OpenToonz 1.0.3 Crash! <<< Native, Nightly, Portable

[Alon Dan]

Hey All,

After a long time I almost gave up on OpenToonz just because it's crashing after few lines (already described it before).

I've downloaded the latest Nightly Version hopefully it got rid of the many Crashes.

No Luck... still crashes randomly after I draw few lines or sometimes I'm lucky enough to draw few frames... CRASH!

I've also downloaded the Portable Version: LINK HERE
And at start it looks like it's more stable and I can finally animate again! but it was too soon to be happy because... CRASH!

I'm not sure what cause these crashes,
I'm not a programmer I'm just an animator who LOVES OpenToonz but can't use it anymore :(

I've tried this also on my Intel i3 PC  with Windows 7 to make sure it's nothing specific on my main PC... same problem.

I've tried it on my main PC (description down) but this time with a brand NEW clean SSD and a FRESH NEW Windows 10 clean system with no other software (it was the very first thing to install after all the Tablet and GFX Drivers... no luck again.

While other animation software works perfectly fine, I understood it's nothing on my 2 PC's it's just OpenToonz like to crash on both Windows 7 and Windows 10 without even give me a clue why it's crashing so I can't help the developers and give them a direction it's just very random.

One thing is sure, I can't animate or work for more then few minutes... it's crashing very fast when I use it, I can just leave it open and it won't crash by itself of course (nothing like a timer...).

Dear Developers:

Is there any chance these crashes are known?  or it's just on my 2 PC's ?

Is there any chance you will fix the massive crashes?  I really like to animate with OpenToonz and probably other people also like to do so.

Please make the Crash issues on Top Priority, better than extra Features which you can always add later on a more stable version.

If anyone on the forum can show this thread to one of the developers it will be great, I don't know how to address them, I'm not a github user and don't know how it works, but I appreciate this forum and the OpenToonz community.

Thanks ahead to anybody who can help in this, we all appreciate a more stable version of OpenToonz.

I hope that 1.0.4 will have no crashes.

Main PC Specs:
CPU Intel i7  |  32GB RAM  |  SSD 480GB  |  Nvidia GTX 980  4GB  |   
Windows 10  (Clean install after the same crashes happened on Windows 7 + Latest updated drivers for all hardware)

Screenshot of the CRASH:

[Herbert123]

When does it crash for you? For example, in the current latest builds (including the portable version) OT will crash when you try to open a plastic tool level as a sub-Xsheet. A work-around exists, but still.

Post repeatable issues here: https://github.com/opentoonz/opentoonz/issues

[TurtleTooth]

Agreed with Herbert123. Can you please post steps that consistently make it crash for you?  I want to help get it working again for you.  I like your videos and you haven't been able to post for a while.

[Alon Dan]

Hey Guys,

I did described it, but I will do it again:

Steps:  (only 1)

Crashes Randomly after I draw few lines or Sometimes I'm lucky enough to draw few frames.

If you ask me it's like a "time" issue because it's nothing specific, OpenToonz just crash randomly after few minutes it doesn't matter what I do. but as I described, I only tried to draw (both vectors, and rasters) it doesn't matter.

That's it, I can't really work on anything else before it crashes.

As you already read on the original post, I did try everything, every version, every computer I have, everything I can try.

I know it's too random to get the problem fixed, But I hope it's fixable somehow...

Thanks ahead and sorry about my bad English.

[Herbert123]

And you are drawing on a Wacom tablet?

[Alon Dan]

On one PC I'm using the Wacom Cintiq, on the Other the XP-Pen Artist HD 22" if it helps.

Both = Same problem of random crash. :(

[Greg Smith]

I, too, have stalled in my use of OpenToonz - both for personal work and for demonstration (via my video tutorials).  It is unstable and inconsistent - and some features simply aren't worth using in their present state.

Just look at the forum traffic for the last month or so - and you will see other users must be having similar problems - making OpenToonz less popular with them, as well.

Look also at the decreasing number of Nightly Builds and also the seeming lack of interest by independent developers willing to work with Toonz Code.

It is a shame.  There are some incredibly innovative features and functions in the Toonz line of products:  Automatic In-Betweening with the best results I've seen - The Plastic Tool and its Bones (with the ability to change Bone Node Stacking Order on the fly) - The Schematic and the correspondence between the Level Strip and the X-Sheet and all those excellent options for working with both of them, to name just a few.

