Function Editor Documentation

[p nelson]

I'm an OpenToonz Noob and at the moment I'm learning about the Function Editor.  As I'm going along I'm writing my own documentation, so I want to get everything right.  I recently downloaded 1.21.

The OpenToonz.pdf documentation file seems to be a step or two behind - the latest one I could find in English seems to be for 1.13   On the GitHub site (https://opentoonz.github.io/e/) it lists some additional documentation in Japanese. 

It says...

The function editor window is divided into three sections. On the left there is the objects/FX tree, on the right top an
area where the curves or the numerical columns are displayed, and on the right bottom an area where the interpolation
of the current transformation segment is displayed.
The tree has two main items, Stage and FX: in the first you can find folders for defined cameras, the table, used pegbars
and columns; in the second you can find folders for each used effect. Each folder contains the related transformation
parameters.

  

... but mine looks like this . . .

... so I'm struggling to match the description to what I'm seeing.  The thing on the left doesn't look like a tree.   Is the documentation wrong and the lower right is the "tree", and if so what is Stage and FX?   It would help a lot if the documentation had more pictures.   Is there more recent documentation than 1.13?

Thanks for any clarifications!

[Jane Eyre]

The function editor is flipped from the description. The actual keyframe data displays on the left. The interpolation settings are on the upper right and tree is on the lower the right. The tree allows access to a couple types of data - normal keyframes and special fx keyframes. There is also a button in the top right of the data area that allows you to open a pop-up window with the curve editor.

Additionally, there is a preference that allows you to set the button to toggle between both windows, or to swap the windows so that the curve editor displays as default & the data opens in a pop-up.

[openanim]

Opentoonz is the open source version of Toonz Harlequin 7.1. Your description corresponds to the function editor as it is in toonz.

Opentonz readjust this (it's not worse imo). but the same applies in both software in almost every case.

You can find the Toonz Harlequin manual on toonz.com or the toonz premium website which is rebrand of harlequin).

You can also download it from this thread at the very bottom https://github.com/opentoonz/opentoonz/issues/1394, Shun-iwasawa has posted a link for the manual. He is a little more illustrious, although he could be a bit more.

[Gabriel Gazzán]

Personally, what resulted more frustrating, at the time I was trying to learn the Function Editor, was that in OpenToonz when you change the interpolation type of a segment or any of its parameters, using the interpolation section (upper right), you have to press the Apply button to make these changes effective.
This is not how most programs work, and is not how Toonz is said to work in the manual either. So currently you are actually mislead in this respect, by this outdated manual

By the way, Stage and FX are simply the names of the two top branches in the tree
where you select what object's parameters you want to see/edit in the left panel.

[Rodney]

Documentation is useful and good but I have to laugh at the endless cycle we go through of requiring/demanding flawless documentation while on the other hand doing the same for new and improved features and workflows.

What many don't realize they are advocating is for one or the other (or even both) to cease.

It's an interesting dilemma but it can help to have a specific goal in mind and then know how to ask questions.

Then the associated answers (at least some of them) will be forthcoming.

I do want to caution everyone though that documentation in the modern age is as an imperfect endeavor as it has ever been before but over reliance on documentation is a empty pit from which we will face endless frustration.  This isn't to suggest documentation isn't important... it's extremely important.  But consider how the process of documentation works and we may realize that by necessity an invention we will always be plagued with incomplete and even inadequate documentation.

So, what do I think is the solution?

There's surely more than one but the first and best line of defense against the beast that is documentation is to learn how to target goals and ask specific questions in an appropriate forum... like the OpenToonz forum we find ourselves  in currently.  :)

For those that do rely on documentation... more power to you!

Continue as I do to devour the content but then develop your innate ability to Q&A and extend beyond that documentation and explore the real world beyond printed word and imagery.   Click a button or two and see what occurs.  Open doors.. close them.  Thrive in the modern world where you too can be free of the promise of a perfectly documented world.

There are other resources as well as the OpenToonz forum... The OpenToonz discord... OT Reddit.... email.... subject matter experts... it's a long list.. never ending, flawed and incomplete but very useful resources never-the-less.

