"Darwin-only" schedules?

[eta (η)]

Hello,

Is it possible for Darwin to issue <schedule> messages for schedules which ITPS and VSTP
don't cover? For example, today I received a <schedule> message
with RID 201808147939625, UID O39625 and ssd of today (2018-08-14). As far as I can tell,
UID O39625 doesn't ever appear in the ITPS data (as OpenTrainTimes
also confirms: https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/O39625).

Therefore, am I right to state that there are some trains whose schedule is only ever
published via Darwin? My current setup assumes that every Darwin <schedule> must
correspond to an existing ITPS schedule, but perhaps this assumption is incorrect.

Thanks in advance,
~eta

[Allan Blundell]

Interesting it is following the path of W12796 and time of that schedule Rid is 201808148712796

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[Peter Hicks]

Hello

Trains can be in Darwin and not on TRUST, and vice versa.

This particular service (O39625) was input by Darwin Workstation at 1445 today, and as Allan correctly points out, is train 2G46 1507 Guildford - Waterioo.  In fact, TRUST has followed that train all the way.  The original (W12796) was deleted by Darwin Workstatoin at 1445.

For some reason, there are several Guildford - Waterloo services which are deleted on Darwin - e.g. O36924 is in the place of W12784.  There's also an O39634 which seems to be a duplicate of O39625.

I'm not quite sure what the intent behind this is - maybe the trains were deleted in error, or maybe it's some kind of live test of new functionality.

Peter

OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in England and Wales, company no. 09504022.

Registered office: 13a Davenant Road, Upper Holloway, London N19 3NW

[Rail Delivery Group]

Hi,

As Peter notes, schedules can and do appear in Darwin which have not been matched to a schedule from NR services. Darwin has the 'O' UID prefix exclusively assigned to it by NR so you can be certain that any UID which begins with an 'O' has originated in Darwin. The reasons why schedules may be created in Darwin are many, ranging from disruption management (hopefully the majority) to correcting timetabling errors (either TOC or NR). Darwin does not, for example, currently use the VSTP feed for NR so any new 'on-the-day' schedules have to be created independently in Darwin (and thus get an 'O' prefix). This can be done directly in Darwin by the TOC (or on behalf of the TOC at their request by the NRCC) using the Darwin workstation or through a TOC's customer information system (a station board management tool or Tyrell).

Unlike the data in NR systems, TOCs have full control over their schedules in Darwin so can amend or create schedules at any time independently of NR, which allows them to quickly reflect changes in schedules directly to customers - usually when there is some kind of unplanned, on the day disruption. TOCs having this ability to quickly ensure their customer facing schedules are correct is therefore a significant benefit, but there has to be a certain element of trust (no pun intended!) that they are using it correctly and appropriately (so I hope there is no 'live' testing going on!!).

RDG

[Chris Bailiss]

Hi all

I assume the Darwin "O" schedules must make their way into the NR systems in some way in order for the train to run.  From past experience, I've noticed some of the "O" services appearing in the NR data as VSTP messages.  Would we expect that all "O" services have a VSTP equivalent (using a different UID) ?

Thanks

Chris

[Peter Hicks]

Hi Chris

They'll only appear in TRUST if they're entered manually.  If a stop is cancelled, it's reported separately for PPM purposes, and if a stop is added in TRUST directly, it won't generate a VSTP message.  Those two events don't materially change how the signaller will manage passage of the service.

If it's an additional train, or it runs via a different route (e.g. a train booked for the main line via Wimbledon runs via Weybridge and Hounslow in to Waterloo), then the original will likely be cancelled and a VSTP input.  If the times for passengers don't change, it might not appear in Darwin - maybe a manual delay gets entered.

Peter

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[Chris Bailiss]

Thanks Peter

Re:

>> They'll only appear in TRUST if they're entered manually.

Is it possible/common that passenger trains arranged at short-notice aren't entered into TRUST / have no VSTP sent?  

I know of the limitations around cancelled/additional stops not being reported, but until now haven't considered the possibility of whole passenger services being not included.

Chris   

[Peter Hicks]

Hi Chris

On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 at 10:35 Chris Bailiss <cbai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it possible/common that passenger trains arranged at short-notice aren't entered into TRUST / have no VSTP sent?  

I know of the limitations around cancelled/additional stops not being reported, but until now haven't considered the possibility of whole passenger services being not included.

 

It's fairly unlikely a train wouldn't go on to TRUST at all - but it could happen if an operator loses their access to TRUST and has to run an extra train.  In that case, the rule is you create a VSTP for the train after it's run and report against that, because the data is used for track access billing purposes.

It doesn't happen very often for passenger trains, but shunt moves might not have a schedule filed in TRUST if the move isn't very long.  Trains at Euston to/from Camden Carriage Sidings almost always seem to have a VSTP schedule if they're short-notice, but since the move only involves one, maybe two panels on Wembley Mainline PSB, it could technically be carried out with local agreement.

If you look at Sheffield on https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/spc5, you'll see quite a lot of undescribed movements, such as 0S00, UNIT, SHNT, PLT1 etc. which are train movements, but not ones adhering to a schedule.

Peter