UDID2 and identity theft

[Gérard Escande]

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Hi,

I'm curious about OpenUDC, and somewhat afraid that the UDID2 could be
used as a data source in view of an identity theft, if it is widely
made available (through PGP key servers).

In France (and may be some other countries), name + birthdate +
birthplace can be used by a thief, pretending that he has lost his
official ID, to get new ID with the stollen identity, and then borrow
real money (not virtual at all) for which the victim would be held
accountable...
Following paper (in french) depicts this risk:
http://www.lepoint.fr/chroniqueurs-du-point/laurence-neuer/comment-se-proteger-des-usurpations-d-identite-06-10-2011-1381542_56.php

Can't the UDID2 be made harder agaisnt identity theft, by hashing at
least birthplace and day of month (i.e. leave month and year in clear,
to distinguish between homonyms)?
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[Stéphane Laborde]

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Hi G�rard,

Are you a software developper ?

Le 04/01/2014 17:56, G�rard Escande a �crit :

> Hi,
>
> I'm curious about OpenUDC, and somewhat afraid that the UDID2 could
> be used as a data source in view of an identity theft, if it is
> widely made available (through PGP key servers).
>
> In France (and may be some other countries), name + birthdate +
> birthplace can be used by a thief, pretending that he has lost his
> official ID, to get new ID with the stollen identity, and then
> borrow real money (not virtual at all) for which the victim would
> be held accountable... Following paper (in french) depicts this
> risk:
> http://www.lepoint.fr/chroniqueurs-du-point/laurence-neuer/comment-se-proteger-des-usurpations-d-identite-06-10-2011-1381542_56.php
>
> Can't the UDID2 be made harder agaisnt identity theft, by hashing
> at least birthplace and day of month (i.e. leave month and year in
> clear, to distinguish between homonyms)?
>
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[Gérard Escande]

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Hi Stéphane,
I'm not software developper.


"Stéphane Laborde" <gal...@glibre.org> a écrit :

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>Hi Gérard,

>
>Are you a software developper ?

- --
Envoyé de mon téléphone Android avec K-9 Mail. Excusez la brièveté.
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[jbar]

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As the paper said, there is already a bunch of way to retrieve name +
birthdate + birthplace on almost anybody.

So that the udid2 provide one more way to get them won't increase a
problem which didn't concern OpenUDC. Moreover, if more people did use
OpenPGP and moreover again with an udid2 inside, such identity thief
may surely become harder.

NB: It is more complicated to stole a private key + its passphrase, that
to use the identity of somebody u don't even know. Though, as people are
not all IT security tech, it will be preferable to store the private
keys on smart cards rather that on a f... microsoft or apple product, or
even Linux if you a not enough aware with security. Those OpenPGP
smartcard already exist, we just miss efforts,
softwares, and maybe companies, to use them.

> --
> OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend Crypto-Currencies.
>
> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home: https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat: open...@muc.jappix.com.
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openudc+u...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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[Gérard ESCANDE]

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Hi Jean-Jacques,

The problem indirectly concerns OpenUDC:
The difference with "traditional" ways to retrieve
birthdate+birthplace (garbage search...) is that with UDID2 databases,
this could be done automatically at a large scale. Going to UDID2
could represent a change of order of magnitude for the identity theft
risk.
Fear to increase this risk is (in my view) a serious concern against
feeling confortable to play with OpenUDC.
Why would I increase my real world risks to become an OpenUDC user?
How many potential OpenUDC users will think similarly and stay away?

On 05/01/2014 23:30, jbar wrote:
> As the paper said, there is already a bunch of way to retrieve name
> + birthdate + birthplace on almost anybody.
>
> So that the udid2 provide one more way to get them won't increase
> a problem which didn't concern OpenUDC. Moreover, if more people
> did use OpenPGP and moreover again with an udid2 inside, such
> identity thief may surely become harder.
>
> NB: It is more complicated to stole a private key + its passphrase,
> that to use the identity of somebody u don't even know. Though, as
> people are not all IT security tech, it will be preferable to store
> the private keys on smart cards rather that on a f... microsoft or
> apple product, or even Linux if you a not enough aware with
> security. Those OpenPGP smartcard already exist, we just miss
> efforts, softwares, and maybe companies, to use them.
>
>

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[Stéphane Laborde]

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G�rard, OpenUDC list is for software developers only who want to
contribute to OpenUDC as designed by jbar. You should start another
list elsewhere to discuss about your fears.

Quickly : what you misundestand is that with an OpenUDC key you only
are creator of UDC money units that's all. You can then exchange them
later with anything you can to make anonymous economical acts.

So you stay anonymous if want to, this is a totally independant thing.

