from "en_GB" (british english).
> You need the full locale specification to know which language to use
> (LC_MESSAGES) or how to format dates (LC_TIME) or numbers (LC_NUMERIC).
>
> And you can freely choose different locales for different purposes.
> (Which I probably would have done if I had taken the time to do
> something about it. I want utf-8 text encoding, european paper sizes,
> ISO date format, "default" messages and english decimal points.)
That is very nice, but probably a big pain for the average user to figure out. Windows makes it
a GUI that you can customize freely, but doesn't offer quite as many options.
> [...]
>> Below that I can select my "location", which as you know is Japan. Again, no reason for me to
>> set this to US, since I am not in the US.
>
> Assuming windows actually mean "where are you located" (rather than "how
> do you want software to present information"), that is probably correct.
> I don't know why windows wants to know that, though.
Probably related to time zone. They may also share it with web pages that are too lazy to look
up your IP. Dunno.
> [...]
>> The third tab is "Advanced", and it is the first one that makes any sense regarding which
>> language a GUI should use: the drop down menu says "Language for non-Unicode programs". If you
>> have any old programs that don't support Unicode, this is the language they will handle as the
>> native format. Unfortunately for me, this also has to be Japanese or else every character from
>> my coworkers looks like squares. Another minus is that this is for old, out-of-date type
>> programs, not modern UIs.
>
> Actually, I don't think this sets the language at all. Only the
> character set.
You are mistaken. :-)
I just tried installing Oracle Express on a WinXP OS (English). The installer kept presenting
in Japanese. I changed all the settings to English on the first and second tabs, and no luck.
Only when I changed that third tab (and rebooted) did the installer present in English.
This is what chafes my britches. The standard is very poorly defined, and every programmer has
to decide which setting he wants to read (or just ignore them altogether).
> (From the above, including some of the parts I cut out, I think one of
> your problems is that you don't understand what the windows locale
> settings actually mean.
The problem is that _nobody_ does, because they aren't clearly (and comprehensively) specified.
I understand the few settings that are unambiguous, but even they are often mislabeled or used
for the wrong purpose. And the programmers can't really be blamed - it's MS' fault for not
being more clear.
> I suspect this is mostly because windows goes
> to great lengths to make it difficult to understand. Something I
> remember as being quite typical for windows.)
Yep. Hasn't changed, and probably won't. I bought Vista Ultimate for the language-switching
ability. It is native Japanese, but switches to English for my login. But only _mostly_
English. Error messages still pop up in Japanese, making it incredibly annoying and usually
impossible to diagnose.
>> In short, Windows never specifies a sensible option for display language. I imagine Linux is
>> equally dumb, although it would be nice to think they are better here.
>
> I can't say much about windows, as I never cared much about localization
> back when I was actually using windows. But I think linux is reasonably
> well-defined. However, there's a fair chance that many programs do not
> handle the settings correctly.
>
> In particular, to change the text displayed by an application, you
> should only have to set LC_MESSAGES. And that should not affect
> anything else. (However, that shouldn't change the display of dates and
> times, which sometimes form part of "messages". etc.)
That's nice, then. :-)
Naruki Bigglesworth
> Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
> Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
> Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
I really don't get why so many people think this way. You don't know who installed his OS, nor
whether he was prompted, so how can you assert as a fact that he chose those settings?
FFS, be logical and keep your minds open. You don't want to jump to irrational conclusions and
look like some ranting lunatic, because we've already got one Happy Oyster.
David W. Hodgins
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 07:26:05 -0800 (PST), RavanH wrote:
>> Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
>> Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
>> Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
>
> I really don't get why so many people think this way. You don't know who installed his OS, nor
> whether he was prompted, so how can you assert as a fact that he chose those settings?
The racist jerk stated that suse linux was installed. He refuses
to accept the answer that the problem is with the configuration
of his system, and that opera is following the correct methods
for deciding which language to use.
Whether he installed suse, and selected German, or accepted a
default included because he chose to download a German Version,
is his problem. Same if he had someone else do it. Screaming
NAZI is a racist piece of crap that I should have taken the hint
and put him in my filters immediately, instead of trying to help
him, and letting him get me pissed off. He has been told that
the problem has nothing to do with opera, and is purely caused by
the configuration of his system.
I chose to try to help him originally, and ignore the racist yank
crap, as I figured he was posting while pissed off. I got him
to run and post the output of enough commands to confirm the
problem was with the configuration of his system.
Instead of fixing the configuration of his system, he shouts that
opera "MUST NOT FOLLOW STANDARD PROCEDURES FOR LINUX PROGRAMS".
He is not intelligent enough to be running a linux system. He
fits the stereotype of the idiot yank. I'll thankfully never
see anything he posts again, unless he morphs his email address.
I appreciate that you are just trying to calm people down, but
in this case, this idiot should stick to internet explorer, and
all the malware that goes with it.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
Jens Schuessler
This dumb ass Oyster lives in Germany, he also speaks german and is a
well known usenet troll. So he wonders why his linux has german language
settings and his opera too? All that with a crappy "Nazi-Swine" title?
Muahahahahah...
This is stuff for /dev/null, this person wants no help, he just wants to
yell at opera, cause his douchy live is so fuckin boring and he has
nothing else to do.
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
That is a somewhat fine hair to split, but just to avoid that problem
let us rephrase it:
The system is configured to use German. If you want English, change
the configuration.
