Open Rail Data

[Linus Norton]

Hello,

Is anyone actively trying to push RDG or other organisations to open up more data?

There is quite a lot that is still closed and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it. The feeds I'm thinking of specifically are:

- IDMS data (standardised names for railcards, stations, routes and ticket types). The London Terminals part is available via data.atoc.org for some reason.

- RCS data (who can retail what and how, data for which flows are barcode friendly, which stations have a TVM)

- More up-to-date fares and timetable data. It goes into DTD every day, why not the open data?

- The national routing guide data

- Others?

Maybe one for Peter but what is the best way to approach them about this? I know plenty of people at RDG but they're mostly in RSP and not really up to speed with this sort of thing. Is it more NRE's area?

Cheers,

Linus

[Peter Hicks]

Hi Linus

RDG, basically ATOC and the various schemes evolved, are starting to become transparent and open.  Don't think that means that there's not a role for the community to play - you can't just release data and say "Hey, we're open" - you need to release data that people want to use and, ideally, starting with the data that is most valuable, otherwise it looks a bit like marketing material.

When you say that there's quite a lot of data that's still closed, I read that as "not yet open".  Taking fares data as an example, I bet there are two-way discussions that need to take place between RDG and the community to work through some of the issues surrounding correct use of data.  We're lucky to have a good example - the Darwin Push Port - which shows that complex, real-time data can be processed by the community.  But the fares data is more complex, despite not being real-time, so the detail surrounding the risks of being wrong are going to be quite different.

There's also the issue that, if you make the fares data sets 'free at the point of use', you may lose the cost-covering funds you get for distributing the data in the first place, especially to TIS manufacturers.  A way around that could (and I'm not saying this is right, but it's a start) be to mandate that you must use the paid-for source of fares data for selling tickets, but if you're not selling tickets, you can use the 'open' version, with probable caveats on data availability of the latter.

As for approaching RDG - there are some people from RDG who read the list and just by discussing it here will likely mean it gets read and filters up.  As with Network Rail, I'm not sure how effective starting with a top-down approach might be.

Finally, NRE used to have 'Developer Days', but the last one was about 18 months ago, and I think it's time to have another.  We've come a long way and there's more to discuss!

Peter

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[Linus Norton]

Hi Peter,

I appreciate you're trying to bring a balanced view but I still feel they should be pushed to open up more data. RDG run and maintain several complex IT systems, LSM (ToD database), NRS, LENNON and soon PMS - albeit with varying levels of involvement. Maintaining an SFTP server with some data should not be too costly. The fact that they already have a service but charge for access should make it easier to open up. The TOCs have to accept that it's a cost of doing business - if you want people to retail your fares or make apps to promote your services you have to make the data available. If the license would allow me, I would happily do it for them.

IDMS is literally some XML files in an S3 bucket. The time taken to remove the access restrictions would be minutes.

I don't really buy the argument that if they opened up the data they would have to explain it - if there are gaps they are unable to fill, the community can help them. As I have tried to do with fares data. Not to mention most of these systems do have documentation, it's just not publically available.

About the NRE day, I was there, it was good. I was very surprised they did not do another one. I mentioned it to someone at RDG and maybe they will pick it up with whomever organised it at NRE but apart from that who knows.

I believe you were involved in opening up some of the timetable data? How did this come about? Do you have any people I can contact?

Many thanks,

Linus