Please don't write to the list if it is not for direct contributions
to OpenUDC. You have some podcasts / blogs / forum elsewhere to learn
more or start discussions.

Thank you.

Galuel

Le 07/01/2014 21:52, G�rard ESCANDE a �crit :

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[jbar]

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You really think that today retrieving birthdate+birthplace at large
scale isn't already possible for anybody who really want it ! ?

The bug is not in in the UDID2, the bug is that today there are still
pre-historical procedures who don't have been updated with some
external worldwide change, like computer sciences or Internet.

Those procedures have to be updated, and I won't wait them to
evolve myself.

(Note: For most of those procedures, it seems it doesn't imply lot of
efforts, even if using OpenPGP, which is then quite expensive in
efforts, may be good idea).

You may prefer the "(good) old time", but as you live, the time go
by...

> --
> OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend Crypto-Currencies.
>
> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home: https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat: open...@muc.jappix.com.
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openudc+u...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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[Arnaud Faisan]

I agree with Gerard on the fact that some people might be reluctant to put some identifying information in public databases. As Kim Cameron have written (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/2006.07.7laws.aspx) when talking about his Laws of Identity:
"Digital identity systems must be designed so the disclosure of identifying information is limited to parties having a necessary and justifiable place in a given identity relationship."

Arnaud Faisan

[Stéphane Laborde]

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This is totally independant thing of OpenUDC.

People is free to choose which sort of digital designed system he
joins or not.

For instance if one people whant to join a free money based system he
joins an OpenUDC money system, or any other money system he chooses
that is based on a space-time universal dividend symetric founded
money whith knwon growth in free code.

If people feel happy and confortable to use a non-free money system
then he can have very good reasons to use it, and so he uses it.

And so man is free.

There is absolutely "no law" and "must do laws" at all, somme human
could decide, or some free human could consider he must follow without
it's own view accepting or rejecting it.

Here we develop OpenUDC free money system.

Elsewhere other men decide to developp, adopt and use freely what they
have decided to.

Le 08/01/2014 17:28, Arnaud Faisan a �crit :

> I agree with Gerard on the fact that some people might be reluctant
> to put some identifying information in public databases. As Kim
> Cameron have written
> (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/2006.07.7laws.aspx)
> when talking about his Laws of Identity: "Digital identity systems
> must be designed so the disclosure of identifying information is
> limited to parties having a necessary and justifiable place in a
> given identity relationship."
>
>
> On 8 January 2014 08:07, jbar <jeanjacqu...@gmail.com

> <mailto:jeanjacqu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> You really think that today retrieving birthdate+birthplace at
> large scale isn't already possible for anybody who really want it !
> ?
>
> The bug is not in in the UDID2, the bug is that today there are
> still pre-historical procedures who don't have been updated with
> some external worldwide change, like computer sciences or
> Internet.
>
> Those procedures have to be updated, and I won't wait them to
> evolve myself.
>
> (Note: For most of those procedures, it seems it doesn't imply lot
> of efforts, even if using OpenPGP, which is then quite expensive
> in efforts, may be good idea).
>
> You may prefer the "(good) old time", but as you live, the time go
> by...
>
>
>
>

> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:52:11 +0100 G�rard ESCANDE
> <gerard.e...@laposte.net

> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend
> Crypto-Currencies.
>
> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat:

> open...@muc.jappix.com <mailto:open...@muc.jappix.com>. --- You

> received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "OpenUDC" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
> receiving emails from it, send an email to
> openudc+u...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:openudc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>. For more options,

> visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
>
> -- Arnaud Faisan
>

> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend
> Crypto-Currencies.
>
> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat:
> open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message because you
> are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group. To unsubscribe
> from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
> openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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[Arnaud Faisan]

Stephane, did you read these "Laws of Identity"?

On 8 January 2014 17:01, Stéphane Laborde <gal...@glibre.org> wrote:

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This is totally independant thing of OpenUDC.

People is free to choose which sort of digital designed system he
joins or not.

For instance if one people whant to join a free money based system he
joins an OpenUDC money system, or any other money system he chooses
that is based on a space-time universal dividend symetric founded
money whith knwon growth in free code.

If people feel happy and confortable to use a non-free money system
then he can have very good reasons to use it, and so he uses it.

And so man is free.

There is absolutely "no law" and "must do laws" at all, somme human
could decide, or some free human could consider he must follow without
it's own view accepting or rejecting it.

Here we develop OpenUDC free money system.

Elsewhere other men decide to developp, adopt and use freely what they
have decided to.

> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:52:11 +0100 Gérard ESCANDE
> <gerard.e...@laposte.net

--

Arnaud Faisan

[Stéphane Laborde]

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Hash: SHA256

Le 08/01/2014 18:11, Arnaud Faisan a �crit :

> Stephane, did you read these "Laws of Identity"?