Whether it was the user himself, the sysadmin or just the default
settings of the OS installation doesn't really matter. From the point
of view of any application running on that system, it looks as if the
user himself chose that language.
eirik
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 07:26:05 -0800 (PST), RavanH wrote:
>> Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
>> Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
>> Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
>
> I really don't get why so many people think this way. You don't know who installed his OS, nor
> whether he was prompted, so how can you assert as a fact that he chose
> those settings?
Probably because it doesn't really matter. As far as opera (or any
other application) is concerned, he really did chose those settings
himself, regardless of whether he intended to do so or not.
But yes, we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt and accept
that he may have used a SuSE installer specifically designed for
germans, which naturally would default to german language without
asking.
> FFS, be logical and keep your minds open. You don't want to jump to irrational conclusions and
> look like some ranting lunatic, because we've already got one Happy Oyster.
Good advice to all there :)
eirik
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:30:15 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen wrote:
>
>> Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com> writes:
>>> I understand. I get this problem (in Windows) all the time. I have a Japanese OS, because I
>>> cannot get English in my office. I cannot read Japanese (very well), so I always try to install
>>> English versions of software. About half of the time this fails because they are reading my
>>> system settings.
>>>
>>> People here are mistakenly saying we explicitly chose the language settings. I can only guess
>>> they don't understand the meaning of the word explicit, or perhaps they have some other
>>> problem. In any event, I did not choose Japanese. However, I can
>>> change things a bit.
>>
>> I understand this problem. It happens. However, I believe the problem
>> lies in the operating system. The operating system claims that you want
>> japanese (or german).
>
> Not really. The OS has a code assigned to setting A, another code assigned to setting B, etc.
> None of that implies that's what I want or that I had anything at all
> to do with it.
>
>
> Some _people_ might make that sort of assumption, but they shouldn't. I might have changed
> those settings, but you don't know if I did or not, and the OS cannot "claim" that I did. It
> can only report what codes are assigned to those settings.
>
> This is a semantic point, but it is a very important one. You assume it was the user's will,
> and that assumption is completely unfounded.
If setting A means "the language applications should use to communicate
with the user", then it certainly implies that's what you want.
I'll grant you that it is possible that you did not choose that setting
yourself. Maybe your sysadmin did, maybe the installer automatically
chose it. But that doesn't really matter. There's no way for other
applications to know that, so they have to assume that the user made the
choice themselves. Any other behaviour would be worse (I believe).
After all, even if someone else made the choice for you, they did so
because they believed that's what you would have chosen yourself.
>> I believe it would be more wrong for us or any
>> other software to ignore what the operating system says than to do as
>> the operating system instructs us.
>
> Possibly. The fact is, the specifications are poorly designed, so deciding exactly what the OS
> is instructing us is not as simple as you think. (Speaking from
> Windows perspective, here.)
Maybe. I don't know what the windows settings means.
[...]
> In Windows, many programs use one setting, many other programs use a different setting, and
> other still a third setting. It makes no sense, and it's because the specification is so
> sloppy.
I wouldn't be surprised if the windows specification is quite clear on
this point, but that application developers haven't read them. This
seems to be the norm on windows. The obvious example is programs that
install themselves under "Program Files". Even in windows 3 the
specification was very clear that you shouldn't do that. (You should
ask the system what the application directory is called.)
>> on my linux system there are quite a few settings:
>>
>> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
>> [...]
>> The interpretation of "en_US.UTF-8" depends on which setting you use it
>> for. If you use it as a language (LC_MESSAGES), "en_US" is "US
>> english", which is a different language from "en_GB" (british english).
>> You need the full locale specification to know which language to use
>> (LC_MESSAGES) or how to format dates (LC_TIME) or numbers (LC_NUMERIC).
>>
>> And you can freely choose different locales for different purposes.
>> (Which I probably would have done if I had taken the time to do
>> something about it. I want utf-8 text encoding, european paper sizes,
>> ISO date format, "default" messages and english decimal points.)
>
> That is very nice, but probably a big pain for the average user to figure out. Windows makes it
> a GUI that you can customize freely, but doesn't offer quite as many options.
Not really. Most users should just set LANG to the locale they want.
All the LC_ settings will default to that. It's only if you want to mix
locales (which very few people should want to) that you have to deal
with this complexity.
>> (From the above, including some of the parts I cut out, I think one of
>> your problems is that you don't understand what the windows locale
>> settings actually mean.
>
> The problem is that _nobody_ does, because they aren't clearly (and comprehensively) specified.
> I understand the few settings that are unambiguous, but even they are often mislabeled or used
> for the wrong purpose. And the programmers can't really be blamed - it's MS' fault for not
> being more clear.
Right :)
I tend to feel the same way about many settings in Windows. I suspect
that most settings are in fact well defined. Mostly, when I've made the
effort to investigate, I've found that MS's documentation is mostly
quite good. I think the problem is that most developers do as most
users: They look at how the settings are described in the MS UI and try
to guess what it means instead of reading the documentation. (Mind you,
when I say that MS's documentation is usually quite good, I mean the
documentation for developers, not for end users...)
eirik
Jorgen Grahn
...
> But yes, we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt and accept
> that he may have used a SuSE installer specifically designed for
> germans, which naturally would default to german language without
> asking.
I vaguely recall from the past that SuSE in general tended to default
to German, unless you were careful when installing it. But that was
many years ago, when it was just beginning to spread outside .de.
>> FFS, be logical and keep your minds open. You don't want to jump to
>> irrational conclusions and
>> look like some ranting lunatic, because we've already got one Happy Oyster.
