segment selection tool /hide lines between 2 points

[openanim]

Hi,

The selection tool is used to hide lines of vectors.

But when we want to hide a part of a vector/drawing, we must use  use the cutter tool.

The problem is that the cutter tool breaks the vector as well as the correspondences between the vectors during the in-between process.

We can do the cleaning at the end but we can no longer use the drawings in other tweening processes

If the selection tool could have a mode where it is possible to select the segments of the crossed lines would be great, without use the cutter tool.
Or be able to select or hide lines between 2 points (as Moho) . And this could solve the issue.

- So an segment tool can be interresting to be able to select only segment

- or to be able to select thes lines between 2 points that we can see when we use vector editor and combine it with the thickness feature.

  

[Rodney]

There was some discussion on how to approach this considering OpenToonz present technology and tools.

It can be found in Issue#746, which is currently closed.

So this is definitely the right place to discuss it.

My thoughts there were that the developers might be able to shoehorn an existing feature into accomplishing the goal of hiding segments of a vector line.

I can't help but thing such an approach might yield even better results than those found in other programs.

I'm mostly going from memory but as I see it there are several candidates for moving forward on this request:

1.  Build a new tool that hides segments of a vector line.

For a number of reasons I suspect that this tool fundamentally already exists in the OpenToonz code but in order to achieve the 'hiding' that code needs to be further defined.

2.  (What I think might be preferable for a number of reasons)  Enhance the Pump Tool to achieve 1) Zero thickness lines 2) variation from tapered to capped at the end of the segments of lines

The second part is surely to be the hardest to code.  An additional benefit to OpenToonz in general would be increased emphasis on use of the Pump Tool although it might actually suggest an eventual renaming of the tool due to increased capabilities in modifying segments and lines (although what name that would be I have no idea)

3.  Using Fill Tool hide segments of a line (via applied styles)

There are a lot of reasons to like this approach including that the user could easily unhide segments of a line according to whatever Style is applied.  Those segments could even be partially transparent.

The difficulty here in coding would be to get a line fill to only apply to a segment of a line.  Currently it is all or nothing.

4.  There is almost a workflow that meets the basic criteria of this feature in the Control Point Editor Tool (Shortcut key C)

If we select control points on a vector line we can move them and such but not hide them.  When Right Clicking we can see an option to "Hide Zero thickness Lines" and if that said "Hide line" and made the selection zero thickness... Done.

There is a partial workaround that almost gets the job done that might be easy to code a fix for and that uses the Pump Tool.

The workflow might demonstrate to a developer what success DOESN'T look like.  ;)

The first step is to select the vector line with Selection Tool and then set the line to zero thickness.

Then using the Pump Tool increase the thickness of a segment (part) of the line.

Note that this almost works but by increasing any part of the line the whole line increases to where it is no longer zero thickness.

So close.

That referenced issue again for those so inclined:  Issue#746

[openanim]

Thanks for the link of the thread, interesting things.

#1 I also have this feeling, when we see what is already capable of opentoonz, including the feature to "remove segments overflow".

#2 Very interesting, personally I almost never think of this tool because it disappoints me in its accuracy compared to other software. But it is true that it has great potential.
It is already possible in opentoonz to have invisible lines with the pump tool.It is possible if all the parts of a line are reduced to a minimum but the other hand, accuracy is a problem.

#3 The same defects that the tool pumps and it is longer. Besides,I don't think this is a good approach

#4 That its same the option to hide lines between 2 points and if we can combine that with feature thickeness of selection tool and we can do same thing as Moho.

At present, it may be that the application of the pump is the most "easy" to implement to cover this need. Provided that it can gain precision on the area to be applied.

Is it better to open a new topic "Improving the Pump?"

    "My thoughts there were that the developers might be able to shoehorn an existing feature into accomplishing the goal of hiding segments of a vector line.
    I can't help but thing such an approach might yield even better results than those found in other programs."

To my knowledge the animation software with the best system are cacani, and moho (easy, fast and efficient). In cacani the development of this feature is very advanced. The software has two segment tools to hide entire segments or each part of a segmengts/drawing in a totally free way. Moho does not have that degree of accuracy but he does the work perfectly too. See here for cacani :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ha_YJStcmg

[Rodney]

Is it better to open a new topic "Improving the Pump?"

That would be appropriate.

You might find yourself with two new features both which can be used to meet the goal.

I recommend leaving a link to this topic and drop a suggestion as to how it relates.

[openanim]

Maybe we can consider a bountysource? Due to thread, this seems to be an expectation for many people.
In any case I created the request for the pump tool

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/opentoonz_en/feature-requests/G_AgxoI37QY

[openanim]

A small video that shows the issue. f we could use the freehand mode of the selection tool to choose the part we wanted to hide, it would be great, sweet dream :)

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AspsYffPSwbdh7h9TfRMzyhd4HaSrA

[Rodney]

My favorite 3D program, Animation:Master, uses splines and it's approach to something like this would be Groups with a Property of 'Render As Lines'.

