Coach information.

[Peter Davies]

Hi,

I am trying to get coach information for trains.

Currently I am using the Rail Delivery Group ServiceDetails  service -

https://api1.raildata.org.uk/1010-service-details1_2/LDBWS/api/20220120/GetServiceDetails/{serviceid}

This is very good but only has limited coach formation information and it seems that few TOCs actually provide even that.

Also it does not include bike storage information.

Is there somewhere I can get this information or is it only available commercially or to the operating companies?

Thanks, Pete

 

[Matthew Burdett]

Hi Pete

You're right, only a few operators populate the data with train coach / toilet data and bike spaces isn't a part of the data set.

The February Rail Data Marketplace Newsletter said Gemini would be available Q1 this year (which presumably, is this month). I think that will have passenger related aspects like bike spaces and toilet availability. But I'm not certain . This has been something wanted for a while, understandably it's critical information for keeping passengers up to date with their journey. 

Kind regards

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[Peter Hicks (Poggs)]

Hi Pete

On 7 Mar 2025, at 18:41, Peter Davies <lava...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am trying to get coach information for trains.

Currently I am using the Rail Delivery Group ServiceDetails  service -

https://api1.raildata.org.uk/1010-service-details1_2/LDBWS/api/20220120/GetServiceDetails/{serviceid}

This is very good but only has limited coach formation information and it seems that few TOCs actually provide even that.

Also it does not include bike storage information.

Darwin has train formation information where it’s supplied to Darwin by TOCs.  It sounds like not many TOCs provide the information, which is a shame - and not something that can be solved overnight.

On the ‘additional information’ side of things, I don’t know of a dataset that provides information on what other facilities there are on a train.  Some operators have a guide to their rolling stock, e.g. GWR at https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/passenger-assist/2023/Facilities-Guide-May-2023.pdf - but you’ll need to work out train orientation if it’s not specified in the Darwin feed.

Is there somewhere I can get this information or is it only available commercially or to the operating companies?

It has been promised that a feed of rolling stock allocations will be released this quarter.  This will have (hopefully) unit numbers and individual vehicle numbers, although they will be what’s planned and not necessary what’s operating.  Not too much of an issue if you get 390033 on a service when you wanted 390050 (who thought that was a good idea for a name, eh?) - but if you get  a 9-car IET rather than two 5-car IETs, you’ll have a lot of wrong data.

Peter

[Evelyn Snow]

Hi Peter,

Detailed formation information currently isn't available as open data, with the exception of C2C's
live formations API, and whatever TOCs see fit to put into Darwin. This situation should hopefully
improve when Network Rail releases Gemini in this quarter.

Evelyn

[Gaelan Steele]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2025, at 6:49 PM, 'Peter Hicks (Poggs)' via A gathering place for the Open Rail Data community <openrail...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> It has been promised that a feed of rolling stock allocations will be released this quarter. This will have (hopefully) unit numbers and individual vehicle numbers, although they will be what’s planned and not necessary what’s operating. Not too much of an issue if you get 390033 on a service when you wanted 390050 (who thought that was a good idea for a name, eh?) - but if you get a 9-car IET rather than two 5-car IETs, you’ll have a lot of wrong data.

Oh interesting - is what we’re getting a different data source than the one RTT uses, which seems to get real-time updates at least most of the time?

Best,
Gaelan

[Peter Hicks (Poggs)]

> On 7 Mar 2025, at 19:07, Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com> wrote:
>
> Oh interesting - is what we’re getting a different data source than the one RTT uses, which seems to get real-time updates at least most of the time?

No, it’s the same feed of data at the same update frequency. I can’t comment on whether any of the data within will be redacted or not (hoping not), but it will make a lot of people happy that the data is more universally available.


Peter

[Jeskynar]

Will it be possible to determine the order of coaches? For example to know which end of the platform coach A is going to be. I would have thought this is critical information for loads of reasons such as knowing where a wheelchair is going to be able to get on/off. At the moment ScotRail (for example) can give correct formation information but not correct order.

