Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

[Munatones]

With the tragedy of Fran Crippen's death, the issue of adding a rule
about the maximum allowable water temperature has been raised. We
have a very specific water temperature number that we recommended
earlier this year, but what does the Global Open Water Swimming
Community think this number should be?

Should the maximum allowable water temperature be different for elite
swimmers and age-group swimmers and adult fitness swimmers?

Is water temperature the only parameter that should be considered?
What about air temperature, humidity and the lack of cloud cover?
What about the distance of the race?

Finally, are there any races around the world where there is a maximum
allowable water temperature? We asked this question to the U.S.
Masters Swimming community earlier this year, but there are been very
few responses.

Thank you very much for your input, advice and information.

[Keith Bell]

Stephen,

We are angered and appalled by the conditions in which the race was
conducted that lead to Fran Crippen's death and the hospitalization of
three other swimmers.

We do not run any races in the summer here because the water is too
hot. It's too dangerous, let alone not conducive to optimal
performance.

We would never have even considered running or sanctioning a 10,000 in
a body of water that had a historic water temperature that hot.

We would like to see the maximum water temperature for a 10k or longer
to be set at 78 degrees or even cooler.

We also do not allow contact or drafting at all in our races. I have
been greatly concerned all along with Fina's practice of feeding
stations where contact is permitted. Competitively, it is wise to cut
opponents off, not allowing them to get to their drinks. This is
extremely dangerous and, I have believed all along, could lead to
swimmers' deaths in warm, let alone hot, water.

I expressed great concern about the safety of swimmers in the 2008
Olympics in that 86 degree course and with rules that interfere with
hydration.

This tragedy should never have happened. We should never let this
happen again.

Keith

Dr. Keith Bell, President
American Swimming Association
in...@americanswimmingassociation.com
www.americanswimmingassociation.com
(512) 327-2260

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[Steven Munatones]

Thank you very much for your suggestions, Keith.

Do you have any flexibility on the 78°F water (26°C)? For example, 78°/26°
water on a bright sunny day with no wind and high humidity presents one set
of conditions for the athletes. 78°/26° water on a cloudy day with high
winds presents another set of conditions. Or do you believe this should be
a hard and fast rule? We would be interested in your opinion as we try to
come to grips with this situation and prevent it from happening again.

With an upper limit of 78°/26° degrees, there would be many marathon races
around the world that would be cancelled, from races in southern Florida and
the Caribbean Sea to Eastern European races. I wonder what these race
directors think of this proposal. Of course, the dates of races could
change to accommodate these new standards. That is, instead of holding
races in the summer months, the races can be held in the spring or fall
months.

Allow me to clarify a few things.

Impeding a swimmer - which includes cutting a swimmer off - in FINA and USA
Swimming races are strictly dealt with. Warnings, yellow cards and
disqualifications are given - and given quite frequently (depending on the
referee's interpretation, of course). For example, at some of the world
championship races with fields of about 40 athletes as many as 7 yellow
cards were given. That is a fairly high percentage.

I also do not believe that the Olympic 10K Marathon Swim course in Beijing
was 86°F (30°C). I believe it was around 83°F (28.3°C), although Shelley
Taylor-Smith or Sid Cassidy will remember the actual number. Still very
high, but there was rain and a bit of cooling off during the second week of
the Olympics that spared the athletes. It was interesting to note that many
of the swimmers who performed well in Beijing had very specifically trained
for the hot and humid conditions. Some conditions had even consulted with
their government's military to determine the best way to acclimate and
perform under those conditions.

[Karen Reeder]

Steve,

I don't think that wind and cloud/sun conditions can be included in a rule.
These aren't very predictable and can change. What if it is cloudy at the
start and then it clears up before the race finishes?

Air temperature could be used, though, in this equation because that can be
predicted with more accuracy. I think there was a race in Australia in a
lake that was pretty warm because it came through a power plant, but the air
temp was cooler, maybe 60 degrees? Shelley might now those temps better.
Also, if a swim was planned and the temp was close to the limit, the
organizer could move it to early in the morning before air temperature got
too high.

Key West is one swim here in the US that has very warm water temperatures.
I think it was in the low 80's the year I participated. Not very
comfortable but it was an escort swim and I could get water if needed it at
any time. That is another variable. Are there feed stations or escort
craft?

Karen Reeder

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Munatones" <st...@pan-pacific-partners.com>
To: <openwater-r...@googlegroups.com>

Cc: "'Sandy Neilson-Bell'" <sne...@austin.rr.com>; "'Shelley Taylor-Smith'"
<Cham...@ChampionMindset.com.au>; "'sid cassidy'"
<sid.c...@saintandrewsschool.net>; "'Sataline, Suzanne'"
<Suzanne....@wsj.com>; "'Mark Warkentin'" <markdwa...@gmail.com>;
<vo...@usc.edu>; "'Rick Walker'" <rwa...@athletics.siu.edu>; "'Karen
Reeder'" <dksr...@skybeam.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

[Keith Bell]

Steven,

I believe that a maximum of 78 or lower is best for high level
national and international competitions no matter the air temperature,
sun, or humidity. I do think we should set races at the time of year
that predicts acceptable water temperatures for that body of water.
Certainly, schedule-wise, we can have more swimmers for our events
here in the summer, but we're unwilling to do that because the water
is too hot.

Okay, I was under the impression that impeding a swimmer has not been
strictly dealt with at feeding stations. I stand corrected, though I
still prefer no drafting.

And, I think you are correct and I was probably wrong about the
temperature at the 2008 Olympics. I do think even 83 is way too warm
for a 10k, especially at that level of competition. We should be
shooting not only for safety, but for conditions conducive to optimal
performance.

Keith

Dr. Keith Bell, President
American Swimming Association
in...@americanswimmingassociation.com
www.americanswimmingassociation.com
(512) 327-2260

[Collins Tampa Bay]

Here in Florida, we wrestle w/ this question every year.   I believe there should be an upper limit of 84F for open water swims that are 5k and over.  That's one of the reasons we swim the 24 Mile Tampa Bay Marathon Swim ( www.DistanceMatters.com ) in April so the water temp will be about 75F.  

Anything 85F and above is OK for a 1 mile swim, but those temperatures have been proven to be unsafe for the swimmers if they are trying to sustain a high effort for distances of 3+ miles.

As far as variables go, it's going to be hard to enforce a "too hot" rule.  What if the race is mostly in 82F, but there's a shallow, sandy flats area (like Key West) where temps are near 90F?    Do you factor in feed stations, race support, cloudiness, air temps, wind, etc...  Will swim race directors bend the rules like they do at triathlons where they miraculously find a spot on the course that registers 78F so everyone can wear their wetsuits?  Imagine the pressure from sponsors/competitors/spectators to hold an event at a venue that is on one degree warmer than the upper limit.

It all comes down to race directors:  try to schedule your event when the temps are going to be around 72F.  Most years, everyone will be happy w/ the temp and will swim without the temperature being a factor.  Nobody should ever stage an event during the summer in Florida, UAE or Beijing.  The official in Dubai obviously didn't have a clue about the hazards of holding his World Cup event... that is blatantly apparent in his approach to the event and his statements made after the loss of Fran Crippen.

Steve, you probably recall our phone conversation just prior to the Olympics when I expressed concerns about the overheated water for the 10k.  I fully expected there would be a problem, but they dodged that bullet until last weekend when our top open water swimmer passed.  

Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida

--

[Ignacio Martinez Sela]

It is extremely difficult to establish sensible and constructive words after the devastating death of a swimmer in competition. We all hurt the death of Fran and even despite this, these hard news must to serve to try a better future for our sport. My condolences to all who you feel a little orphans of our friend, despite not having known him.

Navia (Spain) is a place where the cold is characteristic of our waters in the face of OWS. We can only hold competitions in July and August when the reliable range of temperatures is 18-22 ° C.The rest of the year, although there are exceptions, the water is not compatible with OWS races. In 2006, when we organized the LEN Cup Final, measuring water temperature previous days, presaged the cancellation due water temperature were very close & under 16°C. It was neccesary modify the course to less cold water and still became very selective race with many "DNF" in results. But is curious the continuity for 54 years and numerous participant race, as our Descent of the River. Would be difficult keep alive a race if the cold is incompatible with the sport in safety conditions.

I think it is logical to raise a debate on the maximum temperature. But in turn I am against the strict rules. I am not a doctor or scientist.I think it is such people who must set a temperature range compatible with the human body's ability extreme effort . Everything else is no more than opinion.

Yes I firmly believe has set the maximun allowable temperature. However, a number fixed without more, is little argued. I try to go a little further. In addition to respect the preset temperatures rank what else we can do to improve race directors?

In races over 10 kms long. FINA  force to provide a boat /kayak for each swimmer. However, in the 10-kms races is forbidden the use of boats. Maybe this rule should be more elastic in terms of what the local organization can offer, prior experience recommends and specific climatic conditions of day of competition needs. Here, in the past we tested new distances (12 kms, 14.5 kms., and I feel tempted to advocate a race of 7.5 kms. But that's another discussion.) and we always offered a kayak. This reduces the race spectacle, but as a safefy point of view is perfect. 

May be in combination of maximum top temperature and volume of safety resources (boats, platforms, floating aids, rescue vehicles, whistles, cellulars on course, etc) offered could be an interesting idea, that performs not to cancel a comptition on unfair circumstances, after taking into consideration the opinion of registered swimmers.

Receive a warm greeting to all OWS peoples in these sad days.

Ignacio Martinez Sela

Navia OWS competitions

[Steven Munatones]

Water temperatures expected in London based on the last 8 years of data are
approximately 68-69 degrees F (20-21 degrees C). Of course, if the air and
water temperature get above that, then there is a problem with algae (i.e.,
water quality). In that case, the Olympic 10K in London will be conducted
in another location.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Walker [mailto:rwa...@athletics.siu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:54 PM
To: Karen Reeder; Steven Munatones; openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Sandy Neilson-Bell; Shelley Taylor-Smith; sid cassidy; Sataline,
Suzanne; Mark Warkentin; vo...@usc.edu
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

Steve and All,

I am in agreement that this should never have happened. I think at the
present I am more angered at the time it took to notice Fran went missing,
and the apparent lack of safety craft to help the others who have claimed
that they asked for assistance (Christine Jennings). I think before we make
hard and fast rules in reaction to this tragic event, we find out all the
information made available through the investigations and then make an
informed push for the change so desperately needed in regards to maximum
temperatures. If we set a maximum high at 78 degrees, those events that are
carried out in pools would not even meet this criteria. I am not against
anything at this point but I also want to make sure we make sound changes
that has real teeth for enforcement. As it stands right now there is way
too much authority, in this area, placed in the hands of the race director
who's motivation is to run the event. Everything we do from here will be
done with Fran in mind. I certainly don't want to make anything too lenient
but at the same time we do have to consider not getting too extreme that we
cannot find venues who will take on the races and at the same time not
jeopardize the athletes. As a side note, I too am more then concerned about
the up coming Olympic Games venue and the potential to mirror potential
temperatures similarly found at the UAE event. Just some thoughts.