By default no lines/splines render (only surfaces) so it is more of this issue in reverse; something of an 'unhide'.  ;)

This is similar to what you are suggesting about selecting part of the line and then 'hiding' except in this case the 'Hide' opiton is equivalent to 'Do not render as lines'.

I cannot help but feel that OpenToonz has some additional grouping capability that isn't present in OpenToonz but someone with Toonz Harlequin or Toonz Premium will have to confirm or deny.

I have to say that I do like the idea of gaining the abiliy to Group segments of a line.

Currently we can Group one or more lines but not segments of lines.

*IF* segments could be Grouped then Styles could be assigned to that group that would (at least in theory) make the line segment transparent *IF* that Style's Transparency/Alpha was set to 0.

The added benefit would be that line segments in OpenToonz could also be of any color and partially transparent.

For discussions sake, I do not know what is going on in the code but it may be that OpenToonz lines operate similarly to the splines in Animation:Master and normally would not render because they aren't really there but are mathematical constructs.  Those constructs then have a surface associated with them that render; hence the ability to have tapering lines and brush imagery applied.  If something like this is the case then it becomes a little easier (in the code) to 'hide' that surface.

[openanim]

 I never used Hash master but, about Harlequin, not to my knowledge. Thinking about it, if we could merge all the features into one tool, that would be possible to get it. 

Note, even if you could have the parameters of the pinch tool on selection tool , we could surely get it :D: 

The zone of influence of pinch tool can be chosen with a much more accurate precision than the pump tool then it would be possible to hide the desired areas, If this area could be selected. *IF* :D

[Rodney]

This is (still!) not quite what you are looking for but...

First a little background

I started out being a fan of OpenToonz vector levels.  Vector has been my favorite approach since way back in the Coreldraw 3.0 days.

Lately, I've become a big fan of vector levels esp. with the appearance of MyPaint brushes (this harkens back to those same days but with Corel Photopaint 3.0.

What I liked about Corel's approach was that I could move back and forth between vector and raster.

OpenToonz takes this to a greater level and perhaps even moreso with the creation of Toonz raster Levels.

It is via Toonz raster Levels that we can 'disappear' lines in a way that approaches the desire of this request.

Steps

Create a new Level and make sure it is a Toonz raster level.

Draw something

Now make sure you have the Paint Brush Tool selected (not the Brush tool).

Change Styles (or create a new one)  - Make it red for the purpose of this test

Make sure the setting for the Paint Brush is set to Lines (as opposed to Area or Lines and Areas) on the top menu

Paint the lines you want to change/erase

They should change to Red

Now adjust the Alpha Channel of the Style to make the Style completely transparent.

Done.

And we can do even more... we can use other styles to 'segment' those lines even further.

And because it's fairly trivial to convert to and from Toonz raster and Toonz vector using either (or both) works quite well.

So... yeah... not Vector segmentation but a workflow that can approach the basic needs underlying the request.

Because I've been favoring Toonz Vector and (generic) raster Levels I've neglected Toonz raster... even thought of it as a lesser member of the family... but I've been seeing hints that suggests it needs some prime time in the spotlight as well.  What I'm discovering is that when using Vector levels... that one is the best and when using raster... that one is the best... and so I think that when I start to use Toonz raster... I'll discover that that one is also the best.  In other words, because of OpenToonz hybrid nature we aren't limited by a set of rules that confines us to just one path.  :)

[openanim]

Thank you Rodney for your proposal, although I already knew this approach, I see that you like a lot the style approach : D

Obviously, if the paint brush tool was compatible on the vector it would still be another compatible solution.

Or create a new tool that combines, all that. A very opentoonz approach to the issue :).

It would be better than moho, and would almost compete with cacani about that.

Otherwise, the major problem for me, you had mentioned. This does not work with vector levels.

Converting is not a good solution as it greatly deteriorates the tweening process and it becomes unusable.
 
Even if toonz raster levels are great for coloring, in my process, I use them much less than vectors.

By the way if we could have autopaint for lines (on vectors levels), that would be great.

Currently, if I want to make shadows or highlights quickly, I use the method of 0 alpha lines since the autopaint for lines feature only work on TLV levels. And it's unlucky.
Greater flexibility like Retas paintman would have been a good point. But the workaround method 0 alpha lines for that works.

Anyway, To return to the subject, I think that currently the method you propose is only usable when you do not intend to use the tweening function of the level strip .

It is not bad, but it is not compatible with my process.