Placements off slightly

[zzimdog]

Hi Everyone,

I just replaced both cameras on my liteplacer with ELP Cameras recommended. I think I have been back through all the required calibration through I&S. I am still having issues with bottom vision and it skewing components and then placing them crooked. I ended up disabling it so I could get some boards done. 

I am now trying to figure out what the issue is. I have covered one of my boards with graph paper with 3mm spacing. I then ran 4 parts spaced by 3mm all with 90 degree rotation I then moved up from this another 3mm and started at 0 deg all the way to 360. These are 603 resistors. andthere is double sided tape on the graph paper. I also went ahead and enabled the contact probing.

It does not appear that the cameras or the contact nozzle has really changed anything and not sure what else to try. When I move the camera to a location and then move the probe to a location it seems to be exactly in the center of the part. When I pick a part and place it however it places a substantial number off center. 

This little video is with vision composting set to automatic and the bottom vision entry blank which appears to be stock bottom vision. 

Any suggestions. In the video you can see the cross hairs are not in the center of the parts but closer to an edge. 

All vision stuff should be stock. I haven't figured out how to work with the pipeline stuff yet. 

[mark maker]

Check if you have Vision Offsets on the package / Bottom Vision Settings. Note, in earlier versions of OpenPnP it was all too easy to accidently press the Detect Offsets button, i.e. confuse it with the Test Alignment button. That's why it is now protected and disabled by default.

If that happened earlier, the offsets were still migrated to the new version!

_Mark

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[Mike Z]

Mark I checked vision offsets on all the packages. They are all greyed out and at 0.  When I was building yesterday I did the first couple boards by just stepping through all the parts one at a time. I turned on "rotate parts prior to vision" on the bottom vision settings. I think that helped as now with stock bottom vision settings the 603 resistors are placed better. I had noticed that when it would place them off pad the camera would show the center point not lined up with the actual center of the nozzle attached is a picture of this. I am running boards today so will see if it continues working. 

Are there any default setting guides for the nozzle tip settings for the standard size nozzles shipped with the light placer? I am thinking maybe this is part of the problem as it sounds like the vision masking etc is based off of this. I have been fiddling with different sizes for min, max part diameter and pick tolerance. I&S complains if I make the min smaller than 2.5 on my smallest tip though that seems larger than I would expect. Vision diameter is .488. 

I ended up disabling bottom vision for all the larger parts as it seems to place them better with it off. I am guessing I will need to figure out the pipeline stuff before I can enable them as it will work fine sometimes and then extremely bad all of a sudden and place stuff at an angle, horizontal when it should be vertical or even 180 degrees from where it should be. Needless to say, it is a little scary finding a 50v electrolytic backwards :)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/75e26cf6-8823-48fb-8a72-d6e5fdfb9b2d%40makr.zone.

[mark maker]

> Are there any default setting guides for the nozzle tip settings for the standard size nozzles shipped with the light placer?

Not specifically, though others on the list might help with their proven settings 😎.

It is documented in the Wiki, not only what these mean, but also how they are constrained by each other, for instance by Max. Pick Tolerance, which will likely explain why you can't set the Min. lower than 2.5mm:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration

If this does not help, please point to what exactly is not explained well, so we can improve the Wiki.

> I turned on "rotate parts prior to vision" on the bottom vision settings. I think that helped as now with stock bottom vision settings the 603 resistors are placed better.

Yes, "rotate parts prior to vision" is strongly recommended. But this symptom also uncovers a possible other reason:

It sounds like nozzle tip calibration is not enabled. Have you followed I&S all the way? Including nozzle tip calibration?

https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup

Is it set to be triggered at least OnMachineHoming?

> I am guessing I will need to figure out the pipeline stuff before I can enable them as it will work fine sometimes and then extremely bad all of a sudden and place stuff at an angle, horizontal when it should be vertical or even 180 degrees from where it should be. Needless to say, it is a little scary finding a 50v electrolytic backwards :)

Huh? If this really happens, then look for other reasons too, like vacuum not strong enough to hold the parts, rotation acceleration too high, rotation blocked by tubing, or the controller silently limiting rotation because it is configured wrong (Duet does that).

