Rail Data Marketplace survey
Hayden Sutherland
https://www.research.net/r/RDMSurvey0322
Tom Cairns
Is anyone else thinking the word Marketplace makes the entire thing very worrying for the future of some of the previously mooted data feeds?
Tom
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Adrian Bradshaw
Yes... I thought so.
Adrian Bradshaw
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-------- Original Message --------
| Subject: | RE: [openraildata-talk] Rail Data Marketplace survey |
|---|---|
| Date: | 2022-04-05 15:22 |
| From: | Tom Cairns <t...@swlines.co.uk> |
| To: | "openrail...@googlegroups.com" <openrail...@googlegroups.com> |
Evelyn Snow
way onto an open data mailing list, too. I can't speak for anyone else but my
interest here is purely in open data.
Evelyn
2022-04-05T14:22:11+0000 Tom Cairns <t...@swlines.co.uk>:
Hayden Sutherland
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Tom Cairns
The Rail Data Council explicitly state on their web page, of which RDM is noted as one of its Key Initiatives: For clarity, we think of “open” meaning accessible, not necessarily “free” …
There’s not many data sets that are currently Open Data in the definition of how it’s defined on Wikipedia… I personally currently see RDM as a mechanism, particularly with the RDC caveat, as being a regressive step particularly with its branding.
Tom
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Hayden Sutherland
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Tom Cairns
I’m going to talk largely from my own personal “past hobbyist” viewpoint here and not the view of my company … I think it is worth airing this in a wider forum for visibility, rather than stating it in a survey where the results of it remain private or within a select industry group.
The survey itself seems similar to one that I recall seeing about a year ago. I have, personally, engaged with the RDM team – although I realise not yourself Hayden – over the course of the last 6-9 months or so. It appears that RDM does not have a guiding light other than being driven by the needs of the industry itself – and I’ve still yet to have a clear answer about what it’s really trying to achieve, whether it’s a discovery platform or a full on API platform, etc. Yet it has gone to tender and is in the process of being awarded as I understand it.
If RDM is trying to be a full on API one stop shop a la the TfL Unified API etc then this logically causes a higher cost basis for operation. Again, not a problem for those of us who can readily commercialise. But this is, really, a problem: the Open Data platforms successfully have driven a nascent group of developers who have learned and better understood the industry’s data – and in some respects better than the industry itself. There are quite a few people on this user group who are in that position. A lot of us would not have been able to do this without the doors being opened by the right people – a lot of credit needs to go to Peter Hicks and others on that – but the critical thing is that it was possible because it was free and it let the “hobbyists” play.
If the industry is trying to provide more data out “openly” but still charge for it, that’s not open. That’s gatekeeping. This is not necessarily a problem for some people, and if I was being selfish works OK for me with the benefit of where my own work now takes me. But it doesn’t work for many of us. I am indeed myself technically right now gatekeeping some data but I am trying to push for it to be more widely released to all.
If railway data is to be open, it should be open. There is no place for a marketplace if it’s truly open which is where this seems like we are heading.
There is an argument that there should be a discovery platform for value-added services around existing feeds – I can think of the likes of Signalbox who do great work. The industry would do well to better understand what it has enabled to create from people who simply don’t have the PR/lobbyists/contacts to tell it. That is where RDM may do well. However I been given hints from RDM team that the TOCs are actively considering commercial propositions and that is really concerning.
The industry should drive itself forward to be open, at no cost, and just see it as a cost of doing business. It may even in the long run reduce its cost base by introducing more people into the mix and increasing the number of experts (and thereby increasing available resource and decreasing costs due to flooding the market). The industry really needs to drive itself forward with some efficiencies in making itself more technologically driven through APIs and, as a by product, the only material cost centre in making it open is perhaps some obfuscation and some distribution costs. Those are negligible in comparison to the mental view that just the words “Rail Data Marketplace” drives towards.
Tom.
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Paul Kelly
It potentially answers some of the questions posed here, e.g. it says RDM does not plan to host data, which seems to rule out the idea of it being some sort of unified API. The most positive outcome I can envisage at present is that existing data sources continue unchanged and RDM becomes a showcase for some hobbyist-turned-commercial developers to get their API products in front of a wider cross-section of the rail industry.
None of the documentation on the RDM site or in the survey suggests charging for data sources that are currently free so I would be slightly concerned at the suggestion that this needs to be pointed out to RDG (in responses to the survey) as something that should not happen; hopefully it is fairly obvious to everyone involved already!
Paul K
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RailAleFan
As a potential example from my own work; since publishing nodeDarwinArchiver last August I set it up running, forgot about it and as of the middle of next month will have an [almost] complete archive of train running data for the period of the Winter 2021/2022 timetable.
In preparation for the Summer 2022 timetable I'm adding functionality to the Push Port consumer part of the process to log delay meta data and could potential expose this as an API / static dataset from which users could then go straight to periods of severe disruption on other platforms such as HSP or possibly made available somehow from my own archive.
On the subject of Darwin I had a bit of a grumble during the interview but as RDM will only be a "pointer" to the NRDP under the services provided by Rail Delivery Group section of the directory it wasn't really the forum for that but personally I'm hoping that the formation of Great British Railways will change things in terms of data being made open as a gift, to being made open as an obligation...
Tom Cairns
Now, that is where I thought it was going. However equally there appears to be talk about a sandbox from last time I spoke to one of the consultants involved, which I don’t know how they’re going to facilitate without hosting some data…?
The bizarre thing is that the entire way this was fronted was using a platform for data integration…
Tom
From: openrail...@googlegroups.com <openrail...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Paul Kelly
Sent: 06 April 2022 06:45
To: A gathering place for the Open Rail Data community <openrail...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [openraildata-talk] Rail Data Marketplace survey