Train GPS data

[rich...@gmail.com]

When will train GPS location data become available? Will it be released sequentially as Operating Companies progressively make it available or will it eventually be released all at once?

[Peter Hicks]

Hello

I'm not sure on timescales, but currently LNER and Northern rolling stock are fitted with GPS devices and report movements to the industry GPS gateway.  TRUST takes a feed of this data for reporting movements at locations not covered by automatic reporting.

Coverage of all rolling stock will take some years to happen.

There are plans to make this positional data, along with rolling stock information, available in the latest release of the National Rail Data Portal, but from memory I think the "soon" that was posted to the group a few weeks ago has slipped a bit.

Peter

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 06:35 , <rich...@gmail.com> wrote:

When will train GPS location data become available? Will it be released sequentially as Operating Companies progressively make it available or will it eventually be released all at once?

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[Scott Pritchard]

I'm also keen on knowing about this, and recently got access to the Network rail data feeds (after months of being in the queue). I'd hoped that one of their feeds would provide GPS locations (or some sort of reference that could be mapped to a geographical location) but I'm unable to find it. I was sort of expecting that relevant 'sensors' or hardware along the tracks would trigger to let operational control know where a train is exactly. I thought the TRAIN_MVT_ALL_TOC topic might have it, but apparently it's not got what I'm looking for.

Do you know if any of their feeds provide GPS or cross-referenceable location data?

[Douglas Fraser]

Hi Scott,

As far as I know, given I have thought about this problem, currently the only way to have an idea of mostly where a train is is by using the TD feed (the Class C messages) which shows you when a train crosses thru a berth / signal (or the 'equivalent') and crossreferencing that with track diagrams which show the relative location of the signals. If you search the archives of this Group, you 'll find lots of messages about how to deal with the TD feed.

GPS is coming, but when I do not know - and for areas like Anglia, GPS is basically impossible due to issues with GPS signals. Eventually, I think a IoT solution to tracking trains more precisely (than through berth crossings) will be deployed.

There is no definitive reference for location data and precise lat/long. If you search the archives, there is a lot of info on how other people have done it - I've cobbled together my own database. Network Rail is working on a logical map of things like signals and their location, in a GIS format, but that project is not going to be finished for some time.

Doug

[Juhani Pirttilahti]

Hi Scott,

I've done something like this before with the Finnish open data. I linked train movement data on signalling level to geographic locations. And I was hoping to do the same with the data from the UK but my project got stalled due to issues with safety concerns. Some crucial information just wasn't available.

In short summary: the TD feed contains signal berths, some of which represent physical signals and sections of track. Using the signal berths, trains can be mapped to geographic locations. And it should result in more precision than when using the Train Movement feed. However, in order to make do this, additional metadata is required such as the coordinates of individual signals and how signals are linked to signalling berths. Network Rail actually holds this information, but it is not available to the general public because of health and safety, terrorism, etc...

-Juhani

[Rail Delivery Group]

Hi Scott,

As others have mentioned, there are genuine security concerns within the rail industry about releasing GPS data for trains.

RDG are currently in the final stages of the Train Location and Movement Services project which will enable Darwin to consume and use GPS data (where it exists) as part of its movement recording and forecasting capabilities and any consumer of a Darwin feed will immediately benefit from that when it eventually goes live (I'm concious we've been saying this for a while but it is genuinely getting close to release once some, hopefully, final TLMS performance issues have been resolved). But all consumers will see is the result of the GPS data (combined with Darwin's other data sources for train movements) on Darwin's actual and estimated timings for services and not the underlying GPS data itself.

RDG

[Juhani Pirttilahti]

Does this mean that the real GPS positional data (i.e. latitude, longitude, bearing and speed), as we thought was coming, is not coming then?

-Juhani

[Rail Delivery Group]

As it stands right now RDG has not been granted authority by our members to release the underlying GPS data. Discussions on this continue but ultimately the operators own this data and have the final say on when/where/if it is released.

[Tom Cairns]

That’s quite disappointing really, as a good few other railways across Europe do release the data at least for passenger trains where available. Evidently this hasn’t caused a substantial issue…

 

 

On 21/03/2019, 09:40, "'Rail Delivery Group' via A gathering place for the Open Rail Data community" <openrail...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

As it stands right now RDG has not been granted authority by our members to release the underlying GPS data. Discussions on this continue but ultimately the operators own this data and have the final say on when/where/if it is released.