Rick

[Rick Walker]

Steve and All,

I am in agreement that this should never have happened. I think at the present I am more angered at the time it took to notice Fran went missing, and the apparent lack of safety craft to help the others who have claimed that they asked for assistance (Christine Jennings). I think before we make hard and fast rules in reaction to this tragic event, we find out all the information made available through the investigations and then make an informed push for the change so desperately needed in regards to maximum temperatures. If we set a maximum high at 78 degrees, those events that are carried out in pools would not even meet this criteria. I am not against anything at this point but I also want to make sure we make sound changes that has real teeth for enforcement. As it stands right now there is way too much authority, in this area, placed in the hands of the race director who's motivation is to run the event. Everything we do from here will be done with Fran in mind. I certainly don't want to make anything too lenient but at the same time we do have to consider not getting too extreme that we cannot find venues who will take on the races and at the same time not jeopardize the athletes. As a side note, I too am more then concerned about the up coming Olympic Games venue and the potential to mirror potential temperatures similarly found at the UAE event. Just some thoughts.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Reeder [mailto:dksr...@skybeam.com]
Sent: Wed 10/27/2010 3:02 PM
To: Steven Munatones; openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Cc: 'Sandy Neilson-Bell'; 'Shelley Taylor-Smith'; 'sid cassidy'; 'Sataline, Suzanne'; 'Mark Warkentin'; vo...@usc.edu; Rick Walker

[Doug]

HI Steve,

How are things? Very sad to hear about Fran's death. Do they know
the cause yet? Do you think it is from heat, or something else
internal which was just a surprise?

On the temp issue, one race I did in Singapore years ago was really
bad for me, as the water was much too hot. It was also shallow water,
and I guess that made it hotter. I would say that it was over 84-5
degrees, with hot/humid outside conditions. I would think that one
bad thing, particularly for a distance race (over what distance, I am
not sure, maybe more than 3km), that having a cap on in those temps
will not help, as your head would not be able to "breath" or get rid
of the heat. So, that might be something to consider.

B. Regards,
Doug Woodring (PS, I rarely use this email, so best to reply on my
other one)

[Jose Ferreira Pinto]

Dear Steve,
Dear All, great thread!

In Asia most of the competitors deal with dehydration as event are
cluttered within
the hot season. In other parts swimmers cope with hypothermia.

I propose a ratio “water temperature/competition time” and argue on
the
method to assess this temperature on the day of the race.
I end up providing some IT/tech ideas like the use of GPS devices and
RFID.

Building on what Doug just mention I would consider to use of a lycra
caps.
This type of material enables the body to release the heat produced
during
the competition. Has the head is one of the major parts where the
body
releases heat it is expected to reduce the likelihood of having
problems
when the water is too hot. This is actually what I have been doing in
open
water competitions namely, for races over 3K with water temperature
above 28C, i.e., 82.4F.

Consequently, I would consider convenient to define a temperature
interval as
a reference. However, caution should be taken on the methodology to
perform
that specific temperature assessment / measurement or, putting it in
another way,
which source of information shall dictate if a certain temperature is
inappropriate
for the race on the day? The local weather authorities? Local official
weather report
plus a local ad-hoc measurement? Consider also that it is a average
measurement
hence caution on cut-off temperatures...

That said, a combination of water temperature and the expected time in
the water
(related to distance) would not confine the analysis to temperature
only, leaving room
for a more subjective analysis, namely, some common sense and
experience on the
observation of sea conditions. The later shall be a bit difficult to
incorporate in an
econometric model...but testing on-site and within the realm of live
competitions
would be of utmost interest for any student taking a master degree on
sports medicine.

As for that incident reported and based only on the information
provided here technology
may play a role on this. Let me enlighten you on the use of GPS
devices for the exact
purpose of locating swimmers and for emergency uses.
Check out this link: http://nighttrainswimmers.org/NightTrainSwimmers/LIVE_TRACKING.html
Have a look at this one too: http://tinyurl.com/24y7969
And also this one: http://www.findmespot.eu/en/index.php?cid=103
This approach provides an additional dimension to your race as it
bridges a gap between
fans and followers of your group in Facebook providing a live global
platform follow-up for
the event. As for what safety is of concern these devices have an
emergency button too.

Alternatively, an RFID bracelet may be used by athletes and RFID
receptors may be
placed at checkpoints within the race course and at the finish line,
buoys and other
markers set to orient swimmers on the race. The closeness need to get
a validated record
ensures the swimmer passed through that spot hence he is swimming.

There is still a long way to go in terms of reaching more acceptable
risk levels when it comes
to open water swimming events, or lets say closer to “zero risk” if
such thing really exists (!).
But that is all what it is about openwater isn’t it? We all know there
is a bit of “gamble of our lives”
when we decide to enter the water, don’t we? Otherwise, we would
continue with in-door events
and, even so, there is always room for endless safety issues.

To end, I would like to express my sincere condolences to Fran's
family and to all his friends.
May he rest in peace.
Rgds, Jose

[Kate Alexander]

Hi everyone,

Steven � what was the �very specific water temperature number that [you] recommended earlier this year�?

Here in the Cayman Islands, water temps usually run into the mid-80s during the summer (May-Sep). Occasionally temps can run into the upper 80s. Temps are 70+ the rest of the year. So we are acclimatized to warmer water. Also, our pool is an outdoor pool and is often very warm. So most of our training is done in warm water.

So, for our local races, consisting of 99% local swimmers, warm temps are fine. However, we do not hold any races in July and August, our hottest months. It's too hot for the volunteers too.

In our ops manual we have �water temperature too high� as a valid reason for postponing an event, but we have not (yet) stated a temperature � mostly because when we researched this for our safety plan, we couldn�t find ready guidelines. We did not want to state a max temp without a reference to back it up.

And yes, the whole weather picture must be considered, and as a whole, not just the individual elements. Water at 82 degrees in Cayman is much tougher for racing pace when the sun is out, the race is at mid-day and there is little wind and high humidity. The angle of the sun here is also much stronger, so that 85 air temp here feels much hotter than 85 in Michigan. This is where the Race Committee � composed of Chief Referee, Safety Officer, Course Officer, Medical Officer - must make a smart decision on race day that takes many factors into account � is the course not only at a safe temperature, but also are the waves, currents, air temp, boat traffic etc. also amenable? Any one of these factors being off can adversely affect the suitability of the whole course. (E.g., we, as swimmers or race directors, might expect that it would be worth the risk to hold a race if the water temp is quite warm and all other conditions are ideal � but if the water temp is high AND the currents are very strong in the wrong direction, then the risk is compounded.)

I found the cold water perception scales published recently in the Daily News to be very helpful and spot on in my experience � the descriptions for 80 and above are exactly how swimming feels for me here. I would not want to race (or train hard) in water above 82.

And yes, as a race director, I see a big difference between elite, age group, masters and recreational swimmers. I don�t think the temperature limit (or distance or age limit or course time limit) can be the same for all.

We plan to start using a red flag system for our race participants. A small piece of red cloth will be handed out at check-in � the cloth can be tucked into the swim suit and when any participant wants to call for help, they can roll over on their back or go upright and wave their flag, which will make them more visible to the support boats.

Of course the red flag doesn�t address all swimmer predicaments. But we hope it will help for fatigue, cramps, vomiting, dizziness, etc.

I hope that USASwimming and/or FINA will recommend a max temp based on good sports medicine. We need it for our safety guidelines.

Kate

On 10/28/2010 3:05 AM, Jose Ferreira Pinto wrote:

Dear Steve,
Dear All, great thread!

In Asia most of the competitors deal with dehydration as event are
cluttered within
the hot season. In other parts swimmers cope with hypothermia.

I propose a ratio �water temperature/competition time� and argue on
the
method to assess this temperature on the day of the race.
I end up providing some IT/tech ideas like the use of GPS devices and
RFID.

Building on what Doug just mention I would consider to use of a lycra
caps.
This type of material enables the body to release the heat produced
during
the competition. Has the head is one of the major parts where the
body
releases heat it is expected to reduce the likelihood of having
problems
when the water is too hot. This is actually what I have been doing in
open
water competitions namely, for races over 3K with water temperature
above 28C, i.e., 82.4F.

Consequently, I would consider convenient to define a temperature
interval as
a reference. However, caution should be taken on the methodology to
perform
that specific temperature assessment / measurement or, putting it in
another way,
which source of information shall dictate if a certain temperature is
inappropriate
for the race on the day? The local weather authorities? Local official
weather report
plus a local ad-hoc measurement? Consider also that it is a average
measurement
hence caution on cut-off temperatures...

That said, a combination of water temperature and the expected time in
the water
(related to distance) would not confine the analysis to temperature
only, leaving room
for a more subjective analysis, namely, some common sense and
experience on the
observation of sea conditions.  The later shall be a bit difficult to
incorporate in an
econometric model...but testing on-site and within the realm of live
competitions
would be of utmost interest for any student taking a master degree on
sports medicine.

As for that incident reported and based only on the information
provided here technology
may play a role on this. Let me enlighten you on the use of GPS
devices for the exact
purpose of locating swimmers and for emergency uses.
Check out this link: http://nighttrainswimmers.org/NightTrainSwimmers/LIVE_TRACKING.html

This approach provides an additional dimension to your race as it
bridges a gap between
fans and followers of your group in Facebook providing a live global
platform follow-up for
the event. As for what safety is of concern these devices have an
emergency button too.

Alternatively, an RFID bracelet may be used by athletes and RFID
receptors may be
placed at checkpoints within the race course and at the finish line,
buoys and other
markers set to orient swimmers on the race. The closeness need to get
a validated record
ensures the swimmer passed through that spot hence he is swimming.

There is still a long way to go in terms of reaching more acceptable
risk levels when it comes
to open water swimming events, or lets say closer to �zero risk� if
such thing really exists (!).
But that is all what it is about openwater isn�t it? We all know there
is a bit of �gamble of our lives�
when we decide to enter the water, don�t we? Otherwise, we would
continue with in-door events
and, even so, there is always room for endless safety issues.

To end, I would like to express my sincere condolences to Fran's
family and to all his friends.
May he rest in peace.
Rgds, Jose

[SF Bay Swimmer]

And, I guess I'll toss out my thoughts as well but from the opposite end of the spectrum.  Bottom line - I would hate to see specific temperature limits set at either end - hot or cold.