I think I have uncovered the reasons for development slow down here:

http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0389/

It's a thorough analysis of Toonz and OpenToonz code by experienced programmers.

The job to fix OpenToonz may really be a full plate - requiring the enlistment of quite a number of dedicated, "3rd Party" programmers.

What do you think?

Greg Smith

[Herbert123]

@Greg: That "analysis" should really be taken with a pinch of salt, and this is definitely not the reason for any perceived slowdown in development.  Also see: https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?394970-ToonzPremium-(2D-Animation-tool)-now-Open-Sourced&p=3035977&viewfull=1#post3035977

In my experience development of software slows down in the summer, and secondly after the initial enthusiasm of OT becoming open source it is only natural for things to wind down a bit, in my opinion.

It is just way too early in the game for such a negative outlook. Compared to the very first version the current nightly builds and version are running much more stable. I recall with the first version that it would crash regularly (way too often), and that is no longer the case (for me at least). I can finish short animations in OT without it crashing once - last week I worked on an animation an entire afternoon and evening (~6 hours) without it crashing once.

I am not negating the fact that OT is still a work in progress, and several bugs are known to crash it. On Mac OT is quite problematic.

I do agree it would be great if OT would be adopted by an open source foundation, or a dedicated group of developers. I have suggested before that the Blender Foundation could perhaps adopt it, and integrate it into a pipeline with Blender. With all the current 2d animation functionality development surrounding Blender I think chances are slim, though. Gimp, although slow in terms of development, does have a good dev group behind it.

Someone ought to set up an OpenTOonz Foundation ;-) But the user population for OT would be far, far smaller than Blender - making it an unrealistic proposition, I feel.

@Alon: Weird. Have you tried disconnecting the Cintiq, and draw with the mouse only to see if it makes any difference? Since you are experiencing the same crashes on both machines, do both machines share some kind of software outside the core Windows apps? You could use an application such as Process Explorer to kill applications running in the background one by one to investigate whether other software is causing these crashes.
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/processexplorer.aspx

[Alon Dan]

The thing is that I already made a few Video Tutorials as you can see HERE (click to watch)

I've learn OpenToonz from my personal experience pretty fast and tried to teach others what I know in general and using OpenToonz basic features.

Back to the Subject:
But since 1.0.3 more problems came, and now I can't work with it anymore, can't make anything even not a short video tutorial without the RANDOM CRASH thing... unfortunately I will have to wait for 1.0.4  and nothing guaranty that it will solve these weird new crashes.

I wonder if it's something related to the  Wacom Cintiq  or the  XP-Pen Artist HD 22"  because it's weird how so many other people still works with OpenToonz 1.0.3 without these weird random crashes.

I really hope that it will be fixed sometime soon because getting used to OpenToonz was really fun, and now getting back to another 2D Animation software it's not so much fun... at least for me. :(

I hope that the amazing Developers that will make it OpenToonz more stable as highest priority rather than new extra features at least for it's early evolution.

[Herbert123]

Yes, I really enjoyed watching your tutorials a while ago. I also feel it is directly linked to screen drawing devices in some way. I have a Wacom Intuos Pro 5, and drawing with vector or OT raster levels is stable - it does not crash for me (latest builds).

I might be able to test myself at work - they have Cintiqs as well.

[Rodney Baker]

Alon,

In the interim, until these problems can be resolved perhaps you can reinstall an earlier version and use that?

If that install is the same as what you used to create your videos (which are awesome BTW) then that should work well.

If those earlier installations don't still run... that would be an indication that something else has changed.

I'm not having the crashing problems with v1.0.3 although a few of the most recent nightly builds and Turtletooth's feature exploration portable have a few issues yet to be resolved.

But... that can be expected from nightly builds and experimental releases.

Of course, if you are experiencing issues with the standard releases that is a more serious problem.

For what it's worth, the only thing that is considerably different between your system and mine is the NVidia graphics card.

[Alon Dan]

Thank you all for your kind words about my Video Tutorials and also for trying to help.