Andrew

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[Peter Davies]

Thanks for all the responses; they are really appreciated.

I look forward to looking at what is provided from Gemini - assuming that it does arrive on time!

How do I sign up for the Rail Data Marketplace Newsletter?  Searched all over for it.

Cheers, Pete

[Matthew Burdett]

I think they send it out to everyone I can't see anything about subscriptions on the site.

Mentioned by Peter that RTT uses Gemini, is GBRf allocations a separate system, I thought Gemini was exclusively for Multiple Units, I'm not familiar with the software myself.

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openraildata-talk/c4bc6047-1fd4-463f-8b98-50a7e4d2165an%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Hicks (Poggs)]

> On 8 Mar 2025, at 18:04, Matthew Burdett <matthewbu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mentioned by Peter that RTT uses Gemini, is GBRf allocations a separate system, I thought Gemini was exclusively for Multiple Units, I'm not familiar with the software myself.

GBRf data presumably comes via TOPS, or a GBRf-specific system. Caledonian Sleeper use POIS so their consists might come from TOPS too, but they might also come from GEMINI if the vehicles are cut-over to GEMINI.


Peter

[Andrew Bolton]

(Replying in a personal context although for transparency I do work for GTR)

A word of caution here as I've been looking at some of the raw allocation data that gets fed into the industry systems - I'm assuming this will be the source data if/when the allocations go live (I have no insider knowledge here!).

Although there is an 'orientation' flag associated with the allocations that get sent into Gemini (via the Web Gemini Open Interface in GTR's case) and does get switched every time the train reverses, from what I've seen in our data is that the first allocation leg of the day will always be set as 'unreversed'.

Taking Great Northern as an example - this *should* be easy as the trains don't get reversed and the 387s have their first class at the country (north) end in the 421xxx vehicle. However, the orientation in Gemini depends on whether the first move of the day was towards the north or the south - trains can come out of Hornsey depot in either direction. The 'unreversed' orientation is the equivalent of saying the 421xxx vehicle is leading so if the unit's first move out of Hornsey is to the north, then the 'unreversed' orientation flag will be indicating that the 421xxx vehicle is at the north end of the unit (correct) but if its first move is to the south then the 'unreversed' flag will be indicating that the 421xxx vehicle is at the south end of the unit (incorrect).

The same issue is there for Southern with the added complication that units regularly get turned in service. Additionally, I have see another operator's data where they're not using the 'reversed' flag as all allocations are entered as 'unreversed'.

Still trying to come up with a simple way round this! I discovered this 'fun' when we were making some updates into the R2 database to ensure we had the flags for accessible toilets, wheelchair spaces, cycle spaces and first class set across our fleets as these are now being used by some CIS systems (SWR at Clapham Junction is an example) to display train diagrams.

Andrew

On Friday, 7 March 2025 at 20:18:06 UTC Jeskynar wrote:

[Peter Hicks (Poggs)]

Hi Andrew

> On 13 Mar 2025, at 13:32, Andrew Bolton <andrew.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Still trying to come up with a simple way round this! I discovered this 'fun' when we were making some updates into the R2 database to ensure we had the flags for accessible toilets, wheelchair spaces, cycle spaces and first class set across our fleets as these are now being used by some CIS systems (SWR at Clapham Junction is an example) to display train diagrams.

Have you fed this back to Worldline? It could be a simple case of a configuration change in GEMINI. Or, if the first two locations on the train’s schedule indicate it’s leaving to the north, flip the orientation before sending it to GEMINI.


Peter

[Andrew Bolton]

I'm catching up with someone in our customer information team tomorrow about various things and am planning to chat to them about it then - I know we regularly work with Worldline as they supply our CIS.

It still doesn't solve the issue on Southern though where the unit can legitimately be either way round at the start of the day...

Andrew

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[Matthew Burdett]

Hi

Someone posted in this group about the RDM newsletter. It's now easier to sign up at https://raildata.org.uk/dashboard/communicationPreferences

From a post in a recent RDM blog.

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