Duplicating levels

[Gus]

Hi: I was needing to make changes to a character, in order to have a different version of the character model. So, I  duplicated the vector drawing into another vector level. When I modified this copy, the original drawing was also modified exactly the same. My question: ¿Is it possible to change a copy without affecting the original (or vice versa)?. ¿Is there any other way to duplicate a drawing maintaining the independence between the two images? I would truly appreciate any help.

 

[Rodney]

Yes, this catches almost everyone by surprise.

When we copy a level it remains the same as the original... so it remains a copy no matter how we alter it.

If and when we need to use the original as a basis for another drawing we need to 'clone' it.

The 'Clone' option can be found at the bottom of the main menu under 'Cells'.

Remember that we are cloning cells here so make sure you select the desired cell you want to clone.

There are times when we want to have exact replicas of our original and so I'm glad we have that option but... it sure can be confusing when we think we are altering an unlinked copy but instead altering the original.

In a way the idea of 'cloning' is a proper one in that after an entity is cloned it is then free to change into something else.

Likewise, a 'copy' should (technically speaking) remain a copy and where the original changes so should all other copies.

.

[Gus]

Hi Rodney: ¡Thank you very much for your help!. You gave  me a very thoughtful, detailed answer. I'll try your tip. Tx again, and happy animating! 

[openanim]

You can also use the selection tool to duplicate a drawing without affecting the original. 1/select your drawing 2/ copy/paste in other level.

[Gus]

Hi Openanim: ¡ Just see your answer !.Simple and useful tip. Thank you very much!

[Hans Jacob Wagner]

In other programs that I've been working with (3D), a copy is not an instance. And a clone an instance that will change with the modified original or siblings.
The other way around you might say😐

[Rodney]

Yes, other programs are a bit more forgiving in this regard as they tend to allow layering on top or even editing a 'copy' and where the users wants a linked copy they have to specifically designate that.

I tend to think that the other way around would work better myself but after looking into the matter have convinced myself that technically a copy is exactly the same (and remains the same) as the original whereas a clone is a copy that at the time of cloning is the same but then can grow and change into something else.  As such I think OpenToonz techically gets it right but there will be an eternal line of new users that are accustomed to generic copy paste operations that don't link copies.  And... in most cases we would not want those copies to be linked because we might inadvertently alter the original.... yikes.

A potential solution would be to allow a dialogue box to open by default upon a copy/paste operation that specifically informs the user of what is happening (linked copy versus cloned copy).  An option would absolutely need to be there to turn off the dialogue because most users will most definitely not want it to appear each time they make a copy.  But until it was turned off the user would be getting educated on the difference.

I tend to map Clone to an easy keyboard combo like Alt + C to stay near to paradigm of Ctrl + C for copy so the only difference in execution on my part is using the Control key or using the Alt key.   If I recall correctly I had to borrow Alt + C from something else (the lipsync feature or something close to that).  As I don't use whatever that shortcut key combo is often it made good sense to change it.

Added:  The problem with the example you use is that neither appear to be exact LINKED copies that will always be the same.  That's the important part of OpenToonz copies.  Once made they will cascade update every time one of those copies is updated.  Again, an instance (in 3D or otherwise) generally may be a linked copy but data can be layered over it in ways that override and change the copy.  As far as I know there is nothing quite equivalent in OpenToonz outside of FX nodes in the Schematic that are applied to each instance of the copy.  They can alter the data of the original but always do so in a non destructive manner where.

Perhaps a more appropriate term for a copy in OpenToonz than 'instance' might be a 'reference' because the 'copy' refers back to the original..

It's like an HTML reference that doesn't actually make a copy... it only references the original source document.

As such, working with linked copies/referenced resources operations are much faster because multiple copies of multiple copies of multiple copies don't have to be referenced.

Technically, in OpenToonz a (linked/referenced) copy is more desireable than a cloned (unlinked) 'copy'.

The terminology does get confusing!  ;)

[Rodney]

Snapshot?

I'll be glad to provide more detail.

What exactly do you need a snapshot of?

Setting keyboard shortcuts?

[Jane Eyre]

In Blender, duplicated objects are linked together but can be unlinked afterwards if necessary. Having a command to “unlink” a duplicated level could be helpful. Since the command is shift-d to duplicate instead of copy and paste, there is probably less confusion.

[Rodney]

Yes, that would be a good idea.

The 'Delink' code in OpenToonz could simply perform a cloning operation.

I like that idea.

Of course it doesn't really solve the underlying issue of that people will forever be wondering why their copy keeps changing their other image(s).

The only way past that might be to have some visual means of recognizing a 'linked copy' in an xsheet.

But come to think of it the name of the level itself tells us that if we take the time to read it.

[Jane Eyre]

I like the idea of a visual representation in the Xsheet. Maybe in part of the column header, there could be a link icon? Hovering over the icon might show a tooltip “linked copy...”. Right-clicking the icon could give access to the unlink command.