Oh... and something I must learn myself and put into practice... we must learn to document and record everything we do and then share what we learn with others  It's the only way to win the documentation war and secure a lasting documentary peace for the long term.  :)

 

[p nelson]

but the first and best line of defense against the beast that is documentation is to learn how to target goals and ask specific questions in an appropriate forum

I'm just learning OpenTooz so my "targeted goal" is to learn as much as I can.  

I worked for 35 years as a software developer, in medical products and then in aerospace manufacturing.   Because of the strong safety and security constraints in these industries and because our customers were professionals, not consumers, we always had detailed, up-to-date documentation which would release with the major product-rev. releases.  Dot-releases were only for critical bug fixes we never added new features, so we never needed to update documentation for those.   The products were complex so the user-manuals and training materials like tutorials were at least as big as OpenToonz, so it can be done (albeit, not cheap)

I don't like having to ask every little question here -  I'd rather read tutorials and documentation -  but believe me I have a  lot more questions in the pipeline!

shun-iwasawa wrote to me and said that the OpenToonz documentation hasn't been updated since Harlequin.    I "get" that it's a small team but makes me to ask whether OpenToonz in the best choice for me.  I'm a total noob so I have a long learning curve ahead and I want to invest those years of learning in a professional product that will be around with full support for a long time.

I chose Opentoonz because it has a large suite of features and it integrates bitmap and vector (I expect to mostly use 70/30 bitmap/vector).  But I did NOT choose it for the cost (free).   Is there a professional (paid-licensed) product out there comparable to OpenToonz, with full support and an active user-community?  I went to the website for Toonz Harlequin but their 7.1 product doesn't look like it's been updated since 2014, based on the copyright.   So who are the big players in mixed bitmap/vector (not Flash!) animation?

I'm nervous about investing it in a tool that's only supported by a tiny dedicated team of enthusiasts.    I chose OpenTooz because it was recommended to me, NOT because it's free.   

[p nelson]

There are other resources as well as the OpenToonz forum ... The OpenToonz discord... OT Reddit.... email.... subject matter experts

Could you explain some of these?   What is discord?     The OT Reddit group had four question in the last 10 days and none of them got a response.  The last one to get a response was 13 days ago, so it didn't seem like a good place for questions.  Of the last 20 postings there10 got responses.  Whereas here all my questions have been answered but I have lots of questions and I don't want to wear out my welcome so I'd like to spread it around other OT communities if I can find any.

... and email to whom?

... and who/what are subject matter experts?

  

[Gabriel Gazzán]

OpenToonz documentation is good, it's just getting outdated as the software evolves and improves (fortunately!).

Perhaps it's just about time for the project to make some kind of foundraising effort to undertake the docs update, needed for it to remain relevant.
This should certainly be a less titanic effort than rewriting it all over from scratch.

What others think about it?

[ManongJohn]

This might be a bit off topic for this subject, anyway...

This OT Google group is, I guess, the official forum for the OT community. Since the launch, it is the place noted on the official website for the OT community to get news, ask questions, offer suggestions, submit feature requests and even report problems.

Bug and issues can be reported on Github as well.

Discord (basically a chat server), Reddit and other social sites came about later. They were mostly started by OT users. There are probably other sites I'm not aware of.

The google community is usually watched by developers and probably most OT users. This may not be true of other sites. You are more likely to get answers faster here than anywhere else.

Don't worry about asking too many questions. It's all good in my opinion. Never know who might have discovered something that isn't documented.

For more interactive discussions, I recommend joining the Discord channel (https://discord.gg/hSxGVzX).

As far as as paid software goes, there is Toonz Premium which replaced Toonz Harlequin. Toon Boom, TVPaint and Adobe Animate are other popular paid software. Well, at least these are the ones I've seen a lot of other animators using. 🙂

[joshua shute]

"The OT Reddit group had four questions in the last 10 days and none of them got a response"

2 are videos, not questions, and the other two will be covered in the summary below.

"Of the last 20 postings there, 10 got responses" 

but 6 of the 20 were video links, 1 was a composer  looking for work linking out to another page, and 1 was a question about another program. of the two that haven't yet received a response, 1 was a topic covered heavily on this forum and knowing the OP had an answer I didn't respond, the other has to do with windows machines which are not my domain. so of 20 posts, 12 are opentoonz related questions, 11 are answered and 1 is still unanswered. 92% answered, or 83% depending on how you look at it, is a big jump from 50% answered....... yes, this forum is a lot more active than the reddit forum but there are some helpful folks over there; there's nothing wrong with casting a bigger net to get answers but this forum will likely take care of ya.

