Nema 8 hollow shaft 0.9 stepper
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SMdude
Jun 4, 2016, 9:52:28 AM6/4/16
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Hi All,
Just wondering if anybody has successfully sourced a nema 8 with a hollow shaft(or even a solid shaft)(6mm would be nice) and 0.9 degree steps?
I have searched for some time and not been able to turn anything up.
I think Cris at some stage mentioned he could get them?? But no links...
It would be nice to get the best step resolution possible on the nozzle. I noted in Glens Blog that it is good to have a bit of friction on the shaft to obtain more accurate microsteps.
Another trick I think I saw in a neoden video was to move the part into a square box and bump the edges to square it up on the nozzle.
Cheers
Just wondering if anybody has successfully sourced a nema 8 with a hollow shaft(or even a solid shaft)(6mm would be nice) and 0.9 degree steps?
I have searched for some time and not been able to turn anything up.
I think Cris at some stage mentioned he could get them?? But no links...
It would be nice to get the best step resolution possible on the nozzle. I noted in Glens Blog that it is good to have a bit of friction on the shaft to obtain more accurate microsteps.
Another trick I think I saw in a neoden video was to move the part into a square box and bump the edges to square it up on the nozzle.
Cheers
Lisandro B
Jun 4, 2016, 4:41:27 PM6/4/16
to OpenPnP
Can I ask why? everybody is using the standard ones with much success
SMdude
Jun 5, 2016, 3:12:44 AM6/5/16
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Is everybody placing 0.5mm bga's and the like? At the moment I am only using one BGA, but once I have the PnP up and running, my passives will get smaller and I will be much more inclined to consider using BGA's in other designs as well.
I don't want to be pushing my part rotation to the limits if possible as this is where things will go pear shaped.
None of the commercial desktop machines(neoden, smallsmt) claim to be able to accurately place 0.5mm parts, whereas some of the expensive machines boast really fine resolution on the nozzle rotation. Just trying to get the best of all worlds.
The other option is the gear reduction nema 8's with a good amount of friction on the output shaft to prevent the gearbox backlash from causing problems, and rotating the part one direction before moving over the camera to correct the alignment by rotating back the other way. This then would probably require that every part be imaged. It would be simpler if there were such thing as a nema 8 0.9deg stepper... Even if it wasn't a hollow shaft version, I can deal with that..
Cheers
I don't want to be pushing my part rotation to the limits if possible as this is where things will go pear shaped.
None of the commercial desktop machines(neoden, smallsmt) claim to be able to accurately place 0.5mm parts, whereas some of the expensive machines boast really fine resolution on the nozzle rotation. Just trying to get the best of all worlds.
The other option is the gear reduction nema 8's with a good amount of friction on the output shaft to prevent the gearbox backlash from causing problems, and rotating the part one direction before moving over the camera to correct the alignment by rotating back the other way. This then would probably require that every part be imaged. It would be simpler if there were such thing as a nema 8 0.9deg stepper... Even if it wasn't a hollow shaft version, I can deal with that..
Cheers
Michael Anton
Jun 5, 2016, 3:31:14 AM6/5/16
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Maybe you could use a centering jig to get higher precision. Make a jig that has a well with 4 parallel sides in a square, that are further apart than the largest part. Then bump the part into each of the sides, to center and rotate the part on the nozzle. This has been done for years on various machines, but I don't know what sort of precision can be achieved via this method, but it wouldn't be too hard to try.
Microstepping will increase the resolution of the stepper by about 8X, when there is no load on it, so that should help quite a bit, but 0.9 degree steppers would improve this by a factor of two as well. I couldn't find any either in the search that I just did. Perhaps this motor size is just too small to be able to get that sort of resolution. You could increase resolution with a belt drive system, as is done on a number of machines.
Cri S
Jun 5, 2016, 5:38:49 AM6/5/16
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Unipolar motor with linistepper work Better, then bipolar with 0.9 deg.
Sourcing normal motors and adding labour cost for drilling and threading it. Otherwise moq is 50 piece with custom shaft.
Sourcing normal motors and adding labour cost for drilling and threading it. Otherwise moq is 50 piece with custom shaft.