 

Here in San Francisco, the water temperature is generally in the mid-50's (12 - 13 C).  While people can offset the effects of the cold by wearing wetsuits, members of both the Dolphin & South End Rowing Clubs generally eschew wetsuits, instead opting to acclimate their bodies to cold water.  In the past, there has been discussion among some associated with the myriad Alcatraz events to require the use of wetsuits thinking that swimming without them is exceptionally dangerous and risky (something the members of both clubs have disproved).  And while each event has a non wetsuit division, most Alcatraz race directors do, in no uncertain terms, encourage people to properly acclimate to cold water before attempting the swim.

 

And that's the point I believe should be emphasized with warm water swims - that people need to acclimate their bodies to the heat before attempting a warm water swim; and there are many non-aquatic ways to get acclimated to cold and heat. Setting a rigid temperature is just being too controlling and restrictive.    

 

When I swam Key West several years ago, I knew that swimming in SF Bay wasn't going to adequately prepare me for the 87 degree water that we experienced that day so I made a special effort to come down early and build up some degree of tolerance and acclimatization.

 

Just one more perspective,

 

Gary Emich 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kate Alexander

To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

Hi everyone,

Steven – what was the “very specific water temperature number that [you] recommended earlier this year”?

Here in the Cayman Islands, water temps usually run into the mid-80s during the summer (May-Sep). Occasionally temps can run into the upper 80s. Temps are 70+ the rest of the year. So we are acclimatized to warmer water. Also, our pool is an outdoor pool and is often very warm. So most of our training is done in warm water.

So, for our local races, consisting of 99% local swimmers, warm temps are fine. However, we do not hold any races in July and August, our hottest months. It's too hot for the volunteers too.

In our ops manual we have “water temperature too high” as a valid reason for postponing an event, but we have not (yet) stated a temperature – mostly because when we researched this for our safety plan, we couldn’t find ready guidelines. We did not want to state a max temp without a reference to back it up.

And yes, the whole weather picture must be considered, and as a whole, not just the individual elements. Water at 82 degrees in Cayman is much tougher for racing pace when the sun is out, the race is at mid-day and there is little wind and high humidity. The angle of the sun here is also much stronger, so that 85 air temp here feels much hotter than 85 in Michigan. This is where the Race Committee – composed of Chief Referee, Safety Officer, Course Officer, Medical Officer - must make a smart decision on race day that takes many factors into account – is the course not only at a safe temperature, but also are the waves, currents, air temp, boat traffic etc. also amenable? Any one of these factors being off can adversely affect the suitability of the whole course. (E.g., we, as swimmers or race directors, might expect that it would be worth the risk to hold a race if the water temp is quite warm and all other conditions are ideal – but if the water temp is high AND the currents are very strong in the wrong direction, then the risk is compounded.)

I found the cold water perception scales published recently in the Daily News to be very helpful and spot on in my experience – the descriptions for 80 and above are exactly how swimming feels for me here. I would not want to race (or train hard) in water above 82.

And yes, as a race director, I see a big difference between elite, age group, masters and recreational swimmers. I don’t think the temperature limit (or distance or age limit or course time limit) can be the same for all.

We plan to start using a red flag system for our race participants. A small piece of red cloth will be handed out at check-in – the cloth can be tucked into the swim suit and when any participant wants to call for help, they can roll over on their back or go upright and wave their flag, which will make them more visible to the support boats.

Of course the red flag doesn’t address all swimmer predicaments. But we hope it will help for fatigue, cramps, vomiting, dizziness, etc.

I hope that USASwimming and/or FINA will recommend a max temp based on good sports medicine. We need it for our safety guidelines.

Kate

On 10/28/2010 3:05 AM, Jose Ferreira Pinto wrote:

Dear Steve,
Dear All, great thread!

In Asia most of the competitors deal with dehydration as event are
cluttered within
the hot season. In other parts swimmers cope with hypothermia.

I propose a ratio “water temperature/competition time” and argue on
the
method to assess this temperature on the day of the race.
I end up providing some IT/tech ideas like the use of GPS devices and
RFID.

Building on what Doug just mention I would consider to use of a lycra
caps.
This type of material enables the body to release the heat produced
during
the competition. Has the head is one of the major parts where the
body
releases heat it is expected to reduce the likelihood of having
problems
when the water is too hot. This is actually what I have been doing in
open
water competitions namely, for races over 3K with water temperature
above 28C, i.e., 82.4F.

Consequently, I would consider convenient to define a temperature
interval as
a reference. However, caution should be taken on the methodology to
perform
that specific temperature assessment / measurement or, putting it in
another way,
which source of information shall dictate if a certain temperature is
inappropriate
for the race on the day? The local weather authorities? Local official
weather report
plus a local ad-hoc measurement? Consider also that it is a average
measurement
hence caution on cut-off temperatures...

That said, a combination of water temperature and the expected time in
the water
(related to distance) would not confine the analysis to temperature
only, leaving room
for a more subjective analysis, namely, some common sense and
experience on the
observation of sea conditions.  The later shall be a bit difficult to
incorporate in an
econometric model...but testing on-site and within the realm of live
competitions
would be of utmost interest for any student taking a master degree on
sports medicine.

As for that incident reported and based only on the information
provided here technology
may play a role on this. Let me enlighten you on the use of GPS
devices for the exact
purpose of locating swimmers and for emergency uses.
Check out this link: http://nighttrainswimmers.org/NightTrainSwimmers/LIVE_TRACKING.html

This approach provides an additional dimension to your race as it
bridges a gap between
fans and followers of your group in Facebook providing a live global
platform follow-up for
the event. As for what safety is of concern these devices have an
emergency button too.

Alternatively, an RFID bracelet may be used by athletes and RFID
receptors may be
placed at checkpoints within the race course and at the finish line,
buoys and other
markers set to orient swimmers on the race. The closeness need to get
a validated record
ensures the swimmer passed through that spot hence he is swimming.

There is still a long way to go in terms of reaching more acceptable
risk levels when it comes
to open water swimming events, or lets say closer to “zero risk” if
such thing really exists (!).
But that is all what it is about openwater isn’t it? We all know there
is a bit of “gamble of our lives”
when we decide to enter the water, don’t we? Otherwise, we would
continue with in-door events
and, even so, there is always room for endless safety issues.

To end, I would like to express my sincere condolences to Fran's
family and to all his friends.
May he rest in peace.
Rgds, Jose

[Kurt Thiel]

Hi All,

 

I have just recently joined this group and unfortunately my first post is brought about by the death of a swimmer I know and had hoped to know better in this next year and for years to come.  To all who are suffering grief at the death of Fran, but most especially for Fran’s Mom, may you find solace in the goodness of time.

I believe all of you have helped me reach the following conclusions:

We need better research to understand what happens to the core temperature of a swimmer given water temperature and level of effort over known periods of time.

 

We as a group need to call for the immediate research gained on “wired” swimmers in the flume from a varied sample of ages/competition levels/distances/temperature/and for both genders.  I’m certain we have experts in the field of Sports Medicine who are capable of this kind of research and  I hope they have already been tasked by USAS to get to work on this ASAP.

 

 I have not found a good body of information to act as a baseline on which we could build.  Has anyone?  We need to find out what Medical Examiners know are core temperatures that kill/debilitate so that we can make sense out of what the flume data tells us happens to the swimmer’s core temperature over various conditions for the various subjects.

 

We need to have a suggested upper limit based on science just as we have a suggested lower temperature of 60F/16C based on science…it is based on solid science isn’t it?

 

Kurt Thiel

Potomac Open Water Swim     

[Steven Munatones]

Kurt,

 

Attached is a water temperature perception scale that I worked on with a few other marathon swimmers (noted in the document).  The scale is only meant as a guideline and was based on our personal experiences as marathon swimmers, but it is obviously skewed to our cold-water experiences.  With the tragedy in Dubai, we would like to further develop the scale on the higher (i.e., warmer) end.  I sent this subjective scale to a few physicians with my suggestions for the higher end, but I strongly believe much more research is needed in our sport on this issue (refer to http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/10/open-water-swimming-research-where-is.html).

 

Please feel free to make suggestions on this subjective scale – which is also posted at http://www.openwatersource.com/cold--warm-water-acclimatization.html.  Please understand the scale is only meant as a guideline for marathon swimmers, coaches, parents and race directors.  It is not based on scientific research.  Please feel free to send to your colleagues and friends in the medical and scientific communities who also are open water swimmers.  I have read a lot of research on warm-weather conditions performed on and with marathon runners, triathletes and cyclists, but our environment is so different from these land-based activities, that I believe we need our own sport-specific research conducted on not only elite athletes, but also athletes of all ages and abilities.  

 

To address your question below, the suggested lower limit of 16°C is, according to my understanding, based on the general consensus of experienced open water swimming people and not based on peer-reviewed scientific research.  I could be very wrong on this.  However, Shelley Taylor-Smith and Sid Cassidy who are cc’ed on this email can confirm this for us. 

 

Also, if you want to review the rules of the sport, you can also go here: http://www.openwatersource.com/open-water-rules.html.

 

Steven Munatones

[Karen Reeder]

Kurt,

 

I don't like to further muddy the waters, but her goes anyways

 

I participated in a study up in Lac St. Jean, Canada, in the 90's where we swallowed a device to measure internal temperature.  During the race they came around in a boat and hovered a device over out bodies that measured the internal temperature.  It happened to be a really warm year up there, so no one got hypothermic. 

 

What I do remember is that none of the temperatures taken (by ear, under the armpit, by mouth) correlated with the internal temperature  readings.  Also, between swimmers there weren't correlations either.  IE, the ear temp was colder than the internal for some, and warmer than the internal for others.  

 

They said they would send us results, but I never saw them. 

 

Karen Reeder

 

 

Message -----

[Christopher LaBianco]

Not sure if this a reply all type of email. But I welcome the opportunity to weigh in on the open water temperature discussion.  My concern with the chart is simply that it classifies pool swimming temperature "essentially 80" degrees as warm...

Knowing that open water swimming badly relies on support from the pool swimming community,  I think we need to be cautious with charts that make statements to this effect.

That said I can agree with the rest of the bracket descriptions.

Just my 2 cents.

Christopher A. LaBianco, Sr.

719-351-6420

clab...@yahoo.com

<Open Water Swimming - Water Temperature Perception Scale.doc>

[Steven Munatones]

Good point, Chris.  I understand how this can be inaccurately construed by our pool swimming colleagues.  I will modify the chart to document the intentions in which it was created – for marathon swimmers in open bodies of water under cloudless skies with the same air temperature as the water temperature indicated (e.g., if the water temperature is listed at 80°F, then the air temperature was also assumed to be 80°F).  there was no assumption on humidity as I live in Southern California and humidity largely does not affect me here, although I realize it can affect others in more humid locations.  I need to add some level of humidity for reference purposes.