If you fear heavy parts is slipping on the nozzle, note there is a Speed % column in  the part table (should be in packages), where you can reduce the speed and acceleration for these few heavy parts. Be sure to use one of the better Motion Control types on the driver that can actually shape acceleration, i.e. ConstantAcceleration or better:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type

_Mark

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CAJ9bMN62TNZyd2PJ_F5gvBq6mvF3ugj6JSONUihfdUSTxu2dbg%40mail.gmail.com.

[zzimdog]

Thanks Mark your help is greatly appreciated

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:31 AM 'mark maker' via OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Are there any default setting guides for the nozzle tip settings for the standard size nozzles shipped with the light placer?

Not specifically, though others on the list might help with their proven settings .

I would appreciate anyone who has some proven settings 

It is documented in the Wiki, not only what these mean, but also how they are constrained by each other, for instance by Max. Pick Tolerance, which will likely explain why you can't set the Min. lower than 2.5mm:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration

If this does not help, please point to what exactly is not explained well, so we can improve the Wiki.

Nothing needs changed on the documentation that I have seen so far. Other than it gets confusing at least to me in some parts as to what can be adjusted and what should not be with the implementation of I&S. I understand what it is saying as far as being minus 2 times the pick tolerance. I set it start building and get errors with the camera vision as the offset is further than the allowed pick error and it keeps getting changed. 

> I turned on "rotate parts prior to vision" on the bottom vision settings. I think that helped as now with stock bottom vision settings the 603 resistors are placed better.

Yes, "rotate parts prior to vision" is strongly recommended. But this symptom also uncovers a possible other reason:

It sounds like nozzle tip calibration is not enabled. Have you followed I&S all the way? Including nozzle tip calibration?

I have followed it all the way. I even went through and enabled contact probing finally though I am have only built about 4 boards since enabling this and not sure if I benefit as the extra contact is sometimes sticking black tape parts with the holes to the double sided tape below. But after enabling this I also setup the touch location and auto z calibration on nozzle tip change.  Regular calibration on all tips was set to calibrate machine home but have now changed this to nozzle tip change also. 

https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup

Is it set to be triggered at least OnMachineHoming?

> I am guessing I will need to figure out the pipeline stuff before I can enable them as it will work fine sometimes and then extremely bad all of a sudden and place stuff at an angle, horizontal when it should be vertical or even 180 degrees from where it should be. Needless to say, it is a little scary finding a 50v electrolytic backwards :)

Huh? If this really happens, then look for other reasons too, like vacuum not strong enough to hold the parts, rotation acceleration too high, rotation blocked by tubing, or the controller silently limiting rotation because it is configured wrong (Duet does that).

 

 

If you fear heavy parts is slipping on the nozzle, note there is a Speed % column in  the part table (should be in packages), where you can reduce the speed and acceleration for these few heavy parts. Be sure to use one of the better Motion Control types on the driver that can actually shape acceleration, i.e. ConstantAcceleration or better:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type

I do not think any of these things are the issue. I do not have this problem with bottom vision disabled. I am running at a slow speed I believe though I am not sure what speeds the light placer is capable of. There are no steps left in I&S for me to complete. I accepted all suggestions it made to me so it set it to async driver and simpleSCurve

With what I am seeing on the camera when doing bottom vision I am pretty sure I need to figure out the pipelines. I will see the red rectangles for instance not snug the part or the camera will take longer than normal or make more moves before it moves to place the part. I have gone in and set some specialized settings for certain parts and am playing around with that to see if I can figure what to adjust. Attached are some images of placements with bottom vision enabled. The smallest parts are 603. I think all of the ones that are crooked are when the bottom camera does not see things correctly and for some reason will place the part instead of error like it normally does. Also it quite often will try to place even if a part is not on the nozzle. it will size a little rectangle on part of the tip from what I am seeing and then carry on. Not sure if this can be stopped.  

[zzimdog]

Mark do you recommend changing out the tinyG for a smoothie board? I do not really plan on adding anything though I am wondering if turning on and off the lights would be helpful with the errors I am seeing.

[Mark]

> Mark do you recommend changing out the tinyG for a smoothie board?

No, TinyG is now quite well supported:

https://makr.zone/tinyg-new-g-code-commands-for-openpnp-use/577/

and arguably the S-Curves are very much needed for the shaky hardware (I have a Liteplacer myself).

Plus Tony Luken is on the list and he knows a lot about how to configure TinyG.