You don't have time in one life to read what all man write.

I don't ask to humanity if it read the Relative Money Theory.

It's not a good idea to think "I first will read all that every human
write, and then perhaps I'll do some things".

When a man decided to do something he does it. If he decides to read
he reads. If he decides to stop doing anything he stops.

Here we develop OpenUDC free money based system.

Elsewhere people do other things.

This is good.

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[Arnaud Faisan]

And here I am trying to help ... OpenUDC!

What I was saying is NOT totally independent from OpenUDC. OpenUDC contains a mechanism to identify individuals which is being managed by using OpenPGP. Identifying people is an important enough concept to be taken seriously.

I had a first feeling that OpenUDC coupled with UDID2 was not the best way to identify people, feeling confirmed after reading the Laws of Identity.

As a software developer convinced by the underlying concept of OpenUDC (Théorie Relative de la Monnaie), I am trying to highlight what I think is a not-so-good idea that could push back non-technical and/or non-TRM-aware people from using OpenUDC. Now, I guess everyone here is a free man, and able to ignore what I write, so do you.

On 8 January 2014 17:17, Stéphane Laborde <gal...@glibre.org> wrote:

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--
OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend Crypto-Currencies.

homepage: http://openudc.org  ---  git's home: https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git  ---  Multi User Chat: open...@muc.jappix.com.
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--

Arnaud Faisan

[jbar]

I read this article and:

1- It comes from Microsoft, and even if it looks informative only, I
don't know why, I feel it's a beginning to sell me some white elephant.

2- It this article Kim C. doesn't care about unicity (to rely one
individual with only one identity) which is required to fairly apply
any universal monetary dividend.

3- UDID2 isn't real managed by nodes who mainly play only with keys,
but only by the community before putting new keys in the
currency/system.

OpenPGP already provide a good and "universal" identifying system.
Securing birthnames and adding birthdate + a fuzzy birthplace trough
the udid2 is just the simplest way to provide the unicity feature.

[Stéphane Laborde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Au fait, je pensais r�cemment � la date de d�c�s.

En effet apr�s le d�c�s, la cl� n'est plus valide, mais les unit�s
mon�taires cr��es par elle si, ce qui est v�rifiable par encadrement
des dates des unit�s v�rifi�es.

Donc il semble qu'il soit n�cessaire d'y penser !?

Le 09/01/2014 05:15, jbar a �crit :

> I read this article and:
>
> 1- It comes from Microsoft, and even if it looks informative only,
> I don't know why, I feel it's a beginning to sell me some white
> elephant.
>
> 2- It this article Kim C. doesn't care about unicity (to rely one
> individual with only one identity) which is required to fairly
> apply any universal monetary dividend.
>
> 3- UDID2 isn't real managed by nodes who mainly play only with
> keys, but only by the community before putting new keys in the
> currency/system.
>
> OpenPGP already provide a good and "universal" identifying system.
> Securing birthnames and adding birthdate + a fuzzy birthplace
> trough the udid2 is just the simplest way to provide the unicity
> feature.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 17:11:24 +0000 Arnaud Faisan
> <arnaud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stephane, did you read these "Laws of Identity"?
>>
>>

>> On 8 January 2014 17:01, St�phane Laborde <gal...@glibre.org>

>> wrote:
>>
> This is totally independant thing of OpenUDC.
>
> People is free to choose which sort of digital designed system he
> joins or not.
>
> For instance if one people whant to join a free money based system
> he joins an OpenUDC money system, or any other money system he
> chooses that is based on a space-time universal dividend symetric
> founded money whith knwon growth in free code.
>
> If people feel happy and confortable to use a non-free money
> system then he can have very good reasons to use it, and so he uses
> it.
>
> And so man is free.
>
> There is absolutely "no law" and "must do laws" at all, somme
> human could decide, or some free human could consider he must
> follow without it's own view accepting or rejecting it.
>
> Here we develop OpenUDC free money system.
>
> Elsewhere other men decide to developp, adopt and use freely what
> they have decided to.
>

> Le 08/01/2014 17:28, Arnaud Faisan a �crit :

>>>>> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:52:11 +0100 G�rard ESCANDE

>>> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal
>>> Dividend Crypto-Currencies.
>>>
>>> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
>>> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User
>>> Chat: open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message
>>> because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC"
>>> group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>> from it, send an email to
>>> openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Arnaud Faisan
>>
>> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend
>> Crypto-Currencies.
>>
>> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
>> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat:
>> open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message because
>> you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group. To
>> unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more
>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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[Stéphane Laborde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I come back to english (I answer too much mails in too much languages !)