[JonesEney Jones]

I applaud this discussion, with the caiber of this board of exceptional people I feel confident appropriate measures will be made; this comes after breaking my T.V. yesterday after hearing Diana Nyad speak on 10 k swimmers in the heat. I am 65-85 girl,  but that is personal preference. One of the issues I think will need to be addressed is that many swimmers before Dubai did a cold water race the week end before. I find these capillary gymnastics to be difficult and taxing.
 

---

From: head...@10Kswim.com
To: clab...@yahoo.com
CC: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com; Cham...@ChampionMindset.com.au; sid.c...@saintandrewsschool.net; ch...@archonomy.biz; jensch...@cox.net; lweis...@gmail.com; lweis...@me.com; coac...@sbswim.net; eney...@hotmail.com; sakura....@googlemail.com; Br...@aol.com; dksr...@skybeam.com; JWMS...@aol.com; K.Th...@warwick.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:18:04 -0700

[Kate Alexander]

Water temperature does not equal air temp here in Cayman.

�

Normally, water temp is 5-10 degrees lower than air temp.

�

Water temp here is affected much more by wind than by air temp or sun. Our open water and pool temps drop dramatically on windy days. The more windy days in a row, the cooler the water gets. And it remains cooler for up to several days after the wind dies until the sun can warm it back up.

�

Storms can also bring in cooler or warmer water. It might seem like a �cool� day for swimming when a storm has just passed and the sky is cloudy, but the water is actually surprisingly warm because it came in from the south on a storm.

Kate

On 10/29/2010 6:18 PM, Steven Munatones wrote:

Good point, Chris.� I understand how this can be inaccurately construed by our pool swimming colleagues.� I will modify the chart to document the intentions in which it was created � for marathon swimmers in open bodies of water under cloudless skies with the same air temperature as the water temperature indicated (e.g., if the water temperature is listed at 80�F, then the air temperature was also assumed to be 80�F).� there was no assumption on humidity as I live in Southern California and humidity largely does not affect me here, although I realize it can affect others in more humid locations.� I need to add some level of humidity for reference purposes.

�

From: Christopher LaBianco [mailto:clab...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:49 PM
To: Steven Munatones
Cc: <openwater-r...@googlegroups.com>; Shelley Taylor-Smith; sid cassidy; <ch...@archonomy.biz>; Jen Schumacher; Laurin Weisenthal; Larry Weisenthal; John Dussliere; JonesEney Jones; <sakura....@googlemail.com>; Bonnie Ford; Karen Reeder; <JWMS...@aol.com>; Karen Throsby
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue

�

Not sure if this a reply all type of email. But I welcome the opportunity to weigh in on the open water temperature discussion. �My concern with the chart is simply that it classifies pool swimming temperature "essentially 80" degrees as warm...

�

Knowing that open water swimming badly relies on support from the pool swimming community, �I think we need to be cautious with charts that make statements to this effect.

�

That said I can agree with the rest of the bracket descriptions.

�

Just my 2 cents.

Christopher A. LaBianco, Sr.

719-351-6420

clab...@yahoo.com

�

�

On Oct 29, 2010, at 3:14 PM, "Steven Munatones" <head...@10Kswim.com> wrote:

Kurt,

�

Attached is a water temperature perception scale that I worked on with a few other marathon swimmers (noted in the document).� The scale is only meant as a guideline and was based on our personal experiences as marathon swimmers, but it is obviously skewed to our cold-water experiences.� With the tragedy in Dubai, we would like to further develop the scale on the higher (i.e., warmer) end.� I sent this subjective scale to a few physicians with my suggestions for the higher end, but I strongly believe much more research is needed in our sport on this issue (refer to http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/10/open-water-swimming-research-where-is.html).

�

Please feel free to make suggestions on this subjective scale � which is also posted at http://www.openwatersource.com/cold--warm-water-acclimatization.html.� Please understand the scale is only meant as a guideline for marathon swimmers, coaches, parents and race directors.� It is not based on scientific research.� Please feel free to send to your colleagues and friends in the medical and scientific communities who also are open water swimmers.� I have read a lot of research on warm-weather conditions performed on and with marathon runners, triathletes and cyclists, but our environment is so different from these land-based activities, that I believe we need our own sport-specific research conducted on not only elite athletes, but also athletes of all ages and abilities. �

�

To address your question below, the suggested lower limit of 16�C is, according to my understanding, based on the general consensus of experienced open water swimming people and not based on peer-reviewed scientific research.� I could be very wrong on this.� However, Shelley Taylor-Smith and Sid Cassidy who are cc�ed on this email can confirm this for us.�

�

Also, if you want to review the rules of the sport, you can also go here: http://www.openwatersource.com/open-water-rules.html.

�

Steven Munatones

�

�

�

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Thiel
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:02 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

�

Hi All,

�

I have just recently joined this group and unfortunately my first post is brought about by the death of a swimmer I know and had hoped to know better in this next year and for years to come. �To all who are suffering grief at the death of Fran, but most especially for Fran�s Mom, may you find solace in the goodness of time.

I believe all of you have helped me reach the following conclusions:

We need better research to understand what happens to the core temperature of a swimmer given water temperature and level of effort over known periods of time.

�

We as a group need to call for the immediate research gained on �wired� swimmers in the flume from a varied sample of ages/competition levels/distances/temperature/and for both genders.� I�m certain we have experts in the field of Sports Medicine who are capable of this kind of research and� I hope they have already been tasked by USAS to get to work on this ASAP.

�

�I have not found a good body of information to act as a baseline on which we could build.� Has anyone?� We need to find out what Medical Examiners know are core temperatures that kill/debilitate so that we can make sense out of what the flume data tells us happens to the swimmer�s core temperature over various conditions for the various subjects.

�

We need to have a suggested upper limit based on science just as we have a suggested lower temperature of 60F/16C based on science�it is based on solid science isn�t it?

�

Kurt Thiel

Potomac Open Water Swim� ���

�

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of SF Bay Swimmer
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:14 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

�

And, I guess I'll toss out my thoughts as well but from the opposite end of the spectrum.� Bottom line - I would hate to see specific temperature limits set at either end - hot or cold.

�

Here in San Francisco, the water temperature is generally in the mid-50's (12 - 13 C).� While people can offset the effects of the cold by wearing wetsuits, members of both the Dolphin & South End Rowing Clubs generally eschew wetsuits, instead opting to acclimate their bodies to cold water.� In the past, there has been discussion among some associated with the myriad Alcatraz events to require the use of wetsuits thinking that swimming without them is exceptionally dangerous and risky (something the members of both clubs have disproved).��And while each event has a non wetsuit division, most Alcatraz race directors do, in no uncertain terms, encourage people to properly acclimate to cold water before attempting the swim.

�

And that's the point I believe should be emphasized with�warm water swims - that people need to acclimate their bodies to the heat before attempting a warm water swim; and there are many non-aquatic ways to�get acclimated to cold and heat.�Setting a rigid temperature is just being too controlling and restrictive.� ��

�

When I swam Key West several years ago, I knew that�swimming in SF Bay wasn't going to adequately prepare me for the 87 degree water that we experienced that day so I made a special effort to�come down early and build up some degree of tolerance and acclimatization.

�

Just one more perspective,

�

Gary Emich�

----- Original Message -----

From: Kate Alexander

To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

�

Hi everyone,

Steven � what was the �very specific water temperature number that [you] recommended earlier this year�?

Here in the Cayman Islands, water temps usually run into the mid-80s during the summer (May-Sep). Occasionally temps can run into the upper 80s. Temps are 70+ the rest of the year. So we are acclimatized to warmer water. Also, our pool is an outdoor pool and is often very warm. So most of our training is done in warm water.

So, for our local races, consisting of 99% local swimmers, warm temps are fine. However, we do not hold any races in July and August, our hottest months. It's too hot for the volunteers too.

In our ops manual we have �water temperature too high� as a valid reason for postponing an event, but we have not (yet) stated a temperature � mostly because when we researched this for our safety plan, we couldn�t find ready guidelines. We did not want to state a max temp without a reference to back it up.

And yes, the whole weather picture must be considered, and as a whole, not just the individual elements. Water at 82 degrees in Cayman is much tougher for racing pace when the sun is out, the race is at mid-day and there is little wind and high humidity. The angle of the sun here is also much stronger, so that 85 air temp here feels much hotter than 85 in Michigan. This is where the Race Committee � composed of Chief Referee, Safety Officer, Course Officer, Medical Officer - must make a smart decision on race day that takes many factors into account � is the course not only at a safe temperature, but also are the waves, currents, air temp, boat traffic etc. also amenable? Any one of these factors being off can adversely affect the suitability of the whole course. (E.g., we, as swimmers or race directors, might expect that it would be worth the risk to hold a race if the water temp is quite warm and all other conditions are ideal � but if the water temp is high AND the currents are very strong in the wrong direction, then the risk is compounded.)

I found the cold water perception scales published recently in the Daily News to be very helpful and spot on in my experience � the descriptions for 80 and above are exactly how swimming feels for me here. I would not want to race (or train hard) in water above 82.

And yes, as a race director, I see a big difference between elite, age group, masters and recreational swimmers. I don�t think the temperature limit (or distance or age limit or course time limit) can be the same for all.

We plan to start using a red flag system for our race participants. A small piece of red cloth will be handed out at check-in � the cloth can be tucked into the swim suit and when any participant wants to call for help, they can roll over on their back or go upright and wave their flag, which will make them more visible to the support boats.

Of course the red flag doesn�t address all swimmer predicaments. But we hope it will help for fatigue, cramps, vomiting, dizziness, etc.

I hope that USASwimming and/or FINA will recommend a max temp based on good sports medicine. We need it for our safety guidelines.

Kate

On 10/28/2010 3:05 AM, Jose Ferreira Pinto wrote:

Dear Steve,

Dear All, great thread!

�

In Asia most of the competitors deal with dehydration as event are

cluttered within

the hot season. In other parts swimmers cope with hypothermia.

�

I propose a ratio �water temperature/competition time� and argue on

the

method to assess this temperature on the day of the race.

I end up providing some IT/tech ideas like the use of GPS devices and

RFID.

�

Building on what Doug just mention I would consider to use of a lycra

caps.

This type of material enables the body to release the heat produced

during

the competition. Has the head is one of the major parts where the

body

releases heat it is expected to reduce the likelihood of having

problems

when the water is too hot. This is actually what I have been doing in

open

water competitions namely, for races over 3K with water temperature

above 28C, i.e., 82.4F.