This is why I appreciate the forum and OpenToonz community so much! :)

OK, so this is what I've done:

1 - Uninstall OpenToonz completely, Means: After uninstalling I even manually deleted the OpenToonz Stuff directory and everything inside so there are no left overs from OpenToonz (just that I'll be sure).

2 - Install the official OpenToonz latest release (1.0.3) downloaded again from the website and install.

3 - Launch OpenToonz.

4 - Drawing... still drawing... a few more lines, Few more Frames!  

5 - CRASH! 

OK! 
I'm not giving up yet... let's try the earlier version 1.0.2 which worked fine...

All the steps above AGAIN! (Restarting the computer after uninstall just to keep everything fresh).

1...

2....  Version 1.0.2

3.....

4...... same doodly doodly fun fun creation time and...... 

5 - CRASH!!!

I can't even explain it now:

If it's not the version itself, and my computer as explained in the beginning of the thread is a FRESH CLEAN INSTALL only with the needed drivers (most update as I always use).  

I'm guessing it is something in my hardware... but now it doesn't make any sense again!  WHY?

Well, because I tried that on my other PC which is different in hardware (even a different Tablet) and they both have the same crash on other hardware, even other OS.

That's why it's weird!

Checking again other 2D Animation software + Photoshop = Works fine, perfect, no crashes, no issues...

I have no clue, I'm really sad that I can't use OpenToonz for my next stupid Cartoon :(

I must get back to my other 2D Animation software... that sucks because I LOVE OpenToonz you can hear it in my voice on my videos how much I fall in love with it but can't use it now.   :(

This is sad for me and it's weird that it works fine for all of you guys.

At least I tried... 

[Herbert123]

As promised, I "procured" a 12" Cintiq at work, and installed Turtletooth's portable version (which includes the newer additions such as the linked styles and the pencil test option.

I ran OpenTOonz on the extended desktop screen on the Cintiq, and for 30 minutes I tried to crash it by drawing vector levels, animating a terrible looking bouncing ball, drawing in an Toonz raster level, use autopaint lines, use the fill tool in both types of levels, copied stuff, used the vector tools, and painted slow, fast, ultra-fast, and so on, and so forth. I also added colours, and switch to different brush types quickly.

Basically, I really tried my best to force a crash by quickly switching tools, and do stupid things (in terms of drawing, painting, and filling) in both vector and toonz raster mode.

It ran smooth, without hiccups. OT refused to crash. I did not encounter strange Cintiq behaviour either. Windows detected and installed the Wacom driver, and that was all I needed to get down to some crazy drawing and painting.

And this on a classroom instructor machine with a dreadful amount of other background services running. A machine that is abused day in and day out by instructors installing all sort of software, running for at least half a year.

OT just worked fine with the Cintiq, I am sorry to say.

Have you tried the "Minimize Raster Memory Fragmentation" option in the General preference category yet? It might help. Mine is off, and last time I checked it, it would cause intermittent crashes for me.

Another thing to try is to install an older version of the Wacom drivers.

[Herbert123]

Btw, what you are describing sounds like a memory leak, or something similar. Can't be certain, though.

[Alon Dan]

Thank you for the extra Tests with OpenToonz, I appreciate the description it helps me and gives me hope.

I don't think that the hardware (at least on my main computer) is the problem because it's a nice machine, not the best but very nice even for my 3D Works so I don't think OpenToonz should have problem with it:

Current Main PC specs:

░[CPU]: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.50 GHz
░[GPU]: EVGA GTX 980 4GB GDDR5 SC
░[RAM]: 32GB 

░[SSD]: 480GB 
░[OS]: Windows 10 Enterprise 64bit 

░[TABLET]: Wacom Cintiq 

░[MONITORS]: Total x4 (including the Tablet) 

I know lots of people that panic away and claim that the reason for problems may be too many screens.

It is not too many in my daily job, I use all of them and that's the reason for this setup.

It works with all software and this setup with no issues for years (I just purchased the dual screens).

The x4 monitors is my studio setup,  Dual AOC 144Hz 22" for smoother animation / video editing.

One 42" Plasma for true-colors during post when I send to TV broadcasting clients, and the Tablet Screen for animating, painting, composite and more.

ANYWAYS...

