Accurate Vector Brush (quality) + Cutting Ends (overlapping cut) + Temporary Second Tool (wokflow)

[Alon Dan]

Hello All,

If any of you ever used ToonBoom Animate or Harmony, Not only that their Vector brush is currently the best accurate and smooth I've ever used for Animating with Vectors (not talking about Rasters) but also there is a powerful feature that we all NEED and want in the future OpenToonz.

The reason I only use the Raster layers in OpenToonz now is only because it feels more accurate when drawing, even after messing with the smoothing options on the latest version (currently Version 1.1.1) I can't get a natural feel when drawing with vectors compare to other vector software such as ToonBoom Studio (their old software), Animate and Harmony. 

Just to be clear: Studio and Animate are no more supported and stop developed, they only have ToonBoom Harmony now, I gave these examples because even ToonBoom Studio is very old, it had the same Vector Brush engine and feel as they use now in Harmony, of course they've improved it but still it was very accurate consider it's Vector and not Raster brush.

So the 3 Features I believe lots of us will be HAPPY to have in OpenToonz are:

1 - Improved Vector Brush (quality + accuracy)

Higher quality and more accurate Vector Brush (just like in Harmony, but with the powerful tools of OpenToonz of course).

Maybe the OpenToonz Brush engine is too old and need to re-code from scratch or update it's features, I'm not a programmer I can only guess.

But it doesn't matter, as long as it's possible to work on the Vector Brush it will make OpenToonz MUCH more usable and stronger in the standard 2D Animation area.

2 - Cutter Tool for vector Brush.

I know that there is a cutter tool in OpenToonz but I mean to something different, 
It's more like in ToonBoom Animate (old) and ToonBoom Harmony (from older version until today's version).

This POWERFUL tool making the animation process much faster, and as somebody who used it for a while in their very early version of Harmony called "ToonBoom SOLO" I immediately fall in love with it and it let me animate MUCH faster because the brain tells me to use it as I draw every frame, it is like a magical shortcut that once you start use you can't stop work with it.


Let me try to explain how it works:  (see example GIF below)

Every time you add a NEW line of drawing OVER another line (stroke) you can hold the T key on your keyboard (shortcut) while using the brush tool and as long as you hold the T key the tool changes to the "CUTTER" while you hold the key and drawing on a overlap line you can cut it with No extra edges, No weird leftovers of vectors or anything it is the most accurate cut and it is VERY CLEAN you can draw and fix any shape in less than few seconds as you animate, means you do all this WHILE DRAWING! 

3. Holding Key for a Temporary Second Tool

Just like I described the wofklow of the Brush Tool as the main one, and the Cutter as the second one ONLY WHILE HOLDING the key:

This workflow is magical:  You choose the vector Brush Tool, drawing something and as you draw you hold the T key to use the CUTTER TOOL and fix, manipulate, clean lines.  once you let the key go, it gets back to your default Brush Tool and you continue drawing.

This workflow in general of holding a button while you're using your selected tool as the MAIN TOOL.

So you don't have to press B for brush and than again T to switch to cutter tool and again... B and so on, you just hold the T key (or any other shortcut we need) and when you stop holding the key, it will get back to your MAIN TOOL, this is much better than any regular hotkey switching in any software.

Example of all the 3 features (used in ToonBoom Harmony)

* Sorry about my bad English.

I really hope to see these features in the future of OpenToonz, it will make OpenToonz much better for sure!
Keep up the good job and have a wonderful day.


Alon,

* Also in GitHub Feature Request - (READ HERE)

[Rodney]

Hi Alon,

We *almost* have the feature you are talking about.  ;)

Forgive me for thinking out loud here.

This may be more for developers than for you Alon.

First, let me say the obvious; this feature request certainly would be a welcome addition.

In considering where OpenToonz is now versus where it would need to be to grant your request I submit the following (which may or may not relate to the reality of the code behind the scenes).

I can get fairly close to the workflow demonstrated in the animated gif. Not quite but close.

The first thing I do is assign the "Remove Vector Overflow" process to a shortcut key (in my case I'm using Shift V)

The next thing I do is change the Selection Tools Type to Freehand (the default is rectangular).

With the combination of these two many useful shapings of two drawn objects are possible.

But here is where the similarity stops too. 

There may be an intermediate step that is necessary in order to move toward the feature you request and that would possibly be where OpenToonz can treat vector shapes in such a way as to allow some additions to the "Remove Vector Overflow" feature.

Many vector programs have tools that allow for two shapes to be combined by various methods such as weld, trim, intersect, front minus back, back minus front, simplify and boundary.  I'm using the terms used for shaping from Coreldraw... other programs may use other terminology.  I believe at their root functionality they would be Add, Subtract, And, Or, XOR etc.)

I *think* that before this feature can be added the interim step/functionality of shaping, that is to say the combining of vector shapes needs to be considered.  At present the implementation appears to be that of lines exlusively.  In other words, the shapes created by use of the Geometry tool are not the same as those created using the brush tool and those shapes (geometry tool shapes) are not therefore not affected by the Remove Vector Overflow).  In order to shape the lines they first would need to be able to be combined into one set of vectors (one shape) and then the terms of that shape could be specified (during the process of combining the shapes).  

I will go out on a limb and guess that ToonBoom's approach is to have all lines be (closed) shapes from the outset.  To get at the same basic processing In OpenToonz a fundamental aspect of the vector lines would have to change.  This might be at the root of the object but it might also be accessed by entering into a mode where the vector lines are converted to shapes.