>
> Good advice to all there :)
I honestly believe the best advice is to killfile him and ignore other
people's replies to him. Bad vibes spread from person to person, and
before you know it opera.linux is an unfriendly place where people
have the flame-throwers lighted by default.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Steinar Bang
> This is stuff for /dev/null,
Nah... I found it entertaining. It's nostalgic to see a good old USENET
troll again, even if, strictly speaking, this isn't USENET.
But I guess all the new fancy schmanzy forums have their own breeds of
troll...?
ceed
I drew that conclusion about 10 posts back. You are spot on. Filter.
filter, people! :)
--
//ceed
ceed
>>>>>> Jens Schuessler <j...@trash.net>:
>
>> This is stuff for /dev/null,
>
> Nah... I found it entertaining. It's nostalgic to see a good old USENET
> troll again, even if, strictly speaking, this isn't USENET.
That's an interesting distinction. I am getting this group from my long
time Usenet News provider, so what is this then? :)
>
> But I guess all the new fancy schmanzy forums have their own breeds of
> troll...?
They have to be much more subtle there since most are moderated. On here
you can spot them after their first post. On a web forum it takes at least
10 posts from a troll before you know you're dealing with one. It has
become an art-form to troll on web forums though. Secretly (until now) I
sometimes admire how they get around the moderators and are sill able to
hit bulls eye with their trolling. Someone should write a book...eh
....blog about it! :)
--
//ceed
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>If you look past Happy Oyster's paranoid ranting, that is mostly what he wants, although he
>seems to think the program should prompt him. He doesn't really seem to be a very technical
>person, or else his schizophrenia overrides his sense.
The whole matter is much more complicated and suppressing than you realize.
As for my technical skills: sysadmin and programmer.
Did you ever install a program for a class of translators, which handles more
than a dozen languages SIMULTANEOUSLY? Great fun, I can tell you...
.
--
Die volle H�rte: http://www.kindersprechstunde.at
***************************************************************
Die Medienmafia � Die Regividerm-Verschw�rung
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=5710
Happy Oyster
wrote:
The previous version HAD English menues. That was changed by the installer AND
the parameter in the Opera setup said that the menues were in English, but they
were NOT. So, checking of the parameters did not work. ONLY if - despite the
lying parameter - one checks the DEEPER structures,l one finds that the ACTUAL
parameter is set to s strange path, which leads to a GERMAN menue language. To
change that, one has to have the knowledge of where to find the English menue in
the directroy paths. The ordinary user does not have that knowledge, so he is
stuck with the wrong language and with a programm which lies to him about the
set parameters. Very fine for people whose main joy is to be the Great BOFH of
the Company.
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 07:26:05 -0800 (PST), RavanH wrote:
>> Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
>> Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
>> Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
>
>I really don't get why so many people think this way. You don't know who installed his OS, nor
>whether he was prompted, so how can you assert as a fact that he chose those settings?
One major problem is that some Linux distributions by default install German,
and that cannot be changed. So the ordinary user is stuck with German, despite
he NEEDS a different language. Based on the OS, the installer installs GERMAN
menues, which makes a program unusable because its menues cannot be read.
.
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Happy Oyster
This is an excellent example of persons who do not understand even the very
simple fact, that a person in the geographical location "Germany" might not be
able to read German.
.
--
Die volle H�rte: http://www.kindersprechstunde.at
***************************************************************
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http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=5710
Happy Oyster
<dwho...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:38:17 -0500, Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 07:26:05 -0800 (PST), RavanH wrote:
>>> Happy (?) Oyster, don't you feel silly now that after yelling at
>>> Opera, those kind people jumping to help you here on this forum and
>>> Germans in general, the problem is down to your own doing?
>>
>> I really don't get why so many people think this way. You don't know who installed his OS, nor
>> whether he was prompted, so how can you assert as a fact that he chose those settings?
>
>The racist jerk stated that suse linux was installed.
The "racist jerk" is the very guy who is responsible for messing up the menue
languages, and not the person who points to that faulty program.
.
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Happy Oyster
wrote:
> The system is configured to use German.
The SYSTEM IN *ITSELF* !!! But NOT the installed programs !!!
*************************************************************
> If you want English, change the configuration.
NO !!! Definitely NOT!
**********************
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>As far as opera (or any
>other application) is concerned, he really did chose those settings
>himself, regardless of whether he intended to do so or not.
NO !!! An operation system is a TOTALLY different world!
--
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***************************************************************
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Bob Goddard
[...]
>>This is stuff for /dev/null, this person wants no help, he just wants to
>>yell at opera, cause his douchy live is so fuckin boring and he has
>>nothing else to do.
>
> This is an excellent example of persons who do not understand even the
> very simple fact, that a person in the geographical location "Germany"
> might not be able to read German.
And somebody in Britain may not be able to read English.
Plonk!
ceed
<happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
> The whole matter is much more complicated and suppressing than you
> realize.
> As for my technical skills: sysadmin and programmer.
> Did you ever install a program for a class of translators, which handles
> more
> than a dozen languages SIMULTANEOUSLY? Great fun, I can tell you...
More people would listen to your arguments (but not necessarily agree) if
dropped the nazi references and didn't seem so angry.
--
//ceed
Happy Oyster
The racist's view is clear: All in Britain are able to read English and all in
Germany can read German.
Amazing.
Happy Oyster
I am EXTREMELY angry because things like these are attacks against my privacy,
against me as a person, and against my rights to decide MYSELF on which
language, etc to use.
Jernej Simončič
> Instead of fixing the configuration of his system, he shouts that
> opera "MUST NOT FOLLOW STANDARD PROCEDURES FOR LINUX PROGRAMS".