SMdude
Jun 5, 2016, 8:43:56 AM6/5/16
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HI Michael,
Yes, that is one good option, however, where it comes unstuck is if the board itself is not properly square in the holder. I think that 1.9 degree will work somewhat fine using microstepping, it just would be nice if there were 0.9 degree steppers available in nema 8. Guess I will end up going with the normal ones for simplicity sake and go from there.
Cri S, when you say "Otherwise moq is 50 piece with custom shaft" do you mean for unipolar motors, or for nema 8 0.9deg bipolar steppers?
If it was for nema 8 0.9deg, hollow 6mm shaft, I think, depending on price, that 50 would be achievable providing they worked as expected..
Cheers
Yes, that is one good option, however, where it comes unstuck is if the board itself is not properly square in the holder. I think that 1.9 degree will work somewhat fine using microstepping, it just would be nice if there were 0.9 degree steppers available in nema 8. Guess I will end up going with the normal ones for simplicity sake and go from there.
Cri S, when you say "Otherwise moq is 50 piece with custom shaft" do you mean for unipolar motors, or for nema 8 0.9deg bipolar steppers?
If it was for nema 8 0.9deg, hollow 6mm shaft, I think, depending on price, that 50 would be achievable providing they worked as expected..
Cheers
Cri S
Jun 6, 2016, 5:54:07 AM6/6/16
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With 50 piece moq on motors having 10 PC moq its possibile to get the shaft you design. I don't know situation for 6mm shaft diameter, that I need to ask, but for 50 PCs custom shaft is doable.
For both unipolar or 0.9m deg bipolar moq is 5 doing hollow shaft later. Price for that work is 80 to 100 euro for low quantity including motor qs testing.
Henrik
Jun 6, 2016, 9:08:47 AM6/6/16
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If you need really fine resolution on the rotation then I'd either look at a small servo motor or possibly one of the closed loop step motor solutions.
As for the NEMA8 with planetary gear reducers I'm probably stating the obvious but remember that there's probably not an easy way to get vacuum from the back shaft of the motor thru to the front shaft of the gear reducer. You'd need a belt drive or something between the output shaft and the actual nozzle - which you could do and get a bit of reduction (3:1 perhaps) directly without the added backlash of the reducer. Or you'd need to apply the vacuum at the front, which I think will be a bit of a mess.
/Henrik.
SMdude
Jun 6, 2016, 10:06:38 AM6/6/16
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Hi Henrik,
If possible I would like to just stick with a motor that can be connected straight up to the smoothie. I just don't know enough about this stuff to stray too far off the reference machines. Yes, AC servo motor would be ideal, but I don't know how to drive it using the smoothie.
Getting vacuum from a solid shaft is not too big of a deal. Turning things up on a lathe is something I am very familiar with and have access to. I posted in another thread a while back an idea for an adaptor that sits between the motor shaft and nozzle adaptor.
I really don't want to add belt reductions, or the complications of gear reduction, this all adds weight and takes up more space. I am planning on using Peter Betz's dual nozzle head if his design works out, so this really limits the motors to nema 8's with no room for extras.
Hi Cri S
I am trying to find out what the specific shaft size is for the Juki nozzle adaptors that Ray is having made up.
So, your saying you can get 0.9 degree bipolar nema 8 motors and then just machine the shafts afterwards. The 80~100Euro, is that to machine 1 shaft or to machine a batch of 5?
Thanks!
If possible I would like to just stick with a motor that can be connected straight up to the smoothie. I just don't know enough about this stuff to stray too far off the reference machines. Yes, AC servo motor would be ideal, but I don't know how to drive it using the smoothie.
Getting vacuum from a solid shaft is not too big of a deal. Turning things up on a lathe is something I am very familiar with and have access to. I posted in another thread a while back an idea for an adaptor that sits between the motor shaft and nozzle adaptor.
I really don't want to add belt reductions, or the complications of gear reduction, this all adds weight and takes up more space. I am planning on using Peter Betz's dual nozzle head if his design works out, so this really limits the motors to nema 8's with no room for extras.
Hi Cri S
I am trying to find out what the specific shaft size is for the Juki nozzle adaptors that Ray is having made up.