�

Consequently, I would consider convenient to define a temperature

interval as

a reference. However, caution should be taken on the methodology to

perform

that specific temperature assessment / measurement or, putting it in

another way,

which source of information shall dictate if a certain temperature is

inappropriate

for the race on the day? The local weather authorities? Local official

weather report

plus a local ad-hoc measurement? Consider also that it is a average

measurement

hence caution on cut-off temperatures...

�

That said, a combination of water temperature and the expected time in

the water

(related to distance) would not confine the analysis to temperature

only, leaving room

for a more subjective analysis, namely, some common sense and

experience on the

observation of sea conditions.� The later shall be a bit difficult to

incorporate in an

econometric model...but testing on-site and within the realm of live

competitions

would be of utmost interest for any student taking a master degree on

sports medicine.

�

As for that incident reported and based only on the information

provided here technology

may play a role on this. Let me enlighten you on the use of GPS

devices for the exact

purpose of locating swimmers and for emergency uses.

Check out this link: http://nighttrainswimmers.org/NightTrainSwimmers/LIVE_TRACKING.html

Have a look at this one too: http://tinyurl.com/24y7969

And also this one: http://www.findmespot.eu/en/index.php?cid=103

This approach provides an additional dimension to your race as it

bridges a gap between

fans and followers of your group in Facebook providing a live global

platform follow-up for

the event. As for what safety is of concern these devices have an

emergency button too.

�

Alternatively, an RFID bracelet may be used by athletes and RFID

receptors may be

placed at checkpoints within the race course and at the finish line,

buoys and other

markers set to orient swimmers on the race. The closeness need to get

a validated record

ensures the swimmer passed through that spot hence he is swimming.

�

There is still a long way to go in terms of reaching more acceptable

risk levels when it comes

to open water swimming events, or lets say closer to �zero risk� if

such thing really exists (!).

But that is all what it is about openwater isn�t it? We all know there

is a bit of �gamble of our lives�

when we decide to enter the water, don�t we? Otherwise, we would

continue with in-door events

and, even so, there is always room for endless safety issues.

�

To end, I would like to express my sincere condolences to Fran's

family and to all his friends.

May he rest in peace.

Rgds, Jose

�

[Wvwelzien]

 

Greetings from Key West,

 

I have been following the emails on the water temp discussion.  This is a great interest to me as I organize a warm water event.  I am completing a information document that will go out to all on our email list and I clearly state that the Annual Swim Around Key West (12.5 miles) is a warm water swim.  Our 35th Annual swim is scheduled for June 4th, weeks earlier than this year's June 26th swim.

 

I tell the swimmers that they can expect our water temp to be some where around 83-85 degrees.  The last swim brought temps around 85 but a week earlier the water was up to 87-88.  It cooled due to a good wind the week before and leading up to the event.

 

Every event has its unique challenges and this is not an event for people who eschew warm water.  My body loves the warm water and cringes in cold.

 

I attempted Tampa Bay several years ago and the water was sub 70 degrees.  I swam the most miserable eleven plus hours in my life.  I was stiff as a board and it took me hours to bring my core temp to normal.

 

Last year I purposely waited until September to swim the length of the Sea of Galilee so the water would be at its warmest.  It was about 83 degrees and I loved it so much.  My time in Galilee was only one less than in Tampa Bay.

 

I am not an elite swimmer or even a fast swimmers but I like to go long and consider anything below 78 degrees cold. 

 

I have been organizing the Annual Swim Around Key West for about 8 years now and I have not known of anyone who was physically forced to quit due to heat exhaustion due to the water temp, thankfully there have been no deaths nor hospitalizations to date, for any reason. Honestly, I have heard very little, if any complaints about the water temp from swimmers who have swum this venue.

 

We mandate that every swimmer has his/her own support kayak or escort boat and have numerous "Committee Boats" overseeing the swimmers just in case. 

 

We urge swimmers stay well hydrated.

 

Bill Welzien

Organizer

35th Annual Swim Around Key West (12.5 miles)

Saturday, June 4th, 2011

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kate Alexander <kate...@candw.ky>
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 30, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue

Water temperature does not equal air temp here in Cayman.

 

Normally, water temp is 5-10 degrees lower than air temp.

 

Water temp here is affected much more by wind than by air temp or sun. Our open water and pool temps drop dramatically on windy days. The more windy days in a row, the cooler the water gets. And it remains cooler for up to several days after the wind dies until the sun can warm it back up.

 

Storms can also bring in cooler or warmer water. It might seem like a ‘cool’ day for swimming when a storm has just passed and the sky is cloudy, but the water is actually surprisingly warm because it came in from the south on a storm.

Kate

On 10/29/2010 6:18 PM, Steven Munatones wrote:

Good point, Chris.  I understand how this can be inaccurately construed by our pool swimming colleagues.  I will modify the chart to document the intentions in which it was created – for marathon swimmers in open bodies of water under cloudless skies with the same air temperature as the water temperature indicated (e.g., if the water temperature is listed at 80°F, then the air temperature was also assumed to be 80°F).  there was no assumption on humidity as I live in Southern California and humidity largely does not affect me here, although I realize it can affect others in more humid locations.  I need to add some level of humidity for reference purposes.

 

From: Christopher LaBianco [mailto:clab...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:49 PM
To: Steven Munatones
Cc: <openwater-r...@googlegroups.com>; Shelley Taylor-Smith; sid cassidy; <ch...@archonomy.biz>; Jen Schumacher; Laurin Weisenthal; Larry Weisenthal; John Dussliere; JonesEney Jones; <sakura....@googlemail.com>; Bonnie Ford; Karen Reeder; <JWMS...@aol.com>; Karen Throsby
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue

 

Not sure if this a reply all type of email. But I welcome the opportunity to weigh in on the open water temperature discussion.  My concern with the chart is simply that it classifies pool swimming temperature "essentially 80" degrees as warm...

 

Knowing that open water swimming badly relies on support from the pool swimming community,  I think we need to be cautious with charts that make statements to this effect.

 

That said I can agree with the rest of the bracket descriptions.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Christopher A. LaBianco, Sr.

719-351-6420

clab...@yahoo.com

 

 

On Oct 29, 2010, at 3:14 PM, "Steven Munatones" <head...@10Kswim.com> wrote:

Kurt,

 

Attached is a water temperature perception scale that I worked on with a few other marathon swimmers (noted in the document).  The scale is only meant as a guideline and was based on our personal experiences as marathon swimmers, but it is obviously skewed to our cold-water experiences.  With the tragedy in Dubai, we would like to further develop the scale on the higher (i.e., warmer) end.  I sent this subjective scale to a few physicians with my suggestions for the higher end, but I strongly believe much more research is needed in our sport on this issue (refer to http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/10/open-water-swimming-research-where-is.html).

 

Please feel free to make suggestions on this subjective scale – which is also posted at http://www.openwatersource.com/cold--warm-water-acclimatization.html.  Please understand the scale is only meant as a guideline for marathon swimmers, coaches, parents and race directors.  It is not based on scientific research.  Please feel free to send to your colleagues and friends in the medical and scientific communities who also are open water swimmers.  I have read a lot of research on warm-weather conditions performed on and with marathon runners, triathletes and cyclists, but our environment is so different from these land-based activities, that I believe we need our own sport-specific research conducted on not only elite athletes, but also athletes of all ages and abilities.  

 

To address your question below, the suggested lower limit of 16°C is, according to my understanding, based on the general consensus of experienced open water swimming people and not based on peer-reviewed scientific research.  I could be very wrong on this.  However, Shelley Taylor-Smith and Sid Cassidy who are cc’ed on this email can confirm this for us. 

 

Also, if you want to review the rules of the sport, you can also go here: http://www.openwatersource.com/open-water-rules.html.

 

Steven Munatones

 

 

 

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Thiel
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:02 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

 

Hi All,

 

I have just recently joined this group and unfortunately my first post is brought about by the death of a swimmer I know and had hoped to know better in this next year and for years to come.  To all who are suffering grief at the death of Fran, but most especially for Fran’s Mom, may you find solace in the goodness of time.

I believe all of you have helped me reach the following conclusions:

We need better research to understand what happens to the core temperature of a swimmer given water temperature and level of effort over known periods of time.

 

We as a group need to call for the immediate research gained on “wired” swimmers in the flume from a varied sample of ages/competition levels/distances/temperature/and for both genders.  I’m certain we have experts in the field of Sports Medicine who are capable of this kind of research and  I hope they have already been tasked by USAS to get to work on this ASAP.

 

 I have not found a good body of information to act as a baseline on which we could build.  Has anyone?  We need to find out what Medical Examiners know are core temperatures that kill/debilitate so that we can make sense out of what the flume data tells us happens to the swimmer’s core temperature over various conditions for the various subjects.

 

We need to have a suggested upper limit based on science just as we have a suggested lower temperature of 60F/16C based on science…it is based on solid science isn’t it?

 

Kurt Thiel

Potomac Open Water Swim     

 

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of SF Bay Swimmer
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:14 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

 

And, I guess I'll toss out my thoughts as well but from the opposite end of the spectrum.  Bottom line - I would hate to see specific temperature limits set at either end - hot or cold.

 

Here in San Francisco, the water temperature is generally in the mid-50's (12 - 13 C).  While people can offset the effects of the cold by wearing wetsuits, members of both the Dolphin & South End Rowing Clubs generally eschew wetsuits, instead opting to acclimate their bodies to cold water.  In the past, there has been discussion among some associated with the myriad Alcatraz events to require the use of wetsuits thinking that swimming without them is exceptionally dangerous and risky (something the members of both clubs have disproved).  And while each event has a non wetsuit division, most Alcatraz race directors do, in no uncertain terms, encourage people to properly acclimate to cold water before attempting the swim.

 

And that's the point I believe should be emphasized with warm water swims - that people need to acclimate their bodies to the heat before attempting a warm water swim; and there are many non-aquatic ways to get acclimated to cold and heat. Setting a rigid temperature is just being too controlling and restrictive.    

 

When I swam Key West several years ago, I knew that swimming in SF Bay wasn't going to adequately prepare me for the 87 degree water that we experienced that day so I made a special effort to come down early and build up some degree of tolerance and acclimatization.

 

Just one more perspective,

 

Gary Emich 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kate Alexander

To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

 

Hi everyone,

Steven – what was the “very specific water temperature number that [you] recommended earlier this year”?

Here in the Cayman Islands, water temps usually run into the mid-80s during the summer (May-Sep). Occasionally temps can run into the upper 80s. Temps are 70+ the rest of the year. So we are acclimatized to warmer water. Also, our pool is an outdoor pool and is often very warm. So most of our training is done in warm water.

So, for our local races, consisting of 99% local swimmers, warm temps are fine. However, we do not hold any races in July and August, our hottest months. It's too hot for the volunteers too.