I think you actually mean POSIX, not Linux. :)
--
begin .sig
< Jernej Simončič ><>◊<>< jernej|s-ng at eternallybored.org >
end
Jens Schuessler
Forums are lame, there are have moderators who bann people and delete
postings. I want to decide by my own killfile whats worth reading ;-)
Steinar Bang
> That's an interesting distinction. I am getting this group from my
> long time Usenet News provider, so what is this then? :)
I'm talking directly to news.opera.com http://www.opera.com/support/community/
David W. Hodgins
Opera is running an nntp (aka usenet) server. Doesn't matter
whether you read/post the articles directly on news.opera.com,
or another usenet provider that carries the group. It's all
still usenet.
Steinar Bang
> Opera is running an nntp (aka usenet) server. Doesn't matter whether
> you read/post the articles directly on news.opera.com, or another
> usenet provider that carries the group. It's all still usenet.
Well, gmane allows nntp access to mailing lists, but is decidedly not
USENET.
Jens Schuessler
Well, gmane is a Mail2News-Gateway, different thing.
But opera.linux and all other newsgroups in the opera.* hierarchy are
on a real newsserver in usenet.
Look at the headers ;-)
X-Complaints-To: use...@opera.com
Daniel Pfeiffer
im Betreff):
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:17:49 -0600, ceed <cdposte...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> If your language is English the English (US) only
>> would be a safe bet.
> I want ENGLISH exclusively. German is not a language for computers.
Warum denn das nicht? Klappt doch seit vielen Jahren prima, sogar in Deiner
Signatur.
>>> Do stop that geo-shit!
>> I am not sure what you mean by that. Most programs have language settings,
>> and for most people that is a good thing. For some reason your locale
>> settings got messed up when you installed/upgraded. Yelling at Germans and
>> their language won't fix it for you.
> I am not yelling at Germans. The point is that "people" press upon us geographic
> settings. Like: if I surf in the net I am bombarded with sex advertisement OF
> THE REGION MY IP ISDLOSES. The swine take the IP and set the answers to my
> browser with FILTERED INFORMATION. That is highest level fraud. And in the case
> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
Du Armer, sogar wenn Du in Österreich die Straße lang gehst, zwingen sie Dir
Deutsche Schilder auf, wo sie doch genausogut Russisch, Esperanto oder die
kommende Weltsprache Chinesisch hätten wählen können. Aber bei Leuten mit
Deinem aggressiven Asi-Niveau machen sie sich da ja wohl keinen Kopp drum.
> Have you ever read Hebrew, Arabic, Thai or other hierogryphical languages? Try
> it! Install a programm if you are in a different gerographical area and see how
> these Nazi swine mess up you computer by smearing hieroglyphs onto the screen.
> Or try is with something simpler, like Finnish, Norvegian, or French. And Thais
> and Arabs will be very happy to see German dreck on their screens.
Ich hatte mal 'ne japanische Freundin, das war ganz lustig wenn ich ihr am
Rechner helfen wollte. Mit nur 50 Zeichen Katakana und etwas phonetischer
Phantasie kann man vieles ganz gut lesen :-)
coralament / best Grötens / liebe Grüße / best regards / elkorajn salutojn
Daniel Pfeiffer
--
lerne / learn / apprends / lär dig / ucz się Esperanto:
http://lernu.net / http://ikurso.net
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Am 05.01.2010 12:09 schrieb blutiges Nazi Schwein (mit Absender absurderweise
>im Betreff):
>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:17:49 -0600, ceed <cdposte...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> If your language is English the English (US) only
>>> would be a safe bet.
>
>> I want ENGLISH exclusively. German is not a language for computers.
>
>Warum denn das nicht? Klappt doch seit vielen Jahren prima, sogar in Deiner
>Signatur.
>
>>>> Do stop that geo-shit!
>>> I am not sure what you mean by that. Most programs have language settings,
>>> and for most people that is a good thing. For some reason your locale
>>> settings got messed up when you installed/upgraded. Yelling at Germans and
>>> their language won't fix it for you.
>
>> I am not yelling at Germans. The point is that "people" press upon us geographic
>> settings. Like: if I surf in the net I am bombarded with sex advertisement OF
>> THE REGION MY IP ISDLOSES. The swine take the IP and set the answers to my
>> browser with FILTERED INFORMATION. That is highest level fraud. And in the case
>> of the language I WAN TO USE ENGLISH, but the idiot installer installs German
>> because of some things where he must not stick his nose into.
>
>Du Armer, sogar wenn Du in �sterreich die Stra�e lang gehst, zwingen sie Dir
>Deutsche Schilder auf, wo sie doch genausogut Russisch, Esperanto oder die
>kommende Weltsprache Chinesisch h�tten w�hlen k�nnen. Aber bei Leuten mit
>Deinem aggressiven Asi-Niveau machen sie sich da ja wohl keinen Kopp drum.
>
>> Have you ever read Hebrew, Arabic, Thai or other hierogryphical languages? Try
>> it! Install a programm if you are in a different gerographical area and see how
>> these Nazi swine mess up you computer by smearing hieroglyphs onto the screen.
>> Or try is with something simpler, like Finnish, Norvegian, or French. And Thais
>> and Arabs will be very happy to see German dreck on their screens.
>
>Ich hatte mal 'ne japanische Freundin, das war ganz lustig wenn ich ihr am
>Rechner helfen wollte. Mit nur 50 Zeichen Katakana und etwas phonetischer
>Phantasie kann man vieles ganz gut lesen :-)
>
>coralament / best Gr�tens / liebe Gr��e / best regards / elkorajn salutojn
>Daniel Pfeiffer
That is nonsense.