> With what I am seeing on the camera when doing bottom vision I am pretty sure I need to figure out the pipelines. I will see the red rectangles for instance not snug the part

Set the machine to TRACE logging level, enable debug images, then send them:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-do-i-turn-on-debug-logging

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-can-i-get-a-native-camera-image

_Mark

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/d1983b2a-0b4d-4f07-bcf3-77c3ca528756n%40googlegroups.com.

[zzimdog]

Ok I will stick with the tinyG. I ran 10 more boards of this set before I switch over and they went pretty decent though would still get the non conforming rectangles around objects. I ended up just creating specialized vision that was part specific especially on the 603 caps as it seemed that the slight color variations or something throws it off. Mostly I would just adjust the threshold and contrast and that would fix them. a couple i changed convertColor to some grey setting which seemed to help. I also noticed that when it would place just a little off the nozzle tip would be slightly exposed and picked up in the image adjusting the threshold or coloring it with a marker helped with that. I used a sharpie to blacken a whole nozzle and that made it worse as it looked nice and smooth to my eyes but under vision it looked like  a craggy rock formation. I cleaned it back off and then it just had a couple spots that would pick up in the vision and throw things off. 

I also tried switching to the largest nozzle a particular part could use to see if it helped with maybe the part moving. This actually made things worse so will probably switch them back. I am guessing that it has to do with the part sizes I have set on the nozzles. I am also going to redesign the camera mount shade for these new cameras. I had just downloaded one for the new liteplacer cameras and then modified it to fit this foot print. I think the shade part is so thick though not much light is getting through. I don't think it causes any of the problems I am seeing here but I am having problems with seeing the holes on black tape now and that was never a problem before. 

Attached are the files you requested. I attached a couple of the actual images. The images just created from today's run was 1.2G when I zipped them up. Does openpnp clean any of these up or do we need to go in and delete them from time to time? 

My bottom camera unit to pixel shows .00902948 X and .00901759 for Y. not sure if you need this but I saw in one of your posts that it was helpful.

Thanks again for all your help. I think things are finally coming together where I won't need to spend as much time pushing parts around and it will start working the way it should. It is already better than it has ever been. I think If I can find a way to turn the lights off and on and I noticed on one of your blogs about adding a cap to the tiny g to maybe get vacuum sense working it will be a nice little machine. 

I was thinking that it seems if most people are using similar nozzles maybe some screen shots or a table with some default settings would be useful for people like me maybe under the first job setting or in the nozzle tip section of the wiki? I am not sure yet of course since I am just trying to figure out how things work but it seems like there is more to consider than what I am looking at which is setting  the part diameter to the largest diameter I think I would use that nozzle for? 

Mike

[Mr covert]

I found a blue paint marker worked better than a black Sharpe.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/d1d910bc-3126-4e18-ba76-8c70a98d77c5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jan]

Hi Mike!

On 01.03.2024 02:36, zzimdog wrote:
> Attached are the files you requested. I attached a couple of the actual
> images. The images just created from today's run was 1.2G when I zipped
> them up. Does openpnp clean any of these up or do we need to go in and
> delete them from time to time?
>

No, they are not automatically removed. This are debug images. If you
don't need them, you shall disable them by disabling the respective
stages in the vision pipeline.
According to the images you've attached, I'd say that background
subtraction/removal does not work. The structures you're interested in
(the shiny component caps and legs) appear to be of the same intensity
as some structures on the nozzle tip with respect to the cameras view.
This makes them hard to distinguish and remove automatically.
You should make sure that your nozzle tip and the surrounding is
non-reflective and black. Your lighting has to be oriented such that no
reflected light will reach the camera.
On a good setup, you can play around with the threshold slider and
observe a rather large range in which background is removed entirely
before parts are cropped off as well. Remember, that after background
removal/threshold the shiny part of the parts shall remain unaffected
allowing bottom vision to calculate a surrounding rectangular.