In our ops manual we have “water temperature too high” as a valid reason for postponing an event, but we have not (yet) stated a temperature – mostly because when we researched this for our safety plan, we couldn’t find ready guidelines. We did not want to state a max temp without a reference to back it up.

And yes, the whole weather picture must be considered, and as a whole, not just the individual elements. Water at 82 degrees in Cayman is much tougher for racing pace when the sun is out, the race is at mid-day and there is little wind and high humidity. The angle of the sun here is also much stronger, so that 85 air temp here feels much hotter than 85 in Michigan. This is where the Race Committee – composed of Chief Referee, Safety Officer, Course Officer, Medical Officer - must make a smart decision on race day that takes many factors into account – is the course not only at a safe temperature, but also are the waves, currents, air temp, boat traffic etc. also amenable? Any one of these factors being off can adversely affect the suitability of the whole course. (E.g., we, as swimmers or race directors, might expect that it would be worth the risk to hold a race if the water temp is quite warm and all other conditions are ideal – but if the water temp is high AND the currents are very strong in the wrong direction, then the risk is compounded.)

I found the cold water perception scales published recently in the Daily News to be very helpful and spot on in my experience – the descriptions for 80 and above are exactly how swimming feels for me here. I would not want to race (or train hard) in water above 82.

And yes, as a race director, I see a big difference between elite, age group, masters and recreational swimmers. I don’t think the temperature limit (or distance or age limit or course time limit) can be the same for all.

We plan to start using a red flag system for our race participants. A small piece of red cloth will be handed out at check-in – the cloth can be tucked into the swim suit and when any participant wants to call for help, they can roll over on their back or go upright and wave their flag, which will make them more visible to the support boats.

Of course the red flag doesn’t address all swimmer predicaments. But we hope it will help for fatigue, cramps, vomiting, dizziness, etc.

I hope that USASwimming and/or FINA will recommend a max temp based on good sports medicine. We need it for our safety guidelines.

Kate

On 10/28/2010 3:05 AM, Jose Ferreira Pinto wrote:

Dear Steve,

Dear All, great thread!

In Asia most of the competitors deal with dehydration as event are

cluttered within

the hot season. In other parts swimmers cope with hypothermia.

I propose a ratio “water temperature/competition time” and argue on

the

method to assess this temperature on the day of the race.

I end up providing some IT/tech ideas like the use of GPS devices and

RFID.

Building on what Doug just mention I would consider to use of a lycra

caps.

This type of material enables the body to release the heat produced

during

the competition. Has the head is one of the major parts where the

body

releases heat it is expected to reduce the likelihood of having

problems

when the water is too hot. This is actually what I have been doing in

open

water competitions namely, for races over 3K with water temperature

above 28C, i.e., 82.4F.

Consequently, I would consider convenient to define a temperature

interval as

a reference. However, caution should be taken on the methodology to

perform

that specific temperature assessment / measurement or, putting it in

another way,

which source of information shall dictate if a certain temperature is

inappropriate

for the race on the day? The local weather authorities? Local official

weather report

plus a local ad-hoc measurement? Consider also that it is a average

measurement

hence caution on cut-off temperatures...

That said, a combination of water temperature and the expected time in

the water

(related to distance) would not confine the analysis to temperature

only, leaving room

for a more subjective analysis, namely, some common sense and

experience on the

observation of sea conditions.  The later shall be a bit difficult to

incorporate in an

econometric model...but testing on-site and within the realm of live

competitions

would be of utmost interest for any student taking a master degree on

sports medicine.

As for that incident reported and based only on the information

provided here technology

may play a role on this. Let me enlighten you on the use of GPS

devices for the exact

purpose of locating swimmers and for emergency uses.

Check out this link: http://nighttrainswimmers.org/NightTrainSwimmers/LIVE_TRACKING.html

Have a look at this one too: http://tinyurl.com/24y7969

And also this one: http://www.findmespot.eu/en/index.php?cid=103

This approach provides an additional dimension to your race as it

bridges a gap between

fans and followers of your group in Facebook providing a live global

platform follow-up for

the event. As for what safety is of concern these devices have an

emergency button too.

Alternatively, an RFID bracelet may be used by athletes and RFID

receptors may be

placed at checkpoints within the race course and at the finish line,

buoys and other

markers set to orient swimmers on the race. The closeness need to get

a validated record

ensures the swimmer passed through that spot hence he is swimming.

There is still a long way to go in terms of reaching more acceptable

risk levels when it comes

to open water swimming events, or lets say closer to “zero risk” if

such thing really exists (!).

But that is all what it is about openwater isn’t it? We all know there

is a bit of “gamble of our lives”

when we decide to enter the water, don’t we? Otherwise, we would

continue with in-door events

and, even so, there is always room for endless safety issues.

To end, I would like to express my sincere condolences to Fran's

family and to all his friends.

May he rest in peace.

Rgds, Jose

--

[JWMS...@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/29/2010 7:57:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eney...@hotmail.com writes:

 

Hi Steve,

 

Research is clearly needed.  A simple scale will not work.  For instance, if we take 72 degree water - lower limit of slightly chilled but comfortable swim - factor in sun vs overcast, dry vs raining, wind vs calm, current vs still water you will have very different athlete responses.  I am no proposing that I know how to come up with a formula that takes these into account but that would be ideal.

 

As you know, we have a lower limit of 16 degrees Cent. (60.8 F) and will need an upper number or formula to calculate a limit, based upon the energy exchange systems.

 

Will all athletes respond equally - no.  Will all athletes of varying BMI respond the same - no.  Will all athletes responde the same based on age (capillary density and body surface vs mass calculations) - no.  Not an easy task and my guess is that this is why it is not well researched.

 

Jim

I applaud this discussion, with the caiber of this board of exceptional people I feel confident appropriate measures will be made; this comes after breaking my T.V. yesterday after hearing Diana Nyad speak on 10 k swimmers in the heat. I am 65-85 girl,  but that is personal preference. One of the issues I think will need to be addressed is that many swimmers before Dubai did a cold water race the week end before. I find these capillary gymnastics to be difficult and taxing.
 

---

From: head...@10Kswim.com
To: clab...@yahoo.com
CC: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com; Cham...@ChampionMindset.com.au; sid.c...@saintandrewsschool.net; ch...@archonomy.biz; jensch...@cox.net; lweis...@gmail.com; lweis...@me.com; coac...@sbswim.net; eney...@hotmail.com; sakura....@googlemail.com; Br...@aol.com; dksr...@skybeam.com; JWMS...@aol.com; K.Th...@warwick.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:18:04 -0700

=

 

[Colin Hill]

This year Great Swim had to make the tuff call to cancel the British
Gas Great North Swim, due to high levels of Blue Green Algae. We had
9000 entries and predicted spectators of 20,000. I mention this to
show that water levels to high, low or water quality too low, the
events organiser has a duty of care of the swimmers and that must come
first.

With regards to temp - like some here, our events are both mass
participation and elite. Wetsuits are worn by our elite swimmers and
when optional by 95% of our swimmers.

Our swims in 2010 were one mile.

Under 15 degrees - wetsuits compulsory;

11 - 12 degrees (course is reduced to 800m)
12 - 13 degrees (course reduced to 1200m)
13 - 15 degrees (any distance up to 2000m)
Over 23 degrees wetsuits not allowed
I don't think we've ever had water over 30 degrees, but I will look at
advice on here and add a max temp into the safety plan. Sometimes
events can be put on by non-swimmers and the Event Safety Plan needs
to have every aspect of the safety clearly laid out.

With regards to the Blue Green Algae (which cancelled two swim events
for us this year), I'm working on a document with UK specilists in
that area, based on the World Health Organisation guidelines to
produce a table which covers various types of algae and the safe
swimming levels recommended. I've found the different areas that we
hold our swims the local authorities have varying standards which they
will then ban swimming.

Colin Hill
colin...@nova-international.com

[Karen Reeder]

Hello,

Another variable with water temp is that lake, ocean and pool of the same
temperature all "feel" different. I always thought it was about a 2 degree
difference between lake and ocean, ie 64 degrees in the ocean feels the same
as 66 in a lake. I have experienced also that pools have even a colder
"feel" than lakes do. If it is about the same difference as lake/ocean and
applied to the chart it would make sense to pool coaches as well.

78 degree ocean = 80 degree lake = 82 degree pool
80 degree ocean = 82 degree lake = 84 degree pool
82 degree ocean = 84 degree lake = 86 degree pool

I'm not sure what the mechanism is for the difference. (Humidty in air
causes a difference in "feel"). There isn't science to back this up
either. Maybe it is the thermal conductivity of the water which changes the
rate at which the body heats/cools? If anybody was doing a study, though,
they would have to keep this in mind. The results would be different based
upon the type of water in which it was conducted. The likely place for a
study is in a pool due to safety considerations and that might not yield the
expected result.

Karen Reeder

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Hill" <chil...@gmail.com>
To: "Open Water Race Directors" <openwater-r...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

Colin Hill
colin...@nova-international.com

--

[Vito Bialla]

Hi all

Just read through all this and have a short comment if it adds value. I’ve done events in hot and cold.

Badwater twice where you run 40 hours plus in 125 degree’s and swimming in the SF bay as cold as 48 degree’s.

I think the colder swims are hardest but don’t effect us physically unless you stay in a stupid amount of time ( say over 90 min at that temp) . The lure of the sauna always calls us out well before we go too crazy. I don’t think hot or cold kills you. It can be many things heart attack, getting trampled by a racer , swallow water then drown and more. First twenty min at Ironman swim is usually hand to hand combat, can be quite dangerous.

Brian Maxwell founder of Power Bar was a healthy former 2:14 marathoner. He still ran every day went to the Post office after an 8 mile run and dropped dead while waiting in line.

Every death is obviously tragic but I wouldn’t focus on trying to make new rules limiting running or swimming in certain temperatures.

More cyclists’ get killed by cars and trucks then swimmers drown for whatever reason.

We take risks every day the minute we walk out the door.

This is a fabulous sport and I would love to see it continue to grow as it is.

Vito Bialla www.nighttrainswimmers.org

 

 

 

---

[Larry Weisenthal]

Brian Maxwll was an old man with heart disease. Fran Crippen was a very young man, who didn't die of a heart attack, or IHSS, or rhabdomyolysis -- and he most certainly did NOT die of "exhaustion."  