So, your saying you can get 0.9 degree bipolar nema 8 motors and then just machine the shafts afterwards. The 80~100Euro, is that to machine 1 shaft or to machine a batch of 5?
Thanks!
matt
Jun 6, 2016, 10:14:43 AM6/6/16
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5mm shaft for the Juki nozzles if i remember correctly - Ray did say the
other day
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Henrik Olsson
Jun 6, 2016, 10:28:20 AM6/6/16
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I was thinking more in the line of a small permanent magnet DC motor with an encoder. Most modern drivers (for PMDC or brushless for that matter) accepts step and direction as it control signals so as far as Smoothie is concerned there’s no difference – apart from the fact that you can’t DRIVE it directly from the Smoothie, just control it (you can tap off the step and direction signals to control external drives). But yeah, it does complicate things a bit.
I really do believe that using a gearbox with “lots” of backlash in it is going to add more problems than what the increased positioning resolution gives you. So yeah, if you find a NEMA8 with 0.9 step angle I’d probably be interested in buying a couple.
/Henrik.
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matt
Jun 6, 2016, 10:31:56 AM6/6/16
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What about this....
http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/item/stepping-motors--1068/pk-series-5-phase-stepping-motors/pk513pa?&plpver=11&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0#Specifications
On 2016-06-06 15:28, Henrik Olsson wrote:
> I was thinking more in the line of a small permanent magnet DC motor
> with an encoder. Most modern drivers (for PMDC or brushless for that
> matter) accepts step and direction as it control signals so as far as
> Smoothie is concerned there's no difference - apart from the fact that
>
> FRÅN: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] FÖR
> SMdude
> SKICKAT: den 6 juni 2016 16:07
> TILL: OpenPnP
> ÄMNE: [OpenPnP] Re: Nema 8 hollow shaft 0.9 stepper
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/openpnp/iuQ84JWxxYw/unsubscribe [1].
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http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/item/stepping-motors--1068/pk-series-5-phase-stepping-motors/pk513pa?&plpver=11&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0#Specifications
On 2016-06-06 15:28, Henrik Olsson wrote:
> I was thinking more in the line of a small permanent magnet DC motor
> with an encoder. Most modern drivers (for PMDC or brushless for that
> matter) accepts step and direction as it control signals so as far as
> you can't DRIVE it directly from the Smoothie, just control it (you
> can tap off the step and direction signals to control external
> drives). But yeah, it does complicate things a bit.
>
> I really do believe that using a gearbox with "lots" of backlash in it
> is going to add more problems than what the increased positioning
> resolution gives you. So yeah, if you find a NEMA8 with 0.9 step angle
> I'd probably be interested in buying a couple.
>
> /Henrik.
>
> -------------------------
> can tap off the step and direction signals to control external
> drives). But yeah, it does complicate things a bit.
>
> I really do believe that using a gearbox with "lots" of backlash in it
> is going to add more problems than what the increased positioning
> resolution gives you. So yeah, if you find a NEMA8 with 0.9 step angle
> I'd probably be interested in buying a couple.
>
> /Henrik.
>
>
> FRÅN: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] FÖR
> SMdude
> SKICKAT: den 6 juni 2016 16:07
> TILL: OpenPnP
> ÄMNE: [OpenPnP] Re: Nema 8 hollow shaft 0.9 stepper
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Henrik Olsson
Jun 6, 2016, 12:40:41 PM6/6/16
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Matt,
That's a very nice motor but it's a 5 phase stepper which means it needs a driver specifically for 5 phase motors - which, unfortunately, is far from as common as cheap single chip driver for 2 phase bipolar motors. Oriental wants $165 for their driver.
But yeah, if cost isn't much of a concern then it's an alternative for sure.
/Henrik.
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SMdude
Jun 7, 2016, 5:59:54 AM6/7/16
to OpenPnP, hen...@henriksplace.se
Hi Matt,
Nice find! Sure it is a bit expensive, but at least it is a real option, on the shelf ready to go. Little bit extra fiddling as it is a single shaft and not hollow, but there are ways around that if really needed. If Cri S is able to get bipolar 0.9 that are just plug and play into the existing hardware I think it will be a bit more cost effective and in the end, just simple
:D
Cri S The shaft size is 5mm. Ray said that the adaptor was made to suit 4.97mm and should be a tight fit on 4.99mm. At the end of the day, as long as it is not smaller than 4.97mm, a little bit can be sanded off the shaft to make the fit a little better.