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[Juhani Pirttilahti]

Yeah it's kind of disappointing. But nothing new in the industry.

I can tell about an example from Finland where our state-owned train operating company refused to share their own GPS data. This eventually led to bizarre situation where our trains have two GPS receivers, one for the TOC and the other for the traffic control. The GPS data collected for traffic control is released to the public, for passenger and freight (except for trains carrying military or nuclear materials).

-Juhani

[Peter Hicks]

There was once a time that Darwin would never, ever be opened up - not even the LDB Web Services - and now look where we are.

It's easy to criticise RDG and the industry, but much better to understand and communicate the reasons TOCs don't want to make their GPS data available - we can then challenge them constructively!

Peter

[Tom Cairns]

I don’t disagree with the statements of the past. However, my reading of the TLMS feed was that there’d at least be a rough and ready method of interpolating along a line of a planned line of route using some new data field (line of route was specifically mentioned) but my new impression is that all it’s going to change is the forecasting?

 

In any case it goes back to the age old issue of the fact that some of us cannot/refuse to Darwin due to the licensing constraints around forecasts and that by the letter of the licence we can’t pick and choose if we show other forecasts. I recall there being a conversation at the open data huddle in January that some entities have been allowed to pick and choose though which still strikes me as a little odd. Nevertheless, this goes back to a standing issue that some things that really should be published by NR as opposed to RDG (albeit in the ATOC side of the coin) and I think that GPS output (along with rolling stock info to some degree) should be one of them – which then goes back to Juhani’s point.

 

One of my increasing confusions as RDG comes more to the fore is where does the divide lie between Network Rail and RDG/the artist formerly known as ATOC? RDG are doing more data releases, which isn’t necessarily a problem, but if they’re getting more into the realms of infrastructure and movement based reporting then there should be a reconsideration of the licences under which they publish.

 

The UK remains, in my opinion, one of the best countries for rail open data but while there are constraints being applied on use of data there is a constraint on potential innovation and cost reductions for the industry. NR certainly seemed keen to look back to us to see where we can help and refrain from reinventing the wheel while we in the community can do so where we want to (as we’re not so cost constrained) using what’s available: sometimes we may do it better, may do it worse, etc.

 

Tom

[Toby Webb]

Hi Everyone, 

We've created a live train locations map. It's available on our website, "https://www.signalbox.io"  (click the "live train map" button)

The map shows the real-time locations of all passenger trains in Great Britain, estimated by our API (Signalbox API). 

Any feedback you can give and ideas for improvements/new features would be very much appreciated. 

Best wishes

Toby

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[mi...@a1publishing.com]

One quick look and I think it's excellent.  Not sure about the .io domain name though (only joking!)  Very good, next time I'm on a train I'm gonna check it out more.

[Michael Flynn]

HI again Toby,

I took another look and I see now it's an api, I hadn't realised.  

I think you have a good service (and I'm sure it works) and I'd maybe even use it myself.  I publish websites.  It would work great on my live train times site for example.  Many a time I've been aware my app was just rubbish whilst sitting on a train.  

If I were to use your service though it would probably only be as a stopgap and with a view to develop my own tracker.  

I suspect most developers would be the same though and I do wonder whether your business model is a good one.  The bigger companies, not just on price, but on security and other factors, would surely want their own in-house systems too.  I'm just not sure there are enough long term customers out there for you.  But, like I say, I publish websites rather than provide api services and I could easily be wrong.  And I certainly will not be ruling out subscribing at some point in the future.

[Toby Webb]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for your feedback and I’m glad you like Signalbox’s map and API.  

The reason companies are using Signalbox are:

• Performance - we focus on getting the best performance and using our proprietary machine learning algorithm can match location to trains, even with limited information.  
• Cost - it’s more cost-effective for firms to use our technology, which is established and proven.
• Security/privacy - we are GDPR compliant.

 

We will be releasing a new version of the API and map soon with exciting new changes. I’ll post an update on the forum.

 

Best

 

Toby