Marathon RACE swimming (racing against other swimmers) in 87 degree water at a world class level is much more dangerous than running Badwater with a sag wagon. Crippen almost certainly died of dehydration, with total circulatory collapse.  As I've repeatedly explained, dehydration is of much greater concern in a marathon RACE swimmer in hot water, because (1) when racing in packs and seeking not to get dropped, swimmers don't take in nearly the water which runners can swallow, at their leisure, while carrying a water bottle and (2) a dehydrated runner will simply have his legs buckle, fall to the ground, and, in the process, raise his blood pressure back to safe levels.  He may lay on the ground, but he won't drown.  A swimmer (in the horizontal position)  will continue to perfuse his brain with blood and avoid syncope (fainting).  Thus, he can get much more dehydrated than can a runner, before experiencing grossly obvious performance deterioration. The swimmer can keep going until he becomes so hypovolemic that he has massive and sudden circulatory collapse and sinks beneath the water.

Crippen's death was not a tragic "accident," but was an entirely foreseeable and preventable tragedy. The (very simple) way to make such races much safer is to MANDATE a minimum fluid intake at mandatory hydration stations.  

- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA

On Nov 1, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Vito Bialla wrote:

Hi all

Just read through all this and have a short comment if it adds value. I’ve done events in hot and cold.

Badwater twice where you run 40 hours plus in 125 degree’s and swimming in the SF bay as cold as 48 degree’s.

I think the colder swims are hardest but don’t effect us physically unless you stay in a stupid amount of time ( say over 90 min at that temp) . The lure of the sauna always calls us out well before we go too crazy. I don’t think hot or cold kills you. It can be many things heart attack, getting trampled by a racer , swallow water then drown and more. First twenty min at Ironman swim is usually hand to hand combat, can be quite dangerous.

Brian Maxwell founder of Power Bar was a healthy former 2:14 marathoner. He still ran every day went to the Post office after an 8 mile run and dropped dead while waiting in line.

Every death is obviously tragic but I wouldn’t focus on trying to make new rules limiting running or swimming in certain temperatures.

More cyclists’ get killed by cars and trucks then swimmers drown for whatever reason.

We take risks every day the minute we walk out the door.

This is a fabulous sport and I would love to see it continue to grow as it is.

Vito Bialla www.nighttrainswimmers.org

 

 

 

---

From: Steven Munatones [mailto:head...@10Kswim.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 2:15 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Cc: 'Shelley Taylor-Smith'; 'sid cassidy'; ch...@archonomy.biz; 'Jen Schumacher'; 'Laurin Weisenthal'; 'Larry Weisenthal'; 'John Dussliere'; 'Christopher labianco'; 'JonesEney Jones';sakura....@googlemail.com; Bonnie Ford; 'Karen Reeder'; JWMS...@aol.com; Karen Throsby
Subject: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature - discussions continue

 

Kurt,

 

Attached is a water temperature perception scale that I worked on with a few other marathon swimmers (noted in the document).  The scale is only meant as a guideline and was based on our personal experiences as marathon swimmers, but it is obviously skewed to our cold-water experiences.  With the tragedy in Dubai, we would like to further develop the scale on the higher (i.e., warmer) end.  I sent this subjective scale to a few physicians with my suggestions for the higher end, but I strongly believe much more research is needed in our sport on this issue (refer tohttp://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/10/open-water-swimming-research-where-is.html).

 

Please feel free to make suggestions on this subjective scale – which is also posted at http://www.openwatersource.com/cold--warm-water-acclimatization.html.  Please understand the scale is only meant as a guideline for marathon swimmers, coaches, parents and race directors.  It is not based on scientific research.  Please feel free to send to your colleagues and friends in the medical and scientific communities who also are open water swimmers.  I have read a lot of research on warm-weather conditions performed on and with marathon runners, triathletes and cyclists, but our environment is so different from these land-based activities, that I believe we need our own sport-specific research conducted on not only elite athletes, but also athletes of all ages and abilities.  

 

To address your question below, the suggested lower limit of 16°C is, according to my understanding, based on the general consensus of experienced open water swimming people and not based on peer-reviewed scientific research.  I could be very wrong on this.  However, Shelley Taylor-Smith and Sid Cassidy who are cc’ed on this email can confirm this for us. 

 

Also, if you want to review the rules of the sport, you can also go here: http://www.openwatersource.com/open-water-rules.html.

 

Steven Munatones

 

 

 

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Thiel
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:02 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

 

Hi All,

 

I have just recently joined this group and unfortunately my first post is brought about by the death of a swimmer I know and had hoped to know better in this next year and for years to come.  To all who are suffering grief at the death of Fran, but most especially for Fran’s Mom, may you find solace in the goodness of time.

I believe all of you have helped me reach the following conclusions:

We need better research to understand what happens to the core temperature of a swimmer given water temperature and level of effort over known periods of time.

 

We as a group need to call for the immediate research gained on “wired” swimmers in the flume from a varied sample of ages/competition levels/distances/temperature/and for both genders.  I’m certain we have experts in the field of Sports Medicine who are capable of this kind of research and  I hope they have already been tasked by USAS to get to work on this ASAP.

 

 I have not found a good body of information to act as a baseline on which we could build.  Has anyone?  We need to find out what Medical Examiners know are core temperatures that kill/debilitate so that we can make sense out of what the flume data tells us happens to the swimmer’s core temperature over various conditions for the various subjects.

 

We need to have a suggested upper limit based on science just as we have a suggested lower temperature of 60F/16C based on science…it is based on solid science isn’t it?

 

Kurt Thiel

Potomac Open Water Swim     

 

From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com [mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of SF Bay Swimmer
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:14 PM
To: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

 

And, I guess I'll toss out my thoughts as well but from the opposite end of the spectrum.  Bottom line - I would hate to see specific temperature limits set at either end - hot or cold.

 

Here in San Francisco, the water temperature is generally in the mid-50's (12 - 13 C).  While people can offset the effects of the cold by wearing wetsuits, members of both the Dolphin & South End Rowing Clubs generally eschew wetsuits, instead opting to acclimate their bodies to cold water.  In the past, there has been discussion among some associated with the myriad Alcatrazevents to require the use of wetsuits thinking that swimming without them is exceptionally dangerous and risky (something the members of both clubs have disproved).  And while each event has a non wetsuit division, most Alcatraz race directors do, in no uncertain terms, encourage people to properly acclimate to cold water before attempting the swim.

[John Dussliere]

Just as tbe NFL is experiencing a drastic increase in injuries; international open water swimming has experienced it's first true trajedy. 

The present level of athletes involved are now far better than the rules we have to provide for their safety. 

Every facet of the sport should be thoroughly inspected and rethought. 

These high performance athletes are not going to adjust their efforts based on the conditions. Nor should they be asked to do so. 

Then, going forward, we must all demand that the new standards we establish are adhered to without compromise. 

Every national and international race I attended as a coach leading into and including the Olympic Games included a technical meeting. At every technical meeting we were told of the compromises to the athletes safety in the availability to hydrate(lack of single or multiple feeding docks) or lack of supervision on the course.  

There was always a reason given that had to do with lack of funding or lack of knowledge on the race hosts part. We argued until we finally got through to the organizing committee on the night before the race to add a second feeding station in Beijing. 

We have to change this culture of the inmates running the asylum.  

There are so many well planned, well supervised well executed swims available. There are also alot of events that have just been lucky and not had a tragedy take place yet. 

My challenge is to all who organize events to please leave our egos at the door as we progress toward the safest environment possible for our fitness, competitive, and international level swimmers. 

I hope this is received in the very positive and motivating vein it is meant. 

 I spent the weekend in Conshohocken  Pennsylvania saying goodbye to a great young man. It was an overwhelming experience. We laughed, cried, and mourned the loss of the best in our sport and more importantly one of the best examples of what a great person swimming produces. 

Fran is at rest, we cannot be. 

Thank you in advance,

John

John D Dussliere

Think Olympic Every Day

...from my iphone 

[Steven Munatones]

Jose,

Thank you very much for your information and input.

The GPS devices that you mention below are not placed on the swimmers, but
rather placed on their escort boats. When the escort boat (or kayak) is
near the swimmer, this works out well as the signal is generally detected
every 10 minutes or so. The problems are that (a) anything can happen
within those 10 minutes, (b) sometimes the technology does not work well
over water.

The RFID tags are also used among the open water swimming world as you
mention so that we know what happens when the athletes cross certain
checkpoints along the course. The problems encountered here again, as with
GPS devices, are (a) anything can happen within those checkpoints, and (b)
sometimes the technology does not work, and (c) sometimes when the athlete's
legs or hands are in the water, the signal is not received. Additionally,
with some RFID readers, the signal cannot be read if the athlete has the
RFID placed under his/her wetsuit. The neoprene interferes with the signal.

So there are technologies out there, but there are still significant
limitations. At the end of the day at the current time, it appears the best
alternative is the human eye (i.e., officials, staff, lifeguards or
volunteers) out on the water with the athletes.

However, companies like Powerhouse Timing and other timing companies are out
there pushing the envelope and trying to figure out the best means to
continually keep track of athletes out in the water. Powerhouse Timing was
the first company that provided split timing for professional marathon swims
and provided split timing at the USA Swimming national championships, 2010
Pan Pacific Swimming Championships, 2010 World Open Water Swimming
Championships and the 2010 FINA World Cup events in Canada. The split
timing enabled the organizers to check the athletes at specific points along
the course.

The other alternative is to do what many marathon swimmers do and that is to
place GPS units on top of their head underneath their swim caps.

FYI -
http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/04/closer-calls-in-open-wat
er-swimming.html

Steven

-----Original Message-----
From: openwater-r...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:openwater-r...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jose Ferreira
Pinto
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:05 AM
To: Open Water Race Directors

Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

--

[John Kenny]

Hello Steve et al,

Ironically, 10/23/10 was my wedding date - a date which I'll never
forget. This summer, I did a fair amount of training with Fran and he
was in exceptional shape all season as shown by his race results.
Ultimately, as an endurance athlete, the winner of the race is often
the person who can endure and ignore the most pain. I have not read
any of the first hand accounts of this race, but what I do know is
that the conditions in the water led to the shocking, tragic death of
Fran Crippen. My heart goes out to his family and close friends. The
swimming community has lost a great talent and a great person.

I just wanted to make a few comments on the topic proposed. For those
who don't know me, I am a former national team member who specialized
in 25Ks and I currently compete as a pro triathlete. I have a good
bit of experience in both hot and cold swims in addition to primarily
hot weather triathlons.

The first point I'd like to make is that temperature perception (and
susceptibility to change in core temperature) strongly depends on body
type and acclimation. Lewis Pugh can swim great distances with water
in the 30s, but most swimmers wouldn't dare dive off an iceberg. Many
elite triathletes have a negligible amount of body fat and will shiver
if they stay in 75F water for 30 minutes. Regardless of genetics, all
athletes have the ability to acclimate to both hot and cold through
proper training. For us to neglect this and only allow racing between
72-75F would go against everything that OWS represents. Competing in
tough conditions is part of our sport.