I'm going to try use my other Tablet alternative as I understand it's not the problem and I like it better than the Wacom Cintiq (I know it may sound weird) I'm using many kinds of Wacom Hardware for more than 10 years at the studio and on my personal use.

Anyways, I have the feeling that it's something related to drivers so I will have to test it and I will let you know the results.  I'll try to work more than the few minutes of the random crash and hope to get some good news!

I understand that I'm not the only one with random crashes, I saw a few more on the forums but this thread is very detailed and may help others in the future, so keep up the good job you guys!

I'll update you as soon as I'll have a chance to do the testing.

[TurtleTooth]

Alon-

I really want to help you get back with OpenToonz- it would be a shame to lose you.  I realize that you are an animator and not a programmer, but you might be able to help us figure out what is crashing on your system by running OpenToonz from Visual Studio.  This sounds like a lot of work, but I would be glad to walk you through it.  If you are willing to do this to help us figure out what is crashing on your system, please let me know and I will work with you to get it going.  I love having you as a voice in the OpenToonz community and would hate to lose you.

[Alon Dan]

Dear TurtleTooth, Thank you so much for your kind words I appreciate it!

Before I will install visual studio which I rather not to install just because I like my system clean as possible from extra registry and such but.. I may do that if that will help solve issues.

But before I'll install it, I'm now on a fresh installation of Windows 10 64bit, and I didn't install yet any Tablet Drivers who may cause the problem (Wacom was installed).  I've installed the Alternative Tablet (XP-Pen Artist 22" HD) WITHOUT it's drivers, using only it's Plug & Play based on the very limited Windows options...

After I've tried EVERYTHING I can think of, the only thing I didn't try is to NOT install any Tablet Drivers from the beginning, it is weird but I must give it a try as the XP-Pen is also a Plug & Play and the Wacom Cintiq is not, and must use it's Drivers... that's the only thing I can think who cause problems with OpenToonz.

Next step is to install a Fresh installation of OpenToonz 1.0.3 and play with it as a test just like Herbert123 did.

The question is: What should I install?

The official OpetnToonz 1.0.3  or the latest Nightly version?

Than... the tests will begin, I have a good feeling because of the fresh installation but we'll see...

Let me know what should I install for less bugs, better chance to make things works again.

[TurtleTooth]

The latest nightly will have the most recent bug fixes. Sometimes bugs creep in when others are fixed, but it works for me.

I'm really hoping this works for you.

[TurtleTooth]

Actually, thinking about it. It's hard to say which will be the most stable. 1.0.3 doesn't have the most recent bug fixes, but it also doesn't have done new features that may introduce more bugs.

I do think that a clean install without drivers of a good idea to try.

[Alon Dan]

I've installed the latest Nightly Version as you recommended first.

OK, There are GOOD news and less good news, here we go!

For now enough for me from the Wacom Cintiq, I put it back to the box... not going to try it for a while, I don't like it much as I do with the XP-Pen (at least for now).

These tests used the XP-Pen Artist HD 22" without it's drivers, only Plug & Play using Windows Pen & Touch limits.

I'm a big fan of the Raster rather than Vectors so this test mainly done in Rasters (if it matters).

TEST #1 - First Results:

Continue to my latest post (no Tablet Drivers, Relay on Windows 10's limited Pen & Touch)

1 - NO CRASH! 

Animating a squishy frame-by-frame animation, even painted it.. around 8 minutes without crashing that may sound a bit but originally I couldn't draw a few lines or click Play without a crash, so I have the feeling we're stable again which is very good!

Just to give you a clue, I couldn't get to 2 or 3 minutes without OpenToonz to crash... 

2 - Drawing Delay! 

When I start drawing there is a tiny delay like OpenToonz is working hard to create the layer or something like that and as I start drawing a long line... the very beginning of the line is Straight.

No matter if it's Rasters or Vectors there is this weird delay for the first drawing, not happening in the other software on the same state of testing (see bottom the other comparison tests).

Example:

If I want to draw a circle (or any shape) as I start drawing OpenToonz delay for a milisec and continues a straight line so the beginning of any shape will be a straight line than it will continue normally.

I also tried to mess with the Brush settings (smooth, no smooth etc..)  it doesn't matter same results.

Do you recognize this issue?  it seems like something specific in OpenToonz but I'm not sure.