Jan

> On Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 8:47:18 AM UTC-6 ma...@makr.zone wrote:
>

> /> Mark do you recommend changing out the tinyG for a smoothie board? /

>
> No, TinyG is now quite well supported:
>
> https://makr.zone/tinyg-new-g-code-commands-for-openpnp-use/577/
> <https://makr.zone/tinyg-new-g-code-commands-for-openpnp-use/577/>
>
> and arguably the S-Curves are very much needed for the shaky
> hardware (I have a Liteplacer myself).
>
> Plus Tony Luken is on the list and he knows a lot about how to
> configure TinyG.
>

> /> With what I am seeing on the camera when doing bottom vision I am

> pretty sure I need to figure out the pipelines. I will see the red

> rectangles for instance not snug the part/

>
> Set the machine to TRACE logging level, enable debug images, then
> send them:
>

> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-do-i-turn-on-debug-logging <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-do-i-turn-on-debug-logging>
>
> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-can-i-get-a-native-camera-image <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#how-can-i-get-a-native-camera-image>

>
> _Mark
>
> On 29.02.2024 04:16, zzimdog wrote:
>> Mark do you recommend changing out the tinyG for a smoothie board?
>> I do not really plan on adding anything though I am wondering if
>> turning on and off the lights would be helpful with the errors I
>> am seeing.
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 9:14:16 PM UTC-6 zzimdog wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Mark your help is greatly appreciated
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:31 AM 'mark maker' via OpenPnP
>> <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>

>> /> Are there any default setting guides for the nozzle tip

>> settings for the standard size nozzles shipped with the

>> light placer?/

>>
>> Not specifically, though others on the list might help
>> with their proven settings 😎.
>>

>> I would appreciate anyone who has some proven settings
>>
>>
>> It is documented in the Wiki, not only what these mean,

>> but also how they are /constrained /by each other, for
>> instance by *Max. Pick Tolerance*, which will likely

>> explain why you can't set the Min. lower than 2.5mm:
>>

>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration>
>>
>> If this does not help, please point to what /exactly/ is

>> not explained well, so we can improve the Wiki.
>>
>> Nothing needs changed on the documentation that I have
>> seen so far. Other than it gets confusing at least to me
>> in some parts as to what can be adjusted and what should
>> not be with the implementation of I&S. I understand what
>> it is saying as far as being minus 2 times the pick
>> tolerance. I set it start building and get errors with the
>> camera vision as the offset is further than the allowed
>> pick error and it keeps getting changed.
>>

>> /> I turned on "rotate parts prior to vision" on the

>> bottom vision settings. I think that helped as now with
>> stock bottom vision settings the 603 resistors are placed

>> better./
>>
>> Yes, "rotate parts prior to vision" is *strongly
>> recommended*. But this symptom also uncovers a possible

>> other reason:
>>
>> It sounds like nozzle tip calibration is not enabled. Have
>> you followed I&S all the way? Including nozzle tip
>> calibration?
>>
>> I have followed it all the way. I even went through and
>> enabled contact probing finally though I am have only built
>> about 4 boards since enabling this and not sure if I benefit
>> as the extra contact is sometimes sticking black tape parts
>> with the holes to the double sided tape below. But after
>> enabling this I also setup the touch location and auto z
>> calibration on nozzle tip change.  Regular calibration on all
>> tips was set to calibrate machine home but have now changed
>> this to nozzle tip change also.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188

>> <https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188>
>>
>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup>
>>
>> Is it set to be triggered at least *OnMachineHoming*?
>>
>>
>> /> I am guessing I will need to figure out the pipeline

>> stuff before I can enable them as it will work fine
>> sometimes and then extremely bad all of a sudden and place
>> stuff at an angle, horizontal when it should be
>> vertical or even 180 degrees from where it should be.
>> Needless to say, it is a little scary finding a 50v

>> electrolytic backwards :)/

>>
>> Huh? If this really happens, then look for other reasons
>> too, like vacuum not strong enough to hold the parts,
>> rotation acceleration too high, rotation blocked by
>> tubing, or the controller silently limiting rotation
>> because it is configured wrong (Duet does that).
>>
>> If you fear heavy parts is slipping on the nozzle, note

>> there is a *Speed %* column in  the part table (should be

>> in packages), where you can reduce the speed and
>> acceleration for these few heavy parts. Be sure to use one

>> of the better* Motion Control *types on the driver
>> that/ can/ actually shape acceleration, i.e.
>> *ConstantAcceleration* or better:
>>
>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type>