----------------

regarding other programs, toonboom harmony is widely used. I switched over from harmony and felt right at home in opentoonz. opentoonz is probably most comparable to harmony's premium version, the most expensive. In the past I have suggested that others use harmony to become familiar with ideas used in opentoonz. toonboom gives you a 3 week free trial for each of their harmony versions so you could learn the ropes for free, stepping up through the program in complexity over 63 days, and then decide if you want to stick with harmony or bring what you've learned over to opentoonz. I was paying $2000 annually for each harmony subscription; compare that to $600 annually for a sub to ALL the adobe creative cloud apps and it become clear that harmony is a little over priced. there are only three harmony features I wish opentoonz had and with the way opentoon is going, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they are implemented. I'm truly impressed with this program and how much has gone into it over the last couple years.

P.S. harmony claims to be the only software to work with both vector and bitmap........ isn't that cute?

P.S.S. even at that price range harmony still crashes if I spend too much time in the drawing tab. no program is perfect.

[Rodney]

RE:  "... I don't want to wear out my welcome..."

You won't.  ;)

The questions you ask... others are too shy or simply unwilling or unable to ask themselves so by asking relevant questions you do us all (as a community) a favor.

@Gab3D said:

"Perhaps it's just about time for the project to make some kind of foundraising effort to undertake the docs update, needed for it to remain relevant.

This should certainly be a less titanic effort than rewriting it all over from scratch."

Paying someone to explore and document their exploration is a useful approach that falls squarely into the Research and Development arena.

I say more power to you but... perhaps I'm jaded... I've been involved with many documentation efforts and while all have very well intented and passionately desired all failed to document everything... and they always will. So as long as folks understand that inevitability... rock on!  I don't want to discourage documentation.. I like documentation.  I'm just adding that general dose of reality because the desire for documentation to solve problems never ends.. never will... we are creatures of habit that never learn even assuming we bother to read said documentation.  ;).

@p nelson bemoaned the fact that activity on the OT Reddit was sparse and uncompelling.

I mention Reddit primarily because someone at one time thought it was a good idea.. .like documentation... and I want to support that effort.

I dropped in to the OT Reddit and answered a few question but it didn't really gel for me and so I tend to focus most of my effort here in the official OT forum and via the OT Discord channel (where live chat gets immediate response and  creative people tend to hang out and share stuff.  @manongjohn posted the link to the discord so I wont repeat it here.  Like all resources (including documentation) the discord channel is useful.  I spend entirely too much time there. ;)

Regarding email... subject matter experts etc... those fall into the category of "if you've got to ask... "

or "If you really need it you'll find it..."  ;)

I share my email freely with those that request it although I don't publish it to keep spam from silly people with too much time on their hands to a minimum.

As for the subject matter experts... the answer to that will largely depend on the subject under consideration of course.

There are subject matter experts for everything... where do you want to start?

While others obviously disagree (as can be seen by the variety of resources available) the first and best place to share information related to OpenToonz is right here in the official OpenToonz forum.  It's not ideal for everything of course but it's a primary resource.

Other quotes:

"I'm nervous about investing it in a tool that's only supported by a tiny dedicated team of enthusiasts. "

Animation itself is something of a niche community of enthusiasts.

It gets even more niche when people start to form sub groups dedicated to specific software... styles and genres of animation.. etc.

The benefit of OpenToonz is that the primary investment is that of personal time... not money... so at least that nervousness need not break the bank.

There will always be some other software out there that someone touts as the going concern.