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:02:05 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen <ei...@opera.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The system is configured to use German.
>
> The SYSTEM IN *ITSELF* !!! But NOT the installed programs !!!
> *************************************************************
The programs are installed on the system and thus becomes part of the
system. Any distinction between "the system" and "applications on the
system" are quite artificial (or at least extremely context-dependent).
Or in other words: which applications do you want in the german language
and which in english? Do you consider "ls", "date", and "cat" to be
part of the "system" and thus they should display their messages in
german?
>> If you want English, change the configuration.
>
> NO !!! Definitely NOT!
> **********************
If you insist on having your system configured to display messages in
the german language, you will get little sympathy when you complain that
the messages are displayed in the german language.
Just to be clear: The configuration we are talking about is the system
setting that indicates which language the user wants application
messages to be displayed in.
Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:06:41 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen <ei...@opera.com>
> wrote:
>
>>As far as opera (or any
>>other application) is concerned, he really did chose those settings
>>himself, regardless of whether he intended to do so or not.
>
> NO !!! An operation system is a TOTALLY different world!
So you are saying that you believe it is a common use case among
ordinary users to want to have system utilities in one language and user
applications in a different language? I'm afraid you'll get very little
sympathy for that point of view.
eirik
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:34:49 +0900, Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:59:40 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:41:07 -0500, Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> An installer MUST ASK which language and with character sets to use.
>>>
>>> The installer in this case is the suse installer, not opera.
>>> You've configured your system to use German. Opera didn't
>>> do that, you did. If you want English, change the
>>> configuration.
>>
>>Bad assumption. He may not have installed Linux, or he may not have been prompted to choose a
>>language when he did.
>>
>>It is fine to say that the OS expects German, but not fine to accuse him of changing that
>>setting unless he tells you he did.
>
> The previous version HAD English menues. That was changed by the installer AND
> the parameter in the Opera setup said that the menues were in English, but they
> were NOT. So, checking of the parameters did not work. ONLY if - despite the
> lying parameter - one checks the DEEPER structures,l one finds that the ACTUAL
> parameter is set to s strange path, which leads to a GERMAN menue language. To
> change that, one has to have the knowledge of where to find the English menue in
> the directroy paths. The ordinary user does not have that knowledge, so he is
> stuck with the wrong language and with a programm which lies to him about the
> set parameters. Very fine for people whose main joy is to be the Great BOFH of
> the Company.
Ok, so there may be multiple issues you are complaining about:
- Opera by default displays messages in the system-configured language.
- On upgrade, opera changes the language to the system-configured
language, regardless of previous setting.
- When setting the UI language in opera to english, the UI uses german
language.
The first issue is obviously (to most people) the correct behaviour, and
ranting about it will do you no good. If you want that changed, you
will have to convince the UI guideline designers of the world that they
are wrong. It is exceedingly unlikely that you will be able to convince
major application developers to blatantly ignore basic UI guidelines
that are common amongst all major systems.
The third issue is obviously a bug (if I have understood you correctly).
If you would help us figure out how that happened, we would be very
happy to fix it. (Again, ranting about it will do you very little good.
Reporting the problem properly will probably get it fixed.)
The second issue is a bit more complicated. If the old language setting
really was "give me english, please", then it is a bug, and as for issue
3 we would love to fix it. But we would probably need your help to
figure out how it could happen.
However, if the old setting was "give me the default language, please",
then changing to german was probably correct behaviour, just like issue
1. I don't know enough about desktop opera to be able to tell if this
is likely to have happened, though.
However, here is some advice:
- Don't mix issue 1 up into the discussion of the other two issues.
Most people will focus on issue 1 and tell you that you're wrong.
Thus you get no support for issues 2 and 3 which may well be something
that we would fix.
- When something is obviously a bug (as in issue 3: settings don't match
behaviour), try to avoid sounding as if you think the programmer did
it on purpose. Apart from alienating those who could help you, it
also clouds the issue itself.
eirik
richard lucassen
Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
> >coralament / best Grötens / liebe Grüße / best regards / elkorajn
> >salutojn Daniel Pfeiffer
>
> That is nonsense.
Be restrictive in what you send. Be tolerant in what you receive.
Usenet law #1
R.
--
___________________________________________________________________
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak
aloud and remove all doubt.
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Richard Lucassen, Utrecht |
| Public key and email address: |
| http://www.lucassen.org/mail-pubkey.html |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Happy Oyster
wrote:
Yo do not understgand even the most sim0ple things.
DO READ AGAIN!
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
That is hogwash.
Naruki Bigglesworth
> I'll grant you that it is possible that you did not choose that setting
> yourself. Maybe your sysadmin did, maybe the installer automatically
> chose it. But that doesn't really matter.
It matters for exactly one reason that I can think of: if you wish to berate someone for
choosing a setting they did not choose. That would piss them off for no reason and make you
look like a jerk.
It would be even worse if people kept mis-berating him, over and over and over. Like in this
thread. :-)
> I tend to feel the same way about many settings in Windows. I suspect
> that most settings are in fact well defined. Mostly, when I've made the
> effort to investigate, I've found that MS's documentation is mostly
> quite good. I think the problem is that most developers do as most
> users: They look at how the settings are described in the MS UI and try
> to guess what it means instead of reading the documentation. (Mind you,
> when I say that MS's documentation is usually quite good, I mean the
> documentation for developers, not for end users...)
