Bizarre Formation

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Mark Jenkins

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Sep 7, 2021, 5:23:44 PMSep 7
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Hi All,

Anyone else seen this before on Open LDBWS?

22:40 Dover Prioriy Via Tonbridge reports 8 coaches, but when I look at the formation data it shows 16!

Any ideas?

Cheers
Mark

json['lt4:length']
"8"

json['lt7:formation']['lt7:coaches']
Map (1 item)
0:"lt7:coach" -> List (16 items)
key:"lt7:coach"
value:List (16 items)
[0]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[1]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Standard"
[2]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Accessible"
[3]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[4]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[5]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Standard"
[6]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Accessible"
[7]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[8]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[9]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Standard"
[10]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Accessible"
[11]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[12]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"
[13]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Standard"
[14]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "Accessible"
[15]:Map (2 items)
0:"lt7:coachClass" -> "Standard"
1:"lt7:toilet" -> "None"

RailAleFan

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Sep 8, 2021, 8:11:51 AMSep 8
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Hi Mark,

This appears to be consistent behaviour in Darwin for this train, an example from last week attached - length showing as 8 at all locations but with a 16 car formation.

It is the last CHX > DVP service of the day; I wonder if it physically is 16 car (4 sets) but with only 8 in passenger service and the rest just being attached to head to back to depot after DVP orsomethinglikethat?

Cheers
202109017184076.json

Peter

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Sep 8, 2021, 8:16:39 AMSep 8
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Darwin is definately wrong. The platforms at Charing Cross, for instance, will only take 12 cars max and any more would block access to several platforms.

Peter

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Mark Jenkins

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Sep 8, 2021, 8:48:06 AMSep 8
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Thanks both... I was wondering whether they were return to depot.Β  Β At least one was cancelled and I also saw 10's that were a 20 formation (!) and that definitely wasn't going to fit at Charing!

Dave Burbridge

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Sep 8, 2021, 10:48:33 AMSep 8
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I've seen something similar recently on RTT, where a train was shown as a 22-car Pendolino... may have been a different cause, but it would have turned heads for sure!

D

Mark Jenkins

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Sep 8, 2021, 6:49:17 PMSep 8
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πŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸšˆπŸ’¨Β  Β πŸ‘€

Decided to have my app suppress the carriage information if the published number of coaches doesn't match the formation... seems safest!

Cheers all
Mark

RailAleFan

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Sep 9, 2021, 4:11:26 AMSep 9
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Other than prepare the graphics I've not actually coded for consuming formation data from Push Port as yet.

I'm holding out hope that the Rail Data Marketplace might bring some improvements in this area but other than the announcement not a great deal of info about what to expect...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/data-revolution-set-to-improve-rail-travel-for-passengers

Cheers

Dave Burbridge

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Sep 9, 2021, 4:14:28 AMSep 9
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I wonder how the various systems will deal with the weird trains now appearing in East Anglia - articulated sets with a half-length "thing" in the middle containing the power unit? (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_755 )
Is the 755/3 a four coach unit? or three coaches with a loco in the middle? (after all, the "thing" doesn't carry passengers - but they can walk through it.)

D

Peter

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Sep 9, 2021, 4:43:16 AMSep 9
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Dave,

Easy - they are a 4 vehicle set, one of which contains no passenger accomodation.

The small vehicle is NOT a locomotive - it cannot be driven except from the driving cabs. A locomotive is driveable in its own right.

Peter

Mark Jenkins

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Sep 9, 2021, 5:57:22 AMSep 9
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@RailAleFan If amenable I'd be interested to see how others are approaching the graphics, happy to share my work in progress.Β  I've been playing with 3 styles based loosely on real boards plus one of my own.Β  On that point don't laugh at the SouthEastern (blue theme) icons, looks like the hungry caterpillar and is poss heading for the chopping block πŸ˜‚πŸ›

@djbur In my case OpenLDBWS would just report carriages and whether or not a loo was present,Β so I'd be drawing 4 coaches, pointy end to the direction of travel (depart/arrive) and fill in any loos in the other carriages if indicated.Β  So it would take care of itself in theory!

Cheers
Mark

IMG_9604.PNGIMG_9602.PNGIMG_9600.PNGIMG_9608.PNG

RailAleFan

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Sep 9, 2021, 6:42:06 AMSep 9
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Nice!

For the PWA i've been experimenting with a 100% CSS design rather than using images; something along these lines...

formation_vt.png

formation_gw.png

Cheers

Mark Jenkins

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Sep 9, 2021, 7:46:34 AMSep 9
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Cool! Clearly you have more data to work with :)Β  Unfortunately OpenLDBWS isn't publishing carriage names for example so I only have the ordinal sequence in the data.Β  Β The "green" style above is loosely based on the KGX/EUSΒ boards where the amount of 'fill' actually relates to the reservation level, although I don't have the data for that - I use a separate 'average loading' indicator.

Screenshot 2021-09-09 at 12.43.44.png

RailAleFan

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Sep 9, 2021, 9:05:28 AMSep 9
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Hi Mark,

I don't think there's anything in Push Port that isn't available via the web services; I just worked on the designs using made up data.

I don't actually think I've seen formation/loading records for VT or GW at all as yet - I've got a slight concern about coach numbers with regards to what is / isn't of public context and how to tell the difference (e.g. coach "K" of a VT service has public context whereas A1 of a SE service doesn't mean anything outside of operational systems) hopefully there will be a way to determine this.

BTW dashboard is still online showing what is (or more accurately isn't) currently available...

. https://live-departures.info/rail/s.5ED4B8B093D30 .

Cheers

Mark Jenkins

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Sep 9, 2021, 9:27:54 AMSep 9
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Very interesting link, thanks.Β  SE leading the pack with formation and loading data.Β  Maybe there are some differences between PP and OpenLDBWS, eg: 15:32 Cambridge North to Kings Cross is giving some average loading (Great Northern).Β  Also 14:25 Brighton to Bedford (Thameslink) and 14:30 Brighton to Southampton Central (Southern).Β  Β It is a bit sporadic though and no formation data, that seems limited to South Eastern.

If you've got the app you can scan around services at random and should see the loading icon pop up, quick way of seeing what Darwin says the loading isΒ 

Cheers
Mark

RailAleFan

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Sep 9, 2021, 9:43:35 AMSep 9
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I've seen SE go green occasionally for scheduleFormations yes definitely leading the way!

Apologies the client currently handing the query for that dashboard isn't scanning for avgLoading, hadn't checked the page in a while have taken the column out for now...

Cheers

Mark Jenkins

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Sep 9, 2021, 10:06:57 AMSep 9
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Np, its useful to get an extra perspective! :)
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