The good news is that things learned in OpenToonz will apply to other software as long as we don't get too deep into the weeds of software specific bells and whistles and the documented step by step instructions that only apply to that

specific approach.  It'll always be better to be a thinking artist/animator who can leverage the documentation but move beyond that.. so dive in.. make lots and lots of mistakes... and be ready to learn.  Be bold... break stuff! (software that is.. don't actually break stuff in the real world... you'll go to jail!) Don't be too precious with one drawing or project... there's a whole lot more creativity to be found where your initial inspiration compelled you to want that documented evidence in the first place.

and as an aside:  If I had a lot of money to spend I'd likely buy a copy of TVPaint... but I'm very happy with OpenToonz so until there is a compelling need I don't see TVPaint or any other similar 2D animation program stealing my time.  So you guys and gals are stuck with me.  (email available upon request!)  ;)

Disclaimer:  I want to be careful not to disparage other software.  A lot of effort has gone into making a lot of different software and everyone has their favorites.  Having worked with most 2D and 3D software it's largely an apples vs oranges comparison BUT having said that... if we cannot create our animation productions in OpenToonz then something is very wrong with our approach and we need to step back and reassess our priorities.  In my estimation OpenToonz is the best thing going in 2D digital animation and that doesn't diminish the value of any other program one iota.  I simply recommend a full focus on OpenToonz until it is mastered... then apply what is learned to wherever appropriate.  :)

.

[openanim]

Personally, I think you have the right approach. I always start with the manual, then ask for help if needed.

Even if the toonz manual is not identical, it is usable and useful for learning, fundamentals. There is also surely a lot of tutorial available online to accompany you.

And the forum too. You also have the Harlequin Quick Guides to learn by practicing quickly. Paperless and traditional. So basically, it looks like what you are doing right now.

Although I understand that the fact that the manual is not up to date is not the most comfortable.

For the needs you specified, 70/30 for raster and vector. It depends on your expectations ... are you talking about your use or what you expect from the software.

Some software can play with both by being very minimalist on one or the other. Others allow to draw and paint in both choices, but their number becomes very limited.

Opentoonz really does the work in both of them in quite a deep way. And has been enriched compared to its commercial version Toonz Premium also at this level.

So, everything depends on what you want to put in the 70/30. In the simple and free style, Pencil 2D allows to play with bitmap and vectors.

In the middle, you will find drawing or painting software that also offers an animation function, sometimes vector and bitmap, like Clip Studio Paint.

About sofware mentioned above, Harmony premium is probably the closest for both worlds. I used harmony before, and personally it's not nearly as beautiful and powerful as the marketing around it.

Even though the software is very powerful, Opentoonz is a good equivalent in terms of functionality. Tvpaint does not have vector support, it's 100% bitmap.

Even if the software is incredible for the traditional. So, definitely, I recommend opentoonz for the best of both worlds.

And the developers, even if they are small, work a lot to make it more beautiful and it crashes less and improve its functionality.

Like Joshua Shute, I've also had problems with commercial software (harmony / cacani), so everything is not as rosy as that because it a paid software. Even though the documentation is up to date.

P.S. harmony claims to be the only software to work with both vector and bitmap........ isn't that cute?

Did you know that Harmony is the most powerful software in the world ? Did you know that celaction2D is also the most powerful software in the world ? : D

[Rodney]

I find myself wanting to discuss the topic of documentation but am reminded the topic under consideration pertains more to 'the Function Editor' and how it appears, works etc..

For those with a vision for documentation perhaps a dedicated topic can be opened to focus on that subject.

My curiosity is officially captured and I'm more than a little excited to see what success in documentation might look like.

@p nelson,

Have you been able to draw any useful conclusions about the Function Editor with regard to your dive into current documentation?

[joshua shute]

@ rodney, open that can, man. the function editor was just an example but this thread its about documentation.

"So you guys and gals are stuck with me." wouldn't be the same without ya.

"....creative people tend to hang out and share stuff"   SOLD

@openanim  I didn't know that. tied for best!? in the world?!?! I must use them both.

[openanim]

@ Joshua shute

It's really the word-for-word advertising campaign of these two programs, so I wondered which one was really the most powerful and for what purpose ^ _ ^.

More seriously, regarding the documentation, my main brake (and imo I'm not the only one) is that you need to have knowledge in code or html, and about me, I have zero. It's not easy to contribute in this way, for the online manual. If we could write as if we were writing on a classic text editor it would be easier.

[Gabriel Gazzán]

@openanim
I don't know exactly what it takes to contribute to the documentation in its current form, but I agree with you in that it's in the best interest of OT's community that the documentation could be edited by anyone willing to do so, regardless of his/her technical abilities as a developer.