Also to help fitting a tight nozzle to motor, freeze the motor and warm up the nozzle adaptor. Then fit quickly!
Cheers
Nice find! Sure it is a bit expensive, but at least it is a real option, on the shelf ready to go. Little bit extra fiddling as it is a single shaft and not hollow, but there are ways around that if really needed. If Cri S is able to get bipolar 0.9 that are just plug and play into the existing hardware I think it will be a bit more cost effective and in the end, just simple
:D
Cri S The shaft size is 5mm. Ray said that the adaptor was made to suit 4.97mm and should be a tight fit on 4.99mm. At the end of the day, as long as it is not smaller than 4.97mm, a little bit can be sanded off the shaft to make the fit a little better.
Also to help fitting a tight nozzle to motor, freeze the motor and warm up the nozzle adaptor. Then fit quickly!
Cheers
matt
Jun 7, 2016, 6:05:51 AM6/7/16
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Thanks - i'm trying to use all 5 phase motors on my machine with the
Oriental drivers - probably a bit overkill but at least i know they are
easy to replace if required and the gear is used on a lot of industrial
machines.
I'm going to grab one and hand it to my Dad whoose handy on the lathe
and see what he can do for making it hollow with an air line fitting
(like the RoboDig solution). Not sure if it would be of interest, but
i'm sure i could get a few done if needed.
>> [1]
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Oriental drivers - probably a bit overkill but at least i know they are
easy to replace if required and the gear is used on a lot of industrial
machines.
I'm going to grab one and hand it to my Dad whoose handy on the lathe
and see what he can do for making it hollow with an air line fitting
(like the RoboDig solution). Not sure if it would be of interest, but
i'm sure i could get a few done if needed.
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SMdude
Jun 7, 2016, 6:36:40 AM6/7/16
to OpenPnP
Hi Matt,
I have attached a picture of an idea for an air coupling I had a while back when thinking of using a nema 8 with reduction box for better resolution.
This would most likely be easier for your dad to spin up.
The orings will also provide some friction to the shaft to help with microstep accuracy.
I have attached a picture of an idea for an air coupling I had a while back when thinking of using a nema 8 with reduction box for better resolution.
This would most likely be easier for your dad to spin up.
The orings will also provide some friction to the shaft to help with microstep accuracy.
Graeme Bridge
Jun 7, 2016, 7:51:00 AM6/7/16
to OpenPnP
Didn't Andrew recently look at the reduction nema and there was almost 5º of play through backlash?
SMdude
Jun 7, 2016, 8:40:09 AM6/7/16
to OpenPnP
Yes, that is a big down side to the gear reduction.
However if sufficient friction is applied(tight fitting large o rings on the air coupler) so the nozzle can't move freely, then rotating in reverse first, and then rotating the other way until the part is aligned, the nozzle should not move.
However, it would be much simpler and nicer to just have a better step resolution ;).
However if sufficient friction is applied(tight fitting large o rings on the air coupler) so the nozzle can't move freely, then rotating in reverse first, and then rotating the other way until the part is aligned, the nozzle should not move.
However, it would be much simpler and nicer to just have a better step resolution ;).
matt
Jun 7, 2016, 9:31:29 AM6/7/16
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http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/item/stepping-motors--1068/pk-series-5-phase-stepping-motors/pk523pmb?&bc=100|1068|3001062
Think this one might be even better, it is slightly larger though 28mm
frame size (can't remember what nema size that is)...
0.36 degree basic step
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Think this one might be even better, it is slightly larger though 28mm
frame size (can't remember what nema size that is)...
0.36 degree basic step
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SMdude
Jun 7, 2016, 10:09:50 AM6/7/16
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Nema 11, size is not overkill for the advantage that it provides... That is a really nice stepper :D
Mark Harris
Jun 7, 2016, 10:10:43 AM6/7/16
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Yeah that is a very impressive stepper, I wonder how smooth/accurate their drivers are.
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