>>
>>
>> I do not think any of these things are the issue. I do not
>> have this problem with bottom vision disabled. I am running at
>> a slow speed I believe though I am not sure what speeds the
>> light placer is capable of. There are no steps left in I&S for
>> me to complete. I accepted all suggestions it made to me so it
>> set it to async driver and simpleSCurve
>>
>> With what I am seeing on the camera when doing bottom vision I
>> am pretty sure I need to figure out the pipelines. I will see
>> the red rectangles for instance not snug the part or the
>> camera will take longer than normal or make more moves before
>> it moves to place the part. I have gone in and set some
>> specialized settings for certain parts and am playing around
>> with that to see if I can figure what to adjust. Attached are
>> some images of placements with bottom vision enabled. The
>> smallest parts are 603. I think all of the ones that are
>> crooked are when the bottom camera does not see things
>> correctly and for some reason will place the part instead of
>> error like it normally does. Also it quite often will try to
>> place even if a part is not on the nozzle. it will size a
>> little rectangle on part of the tip from what I am seeing and
>> then carry on. Not sure if this can be stopped.
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-6
>> ma...@makr.zone wrote:
>>

>> /> Are there any default setting guides for the nozzle tip

>> settings for the standard size nozzles shipped with the

>> light placer?/

>>
>> Not specifically, though others on the list might help
>> with their proven settings 😎.
>>
>> It is documented in the Wiki, not only what these mean,

>> but also how they are /constrained /by each other, for
>> instance by *Max. Pick Tolerance*, which will likely

>> explain why you can't set the Min. lower than 2.5mm:
>>

>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Setup-and-Calibration_Nozzle-Setup#nozzle-tip-configuration>
>>
>> If this does not help, please point to what /exactly/ is

>> not explained well, so we can improve the Wiki.
>>
>>

>> /> I turned on "rotate parts prior to vision" on the

>> bottom vision settings. I think that helped as now with
>> stock bottom vision settings the 603 resistors are placed

>> better./
>>
>> Yes, "rotate parts prior to vision" is *strongly
>> recommended*. But this symptom also uncovers a possible

>> other reason:
>>
>> It sounds like nozzle tip calibration is not enabled. Have
>> you followed I&S all the way? Including nozzle tip
>> calibration?
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188

>> <https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188>
>>
>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Nozzle-Tip-Calibration-Setup>
>>
>> Is it set to be triggered at least *OnMachineHoming*?
>>
>>
>> /> I am guessing I will need to figure out the pipeline

>> stuff before I can enable them as it will work fine
>> sometimes and then extremely bad all of a sudden and place
>> stuff at an angle, horizontal when it should be
>> vertical or even 180 degrees from where it should be.
>> Needless to say, it is a little scary finding a 50v

>> electrolytic backwards :)/

>>
>> Huh? If this really happens, then look for other reasons
>> too, like vacuum not strong enough to hold the parts,
>> rotation acceleration too high, rotation blocked by
>> tubing, or the controller silently limiting rotation
>> because it is configured wrong (Duet does that).
>>
>> If you fear heavy parts is slipping on the nozzle, note

>> there is a *Speed %* column in  the part table (should be

>> in packages), where you can reduce the speed and
>> acceleration for these few heavy parts. Be sure to use one

>> of the better*Motion Control *types on the driver
>> that/can/ actually shape acceleration, i.e.
>> *ConstantAcceleration* or better:
>>
>> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type <https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type>

>>> Check if you have *Vision Offsets* on the package /
>>> *Bottom Vision Settings*. Note, in earlier versions

>>> of OpenPnP it was all too easy to accidently press

>>> the *Detect Offsets* button, i.e. confuse it with the
>>> *Test Alignment* button. That's why it is now

>>> protected and disabled by default.
>>>
>>> If that happened earlier, the offsets were still
>>> migrated to the new version!
>>>

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/070a5395-b17b-4832-9ffb-8f4ec393efe9n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/070a5395-b17b-4832-9ffb-8f4ec393efe9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>> --
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/75e26cf6-8823-48fb-8a72-d6e5fdfb9b2d%40makr.zone <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/75e26cf6-8823-48fb-8a72-d6e5fdfb9b2d%40makr.zone?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>
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>>
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[Mark]

As Jan said, you need to make your nozzle black.

Watch this video:

https://youtu.be/Pxg6g3KI5_E?t=188

If your OpenPnP configuration (machine.xml) is old, read about how to
get the modern pipelines etc.

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Bottom-Vision

_Mark