[p nelson]

While investigating alternatives I received an extraordinary email from "Valentina" at the Toonz Premium tech support, who I had contacted to ask about whether there was any sort of online users' community for Toonz Premium.   She said, no, they didn't have one.

I can't imagine using a creative tool without an active online community to share ideas and get suggestions or discuss problems.   I'm active in photography and video-production / film making and Photoshop, Premiere Pro and Avid all have online communities.    I find these extremely valuable to get ideas and suggestions, learn about the latest news, find workarounds for problems, and to share ideas and insights.   User communities are also valuable for a company because they allow a company to monitor user sentiment and find out what features of the product excite or frustrate users, and see what people are doing with the product.  

[openanim]

It may be very naive on my part, but I wondered if the following thing was possible automatically. In the same way that when a  pr is merged, its related issue is closed as well.

Since every time a developer makes an enhancement or creates a new feature, it describes the mechanism of its addition.

So why not link this description directly to a space that would combine these descriptions in a precise and organized way? 

In this way, there will already be a first description of the said functionality or change, in an explicit category, and in the same space, as soon as the PR is merged.

In the case, where a new user, would like to learn Opentoonz, he could then go directly to this manual.

The concept could also be extended to certain issues with an adequate label for the manual for example. To add a note or illustrate with examples.

If this is possible, we can use Github directly, it would make things easier to write, illustrate, etc. Just like when posting an issue.

So in summary:

1- Online creation of a version of the manual that would be categorized into several sections. It would be best to start from the manual that already exists.

2- The manual would be directly related to the merged PRs. And would concern the improvements and new features.

3- Possibilities of also linked issues labeled "manual" so that everyone can improve in a simple way.

Sorry about off topic.

[p nelson]

Technical writing is a serious skill and most people don't have it.   My experience in 40 years as a software developer is that most programmers are terrible writers, so we shouldn't have the coders doing the user documentation.   Also, frankly, most coders would rather code, not write documentation.  

Also, a good user manual has one "voice" - i.e., a consistent style and presentation, consistent use of illustrations, consistent level of depth and examples.   Soi on this project it has to be somebody's role to do the documentation.   That person needs to be a good writer and have domain knowledge, but they don't need to be a coder.    Users or programmers could submit work to her or him, but the writer would rewrite it for consistency and to fix grammar and syntax problems.   On all the projects I've been on the writer works from the spec, but I don't know if OpenToonz has one.

So I don't agree with the idea of random people each writing their own little section of the user manual for users to see.  I think the Open Toonz project needs to find someone to be documentation person, and we can submit stuff to them.  

Good source of information on open source project management:  https://opensource.guide/    (  <-- N.B.   this is a GitHub resource )

 

[Rodney]

@p nelson

If you consider that Digital Video's primary source of income is not from the product itself but from the service and support they provide to production houses/studios and educational organizations it may be easier to see where hosting a community might run at odds with that service and therefore any associated revenue.  This won't make sense to the individual outside of that realm but service and support is where most of the money is in any software endeavor... and where most expenses are incurred if companies aren't careful.  Of course it does make sense that users can and should resolved their own problems wherever possible at the lowest level.

To put it another way, let's say you are involved in a production where you have $15 million to spend.

How likely is it that you will spend a lot of that money in community/users forums?

At that higher production level it might be more likely the investment will fund well experienced personnel and have them directly involved. 

It's interesting to note that Digital Videos support includes time to help the client set up and use OpenToonz .  :)  

[p nelson]

I just interpreted it to mean they had very few users. 

Adobe and Avid both have expensive service and support products ( Adobe Enterprise Support and  Avid Advantage)  but they also had active user communities.   My last software engineering employer had a $25,000/yr support contract for Visual Studio with Microsoft but there are tons of user communities for Microsoft programmers.   The other thing is that many user- communities arise OUTSIDE of corporate sponsorship.    Some of the best Adobe and Microsoft support communities have nothing to do with the company, they just get formed by groups of users, like the OpenToonz Reddit group happened for OT.   But I haven't found even one of those for Toonz Premium, and Digital Video didn't know of any.     And almost all the "how to" videos on YouTube are by Digital Video itself; if it was popular, like Open Toonz, there would be lots of videos made by enthusiasts, like Open Toonz has (and like Adobe and Microsoft and Avid have).     So I think I'll stick with OT because it has signs of life.