>
> eirik
As far as the Windows specs, whatever they may be with regard to developers, what the user sees
is not very clear. Even if every developer follows specs, the user will still be confused
because the GUI doesn't cover the use cases properly.
From what I've seen in the other threads, it seems like Linux is a lot better at separating the
functionality than Windows.
I think your idea (what language should program communicate to user in) is good, though as it
is so simple I suspect it has flaws. But as a general rule it is probably fine.
I need a Japanese keyboard and the ability to display Japanese, but want all configurable
elements to be in English. Unicode allows the multi-lingual display, independent keyboard
settings handle the keyboard, but choosing English is a PITA on Windows.
Then, for backwards compatibility, how do you handle non-Unicode programs? Windows has a tab
just for that, which seems to make sense, but...
Naruki Bigglesworth
> Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com> writes:
>> It is fine to say that the OS expects German, but not fine to accuse him of changing that
>> setting unless he tells you he did.
>
> That is a somewhat fine hair to split, but just to avoid that problem
> let us rephrase it:
>
> The system is configured to use German. If you want English, change
> the configuration.
>
> Whether it was the user himself, the sysadmin or just the default
> settings of the OS installation doesn't really matter. From the point
> of view of any application running on that system, it looks as if the
> user himself chose that language.
>
> eirik
Semantics is a fine business, but don't let that fool you into thinking it is unimportant. Any
programmer who has forgotten a semi-colon should know better. :-)
The difference is between being accurate (as your restatement is) and being inaccurate and
insulting (as most of the people here have been).
Insulting someone _unfairly_ makes it really hard to have a productive discussion.
Happy Oyster
>On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:27:18 +0100
>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> wrote:
>
>> >coralament / best Gr�tens / liebe Gr��e / best regards / elkorajn
>> >salutojn Daniel Pfeiffer
>>
>> That is nonsense.
>
>Be restrictive in what you send. Be tolerant in what you receive.
>
>Usenet law #1
There is no usenet law.
Further: The intolerance is committed by those who mess up programs by
constructing their behaviour illogical.
Naruki Bigglesworth
> I appreciate that you are just trying to calm people down, but
> in this case, this idiot should stick to internet explorer, and
> all the malware that goes with it.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
Actually, I don't give a flip for calming people down. I love a good flamewar.
I care about people being accurate. Accusing him repeatedly of something you don't know he did
is not accurate.
I am impressed at how many people tried to help him despite his incredibly annoying attitude,
and I don't begrudge anyone for being pissed at him. But I want them to attack his actual
faults, not imagined ones.
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 02:52:38 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:
That is an important point: people INVENT something, claim that you said it, and
then attack you because of that.
Politeness were a fine thing --- if it would work. But one can be as polite as
possible, even beyond self-denial, it will lead you nowhere.
One reason is that people DO NOT WANT to accept facts, so they either attack you
ad hominem, or they claim that your arguments are not based on facts, but are
insults.
We have much experience with these things. Some of us maintain web-sites about
quackery and charlatanism. I started mine in 1996. That is a long time, and
there were MANY fights with MANY esotters and other mentaly underpowered. It is
the very same ALL THE TIME.
Most programmers have no idea, what they are doing. The know how to handle a
compiler - or whatever. But they absolutely clueless about what they produce.
Back in 1992 I wanted to write a book and went to an office of the company which
sold the text editor AMI. Well, they made so�me things here, and some thigns
there. But their program was absolutely not suitable for WORKING with it to do
some REAL work. The programmers knew how to program, but concerning text editing
they were clueless.
To try to explain the work of a typist to them is - in vain. They to not even
understand the most simple basics of text editing.
The same situation here, now. The use of language is very important, but these
guys to not want to understand.
The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
each must use a different language.
Another simple fact: that the language of the installer is NOT the language the
installed program later will use.
Think of it: people, who are so bloody stupid, that they do not understand that
using a wildly mixed "title" character string of a web-page as a filename will
lead to SEVERE problems with the file system. Such a character string can
contain the strangest printable characters, some of which are used to build
commands, like <>;:�!"�$%&/()=?`+*~- and so on. And, yes, it is Opera, where
this insanity is comitted. And, yes, the guys at Opera began that craze with
Opera 3.21, or even earlier. One of the biggest idocies ever in the whole
history of EDP, to mess up the file system BY WILL, and they are proud of it.
There is no need to be polite to such people. Politeness will lead you nowhere.
Think of all the polite letters and emails of all the folk around the globe, who
complained about the mistakes in Opera. All of them were turned down with
arrogance and hogwash. If politeness would help, then the messing up of the file
system never would have been implemented. If politenes would help, then the
complaints would have been followed and the title of a web-page would NOT be
used as filename.
IF. But it isn't.
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
[...]
> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
> each must use a different language.
If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
programs on their computer to use the same language.
Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
than the small minority.
> Another simple fact: that the language of the installer is NOT the language the
> installed program later will use.
Again, if you really want the installer of an application and the
application itself to use different languages then you are in an
extremely small minority.
And even if we were to accept that each program should use a different
language, how would each program know what language it should use? You
may want opera's installer to display in amharic, opera itself in
telugu, ls in mongolian and date in zulu. But how would each of those
programs know that?
eirik
Jens Schuessler
>
> Insulting someone _unfairly_ makes it really hard to have a productive discussion.
And what part of the fuckin title "Bloody Nazi-Swine !!!!!!!!!" of this thread
is *not* insulting?
This is a rhetorical question.
*PLONK*
Jernej Simončič
> I need a Japanese keyboard and the ability to display Japanese, but want all configurable
> elements to be in English. Unicode allows the multi-lingual display, independent keyboard
> settings handle the keyboard, but choosing English is a PITA on Windows.