As governing bodies, we need to determine what is an acceptable amount
of risk. Most would agree that racing 10Ks with water temperatures of
50F or 90F is not an acceptable amount of risk. Personally, I think
60F is an appropriate low end number as the rule reads. I believe
that the 78F number that one poster said is much too conservative. As
Karen Reeder mentioned, a 78F ocean does feel like a 80F lake, but
this leaves us in the same realm as the pool swimmers. I believe that
the acceptable cutoff should be in the 84F range, with contingencies
such as air temperature. Further research is certainly required on
this topic. FYI, the International Triathlon Union (ITU) has
regulations regarding air/water temperature and when a wetsuit shall
be legal. I'm not sure where to find these exact rules, but I'm sure
Steve will find them.

Another poster mentioned an Australian race with a super-heated lake.
I competed in the 1999 Pan Pacs with ~50F air, 75F water. In this
case, the water temperature has much higher weight on the "real feel"
temperature, but I think the air temperature may have made it feel
2-4F cooler.

Finally, I want to mention a personal anecdote. One year, I swam in
the US Nationals in Ft. Myers, FL in June. The temperature in the
gulf was 86F and the back bays were recorded at 88-90F. That could
have the most miserable 25K I ever swam. During this race, I was
severely dehydrated - much like the rest of the racers. When I
finished, I was immediately interviewed regarding my qualification for
the Worlds and then I was drug tested. I was not given any fluid by
race organizers, nor was I given a medical check. If I was, they
surely would have given me IVs. I did mention this, but these
complaints often fall on deaf ears.

Prior to ~2005, the 10K national races used to allow a kayaker for
every participant, which I thought was a good policy at the time for
multiple reasons. When OW was announced as an Olympic event, the
fields got tougher and more aggressive. At this time, FINA switched
to the current "rowing basin" format where feeding docks were
stationary on the course. With this change, personal escorts
basically disappeared only to be replaced by official boats and media
boats. At the time, this seemed necessary for OWS to get the Olympic
bid. In my opinion, this is a no brainer. They need to have kayaks
and/or other escort crafts on the course for safety reasons. This
should have been the case all along and it's unfortunate that it
requires a tragedy like this for us to realize such an obvious point.
Hopefully race organizers will learn from this mistake.

Thanks for reading and train safe,
-John Kenny

> FYI -http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/04/closer-calls-in-o...

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/openwater-racedirectors?hl=en?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ignacio Martinez Sela]

If I don´t mistake, to put a boat for each swimmer is ot allowed for races of 10 kms. or less. However, for distances greater than 10 kms. is strictly required.

 Initially I think to put kayaks for each participant is an appropriate measure if it comes to give greater security to competitor. At the same time I think that this can dramatically reduce the visibility of the race and its spectacle.

Although a somewhat immediate solution, may be to put kayaks for every swimmer in the most extreme temperature ranges within the legal intervals regardless of how far we are planning the course.

For example, in cold water would be prudent to put kayaks if the water temperature ranges from 60F (16 º C) to 64F (17.8 º C).
In hot water if the ceiling was 84F, it would seem logical to have personal kayaks in the range of 79F (26.1 º C) - 84 (28.9 º C). This measure would apply even in races of 5 km. exclusively as a security measure.

Applying this, we could avoid the suspension of certain races due to weather conditions, warn competitors that the conditions are going to be hard (either due to excessive heat or cold) before the start, and especially to increase security competitors, which is the real goal we all seek. We can think of doing a parallel street of boats about 300 meters from the finish to make a clean, exciting & fair arrival, like in cycling happens with cars, considering that in the final section our swimmers are already sufficiently monitored.

Greetings to all

[jkenn...@gmail.com]

Hi Keith,
Thanks for your comments. I agree with your assessment that the tolerance for risk is different for an individual than it is as a race director. As a professional engineer, I have designed many projects with safety features designed to protect people against their own stupidity. Having a certain amount of familiarity and comfort with this risk makes an individual less likely to heed certain safety warnings. Engineers run red lights, doctors smoke, etc. etc.

With respect to your comment about the boats, I have swum in many international races where each swimmer in a 25K got their own power boat. I've seen a power boat driver split a pack of 20 in half by cutting through the middle. Certainly this is not our goal. Perhaps kayaks and other non-prop powered boats are reasonable alternatives. When only powerboats are available, they should keep a certain distance until they are needed.

www.acjohnkenny.com

---

From: Keith Bell <kb...@austin.rr.com>

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:08:38 -0600

To: John Kenny<jkenn...@gmail.com>

Cc: <openwater-r...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Maximum Allowable Water Temperature

John,

Just a few comments:

The risk factor seems way different to me as a swimmer than it does as a race director.  I'm willing to make the decision for myself as to the risks.  When Jim McConica and I trained together, we would occasionally swim in the Pacific unescorted (except by each other) out to, around, and back from a barge anchored about a mile and a half from shore. I knew the risks and opted to do it.  But there is no way I could responsibly put on a race that way.

At my lake house, I routinely swim alone.  Boats and PWCs are huge dangers.  Often I drag a buoy to help to be seen.  Sometimes I tow a kayak.  (Sometimes I tie a blow-up plastic man sitting erect in my kayak to aid my chances of being seen.  See a pic of this here: http://keithbell.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/no-im-not-sneaking-into-the-hov-lane/)  Then, of course, there are times when others swim with me or Sandy kayaks while I swim, then hops in with me and one of us drags the kayak.  But again, boats and PWCs remain huge risks.  I wouldn't put on a race without more coverage than that.

As race directors, we're not making decisions on what we're willing to risk as swimmers.  And, although I think a swimmer has a great deal of responsibility for deciding which race he enters, for which race he is prepared (and how well prepared he is), and how much risk he is willing to take; as race directors we are charged with the safety of all participants.

We can tell them they shouldn't enter if they are healthy, comfortable with finishing the race in a reasonable time, and prepared for the conditions; but we can't assure they are.  As race directors, we can't know they have heeded our warnings.  And, no matter what, in our litigious society, –  well, you know.

There are some standards for cold water set for some races.  I believe, in many ways, racing in hot water is much more dangerous and much more difficult to recognize and cure problems when they occur.

I don't have all the answers, but we do avoid hot water (and it is a huge factor in the decision as to when we schedule our races), especially for long races.  We sometimes require escort crafts (boats for our relay race (in which we additionally encourage a kayak escort as well) and personal escort kayaks for some races.  We always have at least one safety boat. 

On the other hand, I believe that other than non-swimmers (or very poor swimmers), unrelated medical emergencies, and hot water; my biggest safety concern is often not only from water craft that might enter our race course in spite of the efforts of control boats, but from our safety water craft.  But that's a huge and different dilemna. 

Keith

Dr. Keith Bell, President

American Swimming Association

in...@americanswimmingassociation.com

www.americanswimmingassociation.com

(512) 327-2260

[Keith Bell]

Hi John,

We need at least one power boat to keep other boats outside our courses, usually a police boat or lake patrol boat).  Except in our relay, we uses kayak escorts, if we mandate escorts, and always have safety kayaks along the sides and back of the courses.  The relay, of course, is required to transport the rest of the relay team while one swimmer is in the water.  We do like to have at least that one boat on hand in case we need to transport someone to shore quickly.  We don't want that boat to rush to aid, we want kayaks to do that and then get the boat carefully over to board the swimmer.  We make sure our boats get strict instructions about keeping the boats, and the waves,  and especially the fumes they put out, away from the swimmers.  We don't allow drafting, which of course, among other things, isn't as likely to put bunches of swimmers in harms way at once.

[Meenakshi Pahuja]

thanks for sharing the link keith..

Regards

Meenakshi

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Keith Bell <kb...@austin.rr.com> wrote:

John,

Just a few comments:

The risk factor seems way different to me as a swimmer than it does as a race director.  I'm willing to make the decision for myself as to the risks.  When Jim McConica and I trained together, we would occasionally swim in the Pacific unescorted (except by each other) out to, around, and back from a barge anchored about a mile and a half from shore. I knew the risks and opted to do it.  But there is no way I could responsibly put on a race that way.

At my lake house, I routinely swim alone.  Boats and PWCs are huge dangers.  Often I drag a buoy to help to be seen.  Sometimes I tow a kayak.  (Sometimes I tie a blow-up plastic man sitting erect in my kayak to aid my chances of being seen.  See a pic of this here: http://keithbell.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/no-im-not-sneaking-into-the-hov-lane/)  Then, of course, there are times when others swim with me or Sandy kayaks while I swim, then hops in with me and one of us drags the kayak.  But again, boats and PWCs remain huge risks.  I wouldn't put on a race without more coverage than that.

As race directors, we're not making decisions on what we're willing to risk as swimmers.  And, although I think a swimmer has a great deal of responsibility for deciding which race he enters, for which race he is prepared (and how well prepared he is), and how much risk he is willing to take; as race directors we are charged with the safety of all participants.

We can tell them they shouldn't enter if they are healthy, comfortable with finishing the race in a reasonable time, and prepared for the conditions; but we can't assure they are.  As race directors, we can't know they have heeded our warnings.  And, no matter what, in our litigious society, –  well, you know.

There are some standards for cold water set for some races.  I believe, in many ways, racing in hot water is much more dangerous and much more difficult to recognize and cure problems when they occur.

I don't have all the answers, but we do avoid hot water (and it is a huge factor in the decision as to when we schedule our races), especially for long races.  We sometimes require escort crafts (boats for our relay race (in which we additionally encourage a kayak escort as well) and personal escort kayaks for some races.  We always have at least one safety boat. 

On the other hand, I believe that other than non-swimmers (or very poor swimmers), unrelated medical emergencies, and hot water; my biggest safety concern is often not only from water craft that might enter our race course in spite of the efforts of control boats, but from our safety water craft.  But that's a huge and different dilemna. 

Keith

Dr. Keith Bell, President

American Swimming Association

in...@americanswimmingassociation.com

www.americanswimmingassociation.com

(512) 327-2260

On Nov 5, 2010, at 10:53 PM, John Kenny wrote:

--
--

Thanks and Regards

Meenakshi Pahuja

 

Assistant Professor in Physical Education
&
Programme Officer Alumna Relations
Lady Shri Ram College
9811093500

*Medallist at 10th Asia Pacific Age Group Aquatic Meet held at Pusan, South Korea,1996
*First one from Delhi to swim successfully Lake Zurich, 2007
*First one from Delhi to attempt Great English Channel, 2008
*First Indian to Successfully swim 5 lakes in 5 days -Tex Robertson High Land lakes Challenge, 2010

(Lake Buchanan, Inks Lake, Lake LBJ, Lake Marble Falls & Lake Travis)

-President, Alumni Association of IGIPESS