I agree with jbar on all points. And I would add "and what Richard
Stallman say ?", and then I don't choose because Microsoft or Stallman
or no one else say something, I choose when I've understood by myself
what I follow and what I don't follow.

It doesn't mean you cannot developp a different DIS than OpenUDC, or
complete it. But here we developp OpenUDC on the basis it is yet
developped by jbar. That's what we do.

Elsewhere, for instance in the uCoin project you will developp as it
is designed on the basis yet developped by Cedric.

And this is good. You are free.

Le 09/01/2014 05:15, jbar a �crit :

> I read this article and:
>
> 1- It comes from Microsoft, and even if it looks informative only,
> I don't know why, I feel it's a beginning to sell me some white
> elephant.
>
> 2- It this article Kim C. doesn't care about unicity (to rely one
> individual with only one identity) which is required to fairly
> apply any universal monetary dividend.
>
> 3- UDID2 isn't real managed by nodes who mainly play only with
> keys, but only by the community before putting new keys in the
> currency/system.
>
> OpenPGP already provide a good and "universal" identifying system.
> Securing birthnames and adding birthdate + a fuzzy birthplace
> trough the udid2 is just the simplest way to provide the unicity
> feature.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 17:11:24 +0000 Arnaud Faisan
> <arnaud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stephane, did you read these "Laws of Identity"?
>>
>>

>> On 8 January 2014 17:01, St�phane Laborde <gal...@glibre.org>
>> wrote:
>>

> This is totally independant thing of OpenUDC.
>
> People is free to choose which sort of digital designed system he
> joins or not.
>
> For instance if one people whant to join a free money based system
> he joins an OpenUDC money system, or any other money system he
> chooses that is based on a space-time universal dividend symetric
> founded money whith knwon growth in free code.
>
> If people feel happy and confortable to use a non-free money
> system then he can have very good reasons to use it, and so he uses
> it.
>
> And so man is free.
>
> There is absolutely "no law" and "must do laws" at all, somme
> human could decide, or some free human could consider he must
> follow without it's own view accepting or rejecting it.
>
> Here we develop OpenUDC free money system.
>
> Elsewhere other men decide to developp, adopt and use freely what
> they have decided to.
>

> Le 08/01/2014 17:28, Arnaud Faisan a �crit :

>>>>> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:52:11 +0100 G�rard ESCANDE

>>> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal
>>> Dividend Crypto-Currencies.
>>>
>>> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
>>> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User
>>> Chat: open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message
>>> because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC"
>>> group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>> from it, send an email to
>>> openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Arnaud Faisan
>>
>> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend
>> Crypto-Currencies.
>>
>> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
>> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat:
>> open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message because
>> you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group. To
>> unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more
>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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[Matthieu Vergne]

I have the feeling that people out of the project participate in this mailing list to understand and provide suggestions, while people in the project would prefer to use this mailing list as a technical support interface only. Because I see a lot of answers which can be classified as:

- you are wrong, this is not what we try to do -> go back to the docs and read

- you are wrong, this is not our purpose -> do your own project

I do not remember any suggestion on which someone from OpenUDC said that it could be interesting to consider and should be added to the todo list (at best, a polite "it is interesting but not our problem"). So I think it could be useful to clarify: do OpenUDC people care about suggestions or they just want to implement something they have deep in mind and help people who have technical issues only? I do not say that OpenUDC people are autistic or anything negative, they decide what they want to do with their project. But if it is worth to consider that only specific discussions are expected in this mailing list, making it clear and writing it on the contact page could be relevant, so they do not lose time replying to abstract e-mails that they do not plan to consider.

[Stéphane Laborde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Yes, this is an OpenUDC mailing list about the OpenUDC project which
is a software in development as it has been (very well) designed by
jbar so far. OpenUDC 0.3 is available and now the work is towards
OpenUDC 0.4 see http://www.openudc.org/

If you have propositions to developp for OpenUDC 0.5 or later versions
you should study 0.3 code and 0.4 goals, and can propose precisely
which part you propose to improve, I suppose then it can be analysed
if it is ok with latest version.

To make suggestions or discuss about other subjects you should propose
a forum or a list or a chatroom or whatever elsewhere, with the rules
of discussion you decide.

Please consider we developp software tools here to realise one freedom
money system, that is OpenUDC, not other thing. Thanks.

Le 09/01/2014 20:12, Matthieu Vergne a �crit :

> -- OpenUDC aims to provide a open standard for Universal Dividend
> Crypto-Currencies.
>
> homepage: http://openudc.org --- git's home:
> https://github.com/Open-UDC/open-udc.git --- Multi User Chat:
> open...@muc.jappix.com. --- You received this message because you
> are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenUDC" group. To unsubscribe
> from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
> openudc+u...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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