It isn't, it's just that most users don't know where the settings are
(they're all in Control Panel's Regional and Language Options applet, and
while that was made somewhat clearer in Windows 7, it's still somewhat of a
mess).
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
>
>[...]
>> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
>> each must use a different language.
>
>If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
>small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
>programs on their computer to use the same language.
>
>Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
>than the small minority.
"Majority"... That is Nazi-bullshit.
Fact is, that the programmers CAN ask. But they don't ask. Instead of asking,
they take the parameters of the system.
Each user is A SINGLE PERSON.
*****************************
If Opera is too damned stupid to program even a simple question, then they
should close their company.
Bob Goddard
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:04:49 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> <ei...@opera.com> wrote:
>
>>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a
>>> computer and each must use a different language.
>>
>>If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
>>small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
>>programs on their computer to use the same language.
>>
>>Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
>>than the small minority.
>
> "Majority"... That is Nazi-bullshit.
>
> Fact is, that the programmers CAN ask. But they don't ask. Instead of
> asking, they take the parameters of the system.
>
>
> Each user is A SINGLE PERSON.
> *****************************
>
> If Opera is too damned stupid to program even a simple question, then they
> should close their company.
>
> .
Congratulations, you have now reached the status of head fuckwit.
Naruki Bigglesworth
> on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:55:05 +0900, Naruki Bigglesworth wrote:
>
>> I need a Japanese keyboard and the ability to display Japanese, but want all configurable
>> elements to be in English. Unicode allows the multi-lingual display, independent keyboard
>> settings handle the keyboard, but choosing English is a PITA on Windows.
>
> It isn't, it's just that most users don't know where the settings are
> (they're all in Control Panel's Regional and Language Options applet, and
> while that was made somewhat clearer in Windows 7, it's still somewhat of a
> mess).
It is. I know where the settings are, but they aren't clear and the ones I need to change
temporarily require rebooting. That is classic PITA to me.
If the settings were clearly defined and the important ones did not require reboot, I'd say
it's a lot better than Linux. But it isn't.
Naruki Bigglesworth
Look, it's your choice to be upset. I certainly don't blame anyone for reacting negatively to
the OP. But you won't look stupid if you are upset for real reasons rather than bullshit
reasons.
Naruki Bigglesworth
> Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
>> each must use a different language.
>
> If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
> small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
> programs on their computer to use the same language.
>
> Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
> than the small minority.
>
>> Another simple fact: that the language of the installer is NOT the language the
>> installed program later will use.
>
> Again, if you really want the installer of an application and the
> application itself to use different languages then you are in an
> extremely small minority.
That situation is quite common in my case, and I'm sure I'm not the only foreigner in Japan.
The person doing the installation would often be the system engineer, who speaks Japanese. The
person using the application would in some small but reasonable amount of cases would be the
foreigner.
I think making it an option (whether command line or prompt in the installer UI) is always a
great thing.
I certainly agree with the idea that the program should look at the OS settings. 99% of the
time that will be the right thing to do.
But it should not dictate that the end user (or the installer) must use that and allow no
deviation. Absolutes like that are not good.
I've run into a few programs that let you install in languages other than the OS setting. It's
not that hard to set up for experienced I18N developers. It is just that finding these
developers and convincing them to make their programs more flexible is really difficult.
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:04:49 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen wrote:
>
>> Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
>>> each must use a different language.
>>
>> If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
>> small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
>> programs on their computer to use the same language.
>>
>> Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
>> than the small minority.
>>
>>> Another simple fact: that the language of the installer is NOT the language the
>>> installed program later will use.
>>
>> Again, if you really want the installer of an application and the
>> application itself to use different languages then you are in an
>> extremely small minority.
>
> That situation is quite common in my case, and I'm sure I'm not the only foreigner in Japan.
> The person doing the installation would often be the system engineer, who speaks Japanese. The
> person using the application would in some small but reasonable amount of cases would be the
> foreigner.
I agree that this is a "greater than 0" minority, but I still think it
is a very small minority:
- Users who have their applications installed by a sysadmin that doesn't
understand the user's language.
versus
- Users who have their applications installed by a sysadmin that does
understand the user's language.
- Users who install their own applications.
Of course, the correct solution to this would be to have the sysadmin
account have independent locale settings than the user's account. I
don't know how this works on windows, but on typical unix systems, this
is trivial (Just set the LANG variable in the log-in scripts.)
So on linux, this is a solved problem.
> I think making it an option (whether command line or prompt in the installer UI) is always a
> great thing.
This is true, and what's more, it should really be part of the OS
programming guidelines.
Again, on linux this is a solved problem: You just set the LANG variable
before invoking the installer.
(In fact, this is the correct way to deal with Happy Oyster's problem:
If he needs different locale settings in different applications, he
should make wrapper scripts that set the locale before invoking the real
application. It is the right way of doing it, it works for all
correctly implemented programs, and it works the same way for all
programs.)
> I certainly agree with the idea that the program should look at the OS settings. 99% of the
> time that will be the right thing to do.
>
> But it should not dictate that the end user (or the installer) must use that and allow no
> deviation. Absolutes like that are not good.
I also entirely agree with this. And again, how to do this should be
part of the OS programming guidelines. (And again, in linux you'd just
set the environment variables before invoking the program. No need to
make complicated, application-specific hacks for this.)
> I've run into a few programs that let you install in languages other than the OS setting. It's
> not that hard to set up for experienced I18N developers. It is just that finding these
> developers and convincing them to make their programs more flexible is
> really difficult.
