[OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Mikel Maron
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ
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Jean-Marc Liotier
On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote:User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word.so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC.
IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these "official" street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become.I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind:
- Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his favourite rules if he wants.
- Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it using his favourite rules if he wants.
- Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let the user choose which one he wants.
Would a name:abbreviated tag make sense ?
Is the expanded name the canonical one ?
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE
Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast
But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the city-supplied street sign shows "Waterman Ln".
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ
PS. For non-US residents, USPS = United States Postal Service
Mike N
> script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full
> word.
They don't look like mass automated edits to me - these are smaller
quantities of changes made via Potlatch. They could just be responding
to the editor's prompts not to use abbreviations.
In the US, there is this thread -
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2012-February/007436.html
The consensus seems to lean toward automating the name expansion.
And no matter how many times it is discussed ahead of time, someone will
be surprised when the script is run (if it ever does run).
Guillaume Rischard
This is "not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC", you say. But it's the way people in DC pronounce it, which is what a navigation system or an audio map for blind users would do. Our database isn't just used to render images.
"The renderer can use rules to de-abbreviate", you will say. It gets complicated for ambiguous abbreviations — is St Saint or Street?
Tobias Knerr
> I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind:
> - Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his
> favourite rules if he wants.
> - Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it
> using his favourite rules if he wants.
> - Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let
> the user choose which one he wants.
Usually, the name tag should contain the non-abbreviated name, and
software using the data should shorten it if appropriate. See e.g. the
relevant section in http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names :
"Do not abbreviate words. Computers can easily shorten words but not the
other way (St. could be Street or Saint). If the signs have abbreviated
words and you don't know what the full word is, then use it temporarily
until someone else complete it. Using short forms is a decision of
software i.e. the underlying data should have the full street name. This
will allow a renderer, a router or a location finder to introduce
abbreviations as necessary."
Around here (Germany), we indeed avoid using even common abbreviations
in the name tag . But how you handle this in your area is of course an
issue that should preferably be agreed on by local contributors, and any
automated edits need to be discussed in advance. I think it would be
easier for users of our data if the conventions for tags like name=*
would be applied somewhat consistently throughout the map, though.
Tobias
Tom Hughes
> User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a
> script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full
> word.
> so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest.
> Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC.
Well the normal rule in OSM is that we write names unabbreviated because
it's easier for a user to abbreviate automatically then to expand
automatically.
That said certain abbreviations are so common in the US that the names
are essentially never written in full and those possibly should be left
alone.
In any case, clearly doing this in an automated way without discussion
is inappropriate.
Tom
--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
> On 23/03/12 12:36, Mikel Maron wrote:
>
>> User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a
>> script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full
>> word.
>> so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest.
>> Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC.
>
> Well the normal rule in OSM is that we write names unabbreviated
> because it's easier for a user to abbreviate automatically then to
> expand automatically.
>
> That said certain abbreviations are so common in the US that the names
> are essentially never written in full and those possibly should be
> left alone.
>
Hence http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations#English
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ
AJ Ashton
TIGER) I will manually expand them because I agree with the OSM wiki's
take on things [0]. For most (all?) uses other than rendering text on
maps, the full expansion makes more sense than the abbreviation.
Granted, I would rarely write out, eg, "14th Street Northwest", but
that *is* how I pronounce it, and it's probably more useful for
translations or other things you would want to do with the data.
Its much easier for tools to automatically abbreviate words than the
other way around. (We've done automatic abbreviations for the latest
MapBox map [1].) I agree that abbreviations should not be
automatically expanded by bots, but it doesn't sound like that's
what's happening here.
[0]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
[1]: http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/mapbox.mapbox-streets.html#17.00/38.92490/-77.04019
-- AJ Ashton
Kay Drangmeister
Lynn wrote:
> my address is:
>
> USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE
> Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast
>
> But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the
> city-supplied street sign shows "Waterman Ln".
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22waterman+ln%22&word2=%22waterman+lane%22
this looks like it is almost a draw (181:150). So "never ever" seems exaggerated. :-)
Cheers,
Kay
Serge Wroclawski
> Hi
>
> User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a
> script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full
> word.
> so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest.
> Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC.
> Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped?
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest is the correct name. The others are
abbreviations.
You'd never say "1600 Pennsylvania 'ave En Double-U"
Automated edits are bad, but he's putting in the correct names.
- Serge
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
>
> Lynn wrote:
>
>> my address is:
>>
>> USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE
>> Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast
>>
>> But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the
>> city-supplied street sign shows "Waterman Ln".
>
> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22waterman+ln%22&word2=%22waterman+lane%22
>
> this looks like it is almost a draw (181:150). So "never ever" seems
> exaggerated. :-)
Nope, note the "I" in that statement. I have NEVER written it in full
form. Lane, yes. SouthEast NEVER. Consider:
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=waterman+ln+se&word2=waterman+lane+southeast
But I'm dropping out of this discussion having learned of the OSM
"standard" and being made re-aware of the difference between the "data"
and a "rendering" of the data.
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ
Paul Johnson
> User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a
> script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full
> word.
> so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest.
> Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC.
>
> Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped?
Rule one for names: Abbreviations: Just don't do it.