The next issues are NOT related to OpenToonz but to Windows defaults limited Pen & Touch, but I must give all the information in case it will help somehow:

3- No Pressure Sensitivity 
Yes, enable disabled and Enable again, nothing... but it make sense because there is no Tablet Driver Installed.

Tested on both Vectors and Rasters = Same result, no pressure.

4 - No control over the Pen buttons 
Even after messing with the VERY LIMITED Pen & Touch options on Windows.

I can't use Right Mouse Click for example without do some weird Long Hold of the button and click on the screen.

There is no way to program the button without the Drivers control panel.

SAME STATE - ALTERNATIVE SOFTWARE TESTS:

ToonBoom Harmony: 

Works perfect, including pressure sensitive!  (not sure how but it works)

TV Paint Animation (Mirage)
Works perfect, including pressure sensitive!  (not sure how but it works)

Photoshop:

Works perfect, including pressure sensitive!  (not sure how but it works)

Krita 3.0:

Works fine but also without Pressure Sensitive support.

OpenToonz Pressure Sensitive:  

I'm not a programmer but I believe I have a clue how OpenToonz can support Windows 10's pressure sensitive:

In ToonBoom Harmony and in TVPaint there is the option to Enable or Disable something called: "WinTab"

In both software I didn't touch it, it's enabled by default.

In OpenToonz I may missed this option so if it's there on the preferences please let me know and I will try to Enable it and see if the Pressure Sensitive will work.

I hope that this test will help you out solve something,

I'm still not sure if I want to install the Drivers so I can work without crashing but the thing is that I'm loosing control on the Pen's buttons, and there is no pressure sensitive and that Delay on drawing is something I couldn't get away with.

* Sorry about the long post and about my bad English.

Please keep on update so we can make OpenToonz works and more stable for all users!

[Herbert123]

I recall I had lagging issues just before drawing with my Wacom Intuos Pro 5 when "Press and Hold" was turned on in the Pen and Touch settings. In addition, I deactivated "Flicks". After that, no issues. And I work on a three screen system, so I do not believe your four screens are the issue here.

I do always install the Wacom drivers, though. My driver version is 6.3.8-4 - perhaps try that version? I have read that a number of users reported problems with certain driver versions, and it may be a solution.

[Alon Dan]

I forgot to mention that I tested it with:
 "Press and Hold" turned on and off = same results

and in the Pen and Touch settings "Flicks" is disabled same if it's enabled but I turned it off because I don't need it anyway.

I'm afraid that the 4 monitors cannot be the issue for one reason, when I worked with 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 I never ran into this Delay issue.

Another reason it can't be related to the 4 screens is that all other software I've mentioned have no Lagg or Delay.

Only OpenToonz have this issue... so it can't be the 4 Monitors.

In my other computer (1 monitor) I have the crashes and it's running the Wacom, I did try not only the latest version but also earlier... didn't affect the Random Crashes.

I wonder if there is a 3rf party software to change the Pressure or controlling a general Stylus / Pen buttons without installing the original Drivers for the Tablet.

I have a strong feeling that if OpenToonz have the  WinTab  option like in most 2D Animation software, everything will work much better and more supportive.

But I couldn't see any  WinTab  option in the properties... did I miss it?  is it in a different hidden menu?

When I disable the WinTab options on the other software mentioned they have no pressure sensitivty support.
and they are turned on.

For now I'm not going to use the Wacom on my main machine as I love the XP-Pen much better than my Wacom Cintiq and also it works on all software only have issues with OpenToonz... but same was with the Wacom anyway.

[John Dancel]

Hi Alon,

For #2, the delay issue. Is OT using your GPU when running? I know i had lag issues until i forced OT to run against my GPU instead of the default CPU.

[Alon Dan]

Hey Jhon,

That's a good question, I don't know because I'm using the Defaults as OpenToonz installed.
I guess OT runs on CPU by default, right?

How do I force OT to run with the GPU instead of the CPU? 

[John Dancel]

According to what I understand from the developers in GitHub, the delay is due to OT using something that may not account for graphic cards or something like that.  Basically it's why you may see delays in OT and not in other drawing software.  Would take time to rewrite it, but I found using GPUs does make a difference.  Unless otherwise specified, I don't believe OT will force the use of the GPU automatically so you are probably using your regular CPU.  If it's a powerful one, it may not be a problem but for some it isn't, hence the delays.