The problem isn't making it possible (in Opera, as has been pointed out,
it is a preference setting.) The problem is to design a UI for doing
this that works well. (And as I say, in linux there is a standard way
of doing this that works for all (sane) applications: Just set the
environment variables differently when invoking that program. In a
wrapper script, if always needed.)
eirik
Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:04:49 +0100, Eirik Byrkjeflot Anonsen <ei...@opera.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Happy Oyster <happy....@ariplex.com> writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>> The most simple thing of all: that there are SEVERAL programs on a computer and
>>> each must use a different language.
>>
>>If that is how you want your system to work then you are in an extremely
>>small minority. You are insanely outnumbered by the people who want all
>>programs on their computer to use the same language.
>>
>>Simple fact: Software designers will cater to the large majority rather
>>than the small minority.
>
> "Majority"... That is Nazi-bullshit.
>
> Fact is, that the programmers CAN ask. But they don't ask. Instead of asking,
> they take the parameters of the system.
Every single UI guideline I've seen says: "Ask as few questions as
possible. If there is a reasonable default, use it."
In this case, however, we DO ask this question. In the way the OS
programming guidelines says the question should be asked: by looking at
the system settings. Since this is a question that every single program
needs to have answered, the OS designers have set things up so that you
only need to answer the question once.
Would you really be happy if you had to answer all these questions just
in order to install your system:
What language should ls display messages in?
What language should cat display messages in?
What language should less display messages in?
What language should more display messages in?
What language should date display messages in?
What language should echo display messages in?
What language should cp display messages in?
What language should mv display messages in?
What language should grep display messages in?
What language should zgrep display messages in?
etc.
I assure you that most users are quite happy to be asked only a single
question:
What language should applications display messages in?
> Each user is A SINGLE PERSON.
> *****************************
If you need your software tailor-made for yourself, you will have to be
willing to pay for it. It's going to be very expensive, though.
> If Opera is too damned stupid to program even a simple question, then they
> should close their company.
Asking questions is easy. But asking lots of questions is a sure way of
making an unusable program. Asking the correct questions is an unsolved
problem in UI design. But in this case, it is well-defined how this
question should be asked. If you want that changed, you'll have to
convince your favorite OS to change its programming guidelines.
eirik
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Naruki Bigglesworth <Nar...@nothankyou.com> writes:
That is hogwash. There is no need for different handling. One of the easiest to
implement things on earth is to ASK THE USER! The installer may SUGGEST the
settings of languages. If the user presses OKAY, then they are used. Or the ones
are used which the user takes.
By the way: Isn't it the glorious company Opera which asks the user to asccept
the TOS?
Why not a question concernbing the settings? Too stupid? Too lazy? Both?
>The problem isn't making it possible (in Opera, as has been pointed out,
>it is a preference setting.) The problem is to design a UI for doing
>this that works well.
That is hogwash. If you have no idea how to do it, then look at other programs.
Or do you want to admit, that the guys at Opera are even too stupid for that?
The more you babble, the more the world can see, how incompetent the programmers
at Opera really are.
Damyan Yordanov
[… nonsense …]
You are a stupid kid with plenty of free time, aren't you? (You don't really have to answer that question).
Damyan
--
Using Debian Testing (Squeeze), Kernel 2.6.22-3-686, Postfix 2.6.5-3, Dovecot 1:1.2.9-1, Cone 0.79-2, Tin 1:1.9.5
Happy Oyster
wrote:
You never installed VMware? Programs like this demonstrate that it is possible
to ask questions.
>I assure you that most users are quite happy to be asked only a single
>question:
>
>What language should applications display messages in?
Users are stupid. Yes, that is *THE* BOFH attitude.
>> Each user is A SINGLE PERSON.
>> *****************************
>
>If you need your software tailor-made for yourself, you will have to be
>willing to pay for it. It's going to be very expensive, though.
That is hogwash.
>> If Opera is too damned stupid to program even a simple question, then they
>> should close their company.
>
>Asking questions is easy. But asking lots of questions is a sure way of
>making an unusable program. Asking the correct questions is an unsolved
>problem in UI design. But in this case, it is well-defined how this
>question should be asked. If you want that changed, you'll have to
>convince your favorite OS to change its programming guidelines.
That is hogwash. hundreds of thousands of programmers on the globe do know well
how to program these things. But, well, a company, which is so damned stupid,
that id spils the file system BY WILL, what can one expect from them else but
higwash?
You read the arguments from 2 ways now, from a very polite one (Naruki), and
from an one experienced in dealing with blokes like Opera.
As all can see: You just turn and twist to keep people calm, and to go on the
crap Opera commits.
It is exactly as I wrote in my very first postings: YOU DON NOT WANT to realize
facts.
Folks, who are so bloody stupid to spoil a file system by will, DO KNOW, what
they do. And they are proud of it. They use their broad arse to press their will
onto hundreds of millions of users. SOME can switch to an other program, but
many users cannot, because they have to take what is installed in their
companies.
A software company has a responsibility for what it does.
*********************************************************
Happy Oyster
wrote:
>Happy Oyster writes:
>[� nonsense �]
>
>You are a stupid kid with plenty of free time, aren't you? (You don't really have to answer that question).
>
> Damyan
You are so very clever. Why don't you deal with the FACTS!?
Jens Schuessler
> The more you babble, the more the world can see, how incompetent the programmers
> at Opera really are.
Der einzige der hier Tag fï¿œr Tag seine Inkmpetenz zur Schau trï¿œgt bist
du Schmock.