Something of further interest in this general arena... if we draw a vector line (or geometry shape) and try to Select All the option to do this is not available.

I think I will stop now before I hurt myself...

[Alon Dan]

Hey Rodney,
Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts about the Brush overlapping subject.

OK, sorry for the long post but I must share my opinions here since this subject is very important to me and to many others who will give OpenToonz a try for the first time.

Please keep in mind that I'm not a developer, I'm just a professional animator who works different animators and studios during the years.

I agree, the process you describe is... as you said: "almost" there but still not as close to what it should be like in a standard animation software these days.

The way the "Remove Vector Overflow" works is not accurate at all, it feels like it's trying as hard as possible to guess what the user wants to get rid of but not 100% successful and not on every shape or angle, so it's not as clean as it should and hard to use in order to get a clean, fast result as it should.

The Brush itself in OpenToonz is... how to say, not that good, it's not accurate even after manipulating the accuracy, the smooth controls and the other options. it's not emulating as a good brush, it doesn't "FEEL" natural compare to ToonBoom or any other 2D Software such as Krita, ClipStudio, TVPaint and of course.... ToonBoom Harmony.

It feels like an old early vector brush tool that didn't update for years, and I don't mean about the extra features (overlapping cut), I mean the brush itself as drawing with it.

The Raster brush in OpenToonz is much more accurate (I know, it's not the same technology but Harmony also uses Vectors & Rasters on the same software and it's very accurate and very well emulated so it feels natural to draw with.

If you give an average user to draw a few fast shapes with both software, believe me they will not choose OpenToonz just because how it FEELS and that's why I open this thread, to mention this overall Brush design and how it should work as a main tool.

The first thing somebody taste in a 2D animation software is how the Brush feels when using a paperless work flow.

This impression will get you work on a project before using the rest of the tools from the software, that's also why I've mentioned 3 related features and not just 1.

I know it may sound like a complain to OpenToonz, but it is not a complain it's more like a "scream" for future improvement, why a scream? because it is the very first thing that should be fixed or even re-create from scratch before the rest of any of the other feature requests.

AS I said, the Brush is the most important part of a 2D Animation software, it is the core and the base of how the animators will work and feel as creating new frames with their hands.

I remember moving from software to software a few years ago before just because of the main brush tool.

Flash was bad brush emulation, Mirage (today called: TVPaint) feels the most accurate but it was Rasters, and any ToonBoom product especially when we used ToonBoom SOLO (the very first personal Harmony) was the most flexible, accurate and high quality Brush compare to a Vector with all it's limitations back then compare to Raster brushes in programs like Photoshop.

I'm not a developer but I strongly believe that the OpenToonz devs are amazing and can solve or re-design the brush, it's just a matter of time and if somebody will take this as HIGH PRIORITY before many other extra features that can be added later.

Again, sorry for the long post and about my bad English.
I hope this makes my points of these 3 Feature requests much more clear.

[Rodney]

I know it may sound like a complain to OpenToonz

No Sir.  It doesn't sound like complaining at all.  It sounds like a feature request. 

The more feature requests we explore the better. 

Just as long as we (the users) know that implementing our requests may not happen in the short term, mid term or (insert sad face here) ever.

The feature you speak of is ahem... how shall I say this... the only feature that convinced me to purchase Toon Boom's Animate several years ago.

Most of the other features I had access to in various forms but that one... sweet.

But even given that feature Animate has mostly gathered dust on my computer.  I didn't warm up to Toon Boom's workflow. (But still have it installed just in case I ever get the itch)

Hopefully a feature like this can be implemented or... dare I say... one that is even better.  

It's good to play to a software's strengths and right now Toon Boom's got that one going.

Keep on rockin' (and submitting those feature requests)

As for the 'screaming' part.  In my experience...

A calm measured response will move mountains.

The more users scream the more they get ignored.  ;)

But of course, there are certainly things that can be done to raise the priority of requests and that is why we have a forum.

We may think a feature like this should have the highest priority but other users tend to put the greater emphasis on theirs. 

I'd drone on and on but as a animator in the trenches you already know the score. 

-Rodney

(Sorry for MY english!)  lol

[Alon Dan]

Dear Rodney, I feel you and I'm glad that you know what I'm talking about since you've used ToonBoom Animate, because it's hard to describe and easier to actually "feel" how it works when using their brush and compare to the current OpenToonz Brush. 

I'm a big fan of OpenToonz and how it's getting evolve and improved on every version.

I have a strong feeling that OpenToonz Brush tool will get better and better but I as you said, it will not happen in the short term. 

I just hope that the amazing OpenToonz Devs will take this as a project so they can focus on the all Brush core first as a higher priority for obvious reasons that I've mentioned.  :)

[TurtleTooth]

This would definitely be awesome.  I don't think the features are compatible with the way the brush is implemented in OpenToonz- right now it makes vector lines instead of shapes.  But I could see a new tool being implemented that does this.  It would definitely make the vector layers much easier to manipulate.  

Btw- Alon were you able to get your crashing issues figured out?

[Alon Dan]

I don't want to say that it's 100% not crashing but... it seems like Version 1.1.1 is more stable now.

The reason I can't say if it's still crashing is because I didn't animate something yet but compare to the earlier version it wouldn't crash on every few lines, that's already a good sign. :)

[DarrenT]

Hi Alon, all,

I thought I'd update you with the news that there is now a "Cutter Tool" feature in OpenToonz. It's a new erase type called, Erase Segment. I made a video about it here: https://youtu.be/gnoCs6DYha0

DarrenT