Anyway, Your graphics card should have some software associated with it that allows you to modify it's settings.  For NVIDIA cards, there is a tool called the NVIDIA Control Panel and in there you can force applications to use the GPU instead of CPU.  I had to Add OT to the list since the card doesn't recognize it by default and then selected my graphics card as the preferred processor.  See image.

Your graphics card appears to be from a company partnered to NVIDIA.  Not sure what your card's control panel would be named if it isn't NVIDIA Control Panel.  You may actually have to download it from you card's website.

[Alon Dan]

Thanks for the detailed instructions John.

As I mentioned before I don't have the best computer, but it is OK, and serves me very well with my other software and also for my 3D without any issues, everything works smooth for me. (only OpenToonz have the weird issues and delay)

Current Main PC specs:

░[CPU]: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.50 GHz 
░[GPU]: EVGA GTX 980 4GB GDDR5 SC 
░[RAM]: 32GB 

░[SSD]: 480GB 
░[OS]: Windows 10 Enterprise 64bit 

So I entered the Manage 3D Settings under the Nvidia Control Panel, Added OpenToonz to the list.

But unlike in your screenshot, it didn't just give me a preset of High-Performance to choose.

It gave me all the mini-details (usually we see in Games Options Screens and in 3D Software Preferences).

I'm talking about a Long list with buffering, antialiasing refresh rate and such...

So I did try to turn on some of them (most of them already enabled anyway).

I even tried to close and open OpenToonz in case it didn't work as I click Apply just to be sure.

No difference in the Delay for me... There is a chance I need to mess with one of the options on the list but it is too complicated for me to mess with and I don't want to make things works even worth than it is, so after I did some manipulations and saw it didn't got rid of the delay I just leave it for now.

I hope that The next release of OpenToonz 1.0.4  or even a big-change Nightly version will do some serious improvements on the known issues, bugs, and weird delay without messing around manually...

I also hope to have WinTab support in OpenToonz 1.0.4 so we can mess with it with any Plug & Play device and not just Wacom Tablets :)

I'm not sure when 1.0.4 will be here... but I rather see some serious improvements than more features.

The BASE of OpenToonz is not very stable for so many people, it should be highest priority to make it actually works and built-like-a-tank before adding extra features.

I would LOVE to see more cool features but again... OpenToonz need to be more stable first, at least in my opinion.

[John Dancel]

Can you send me, privately if you want, a screenshot of the NVIDIA control panel where you entered OT? Curious to see what yours looks like.

[Alon Dan]

Sure, 
Here are the 3 screenshots because the list is long I had to stitch them together.

Consider it's after I played with the options a bit, it's not the default.

I've tried many options on/off... almost any option possible (even those who are not related)

I don't think there is a specific option that will do a change in OpenToonz.

The Developers must make it from the inside of the software in my opinion just like in any other 2D software for maximum capabilities.

Also... WinTab support will be very helpful like in many other 2D animation and drawing software.

[John Dancel]

Hmm. Interesting. The only other way I verify OT is using my graphics card is on my system tray, there is an NVIDIA GPU Activity icon that shows OT in the list when it is running.  Beyond making sure you are using the GPU, I wish I could be of more help.  Good luck.

[Gotnix Medi]

I can not use it either. my tolerance is high but such a high crash rate I have not experienced in a program yet. lines, erase, import, draw, click on a particular frame, render.

I have now 8 hours worked a scene which is now destroyed because frame 44 caused a crash. even if I try to delete them. even the old saves are affected, although it still worked before. I have a lot of programs that all run stably. Tested on win 10 and win 7 vers. 1.1.3 valuable and beautiful program but I will look for an alternative and not reuse it, since the crashes are probably little priority.

[John Dancel]

Is it crashing when you are trying to do certain things?  Can you reliably repeat the steps to the crash so a developer can repeat the crash on their system and see what's wrong?

How were your old saves that worked before affected? 

Crashes are not little priority. It's just sometimes people don't provide enough information or it's difficult to recreate. If there is enough information and a developer can repeat the crash, then it can be looked into and fixed.