Frustrations with OpenPnP Configs using "Find Issues & Solutions"

[Developer Algo]

Just Thoughts:

Its really excruciating to configure OpenPnP using " Find Issues and Solutions" step by step. (Recommended way ) 

Followed each step by step meticulously  using only guidance of OpenPnP " Find issues & Solutions " and never deviated from that  but even with that said .  Its painful , a lot of things  related or connected to Vision break once configured or out of place. 

Its a never ending circus

e.g 

(1) Configured normal vision , then got to advanced Camera calibration and that screwed everything up from the Primary & Secondary   to Homing Fudicial. i had to go back reopen, do units to pixel measurements again and redo them step by step again 

(2) The initial configurations were ok until i got to replace ReferenceAutoFeeder with  ContactProbeNozzle.  this also messed the configuration.

I hope & wish the developers would have an easy , stable and better way to do this complex OpenPnP configuration without breaking some initial configs during advanced configuration that had already been configured. Yes, add on advanced configs but make sure it seamlessly works to upgrade or replace  the initial configs  without breaking the damn entire configuration.

Vision is one of the center piece of the entire OpenPnP configurations  yet its the most problematic.

Just Thoughts. I look forward to getting to the end of the configurations , its brutal.  

[jbussmann]

I went through some of this as well so although I can't improve Issues & Solutions, I might make your way to the end of the configurations a bit less brutal.

I have a LumenPnP and naturally I would follow their procedure. Skeptical of this, I watched this video and got the impression that I&S is a bumpy ride. I actually just revisited the video and realized that Mark commented on how I&S is misused in this video. :) Anyways, I was a bit scared and ended up using the guide by Opulo, which is also listet in the wiki as "3rd party step by step guide". It doesn't cover the very fundamental axis setup because they supply the machine.xml but you seem to have made it past that. It also doesn't cover any advanced calibrations but that's not strictly necessary either.

Bottom line to all this: it doesn't take all too much to get a machine running and assembling 0603s and larger, above guide covers the necessary steps for that. I&S is extremely powerful, can be overwhelming and most things are not strictly necessary. There is still a lot that I have never touched because I don't understand what it will do to the machine configuration. If your machine is running and the offsets are fine, then use it and learn the advanced stuff as you go. I think the only advanced calibration I have used so far is for nozzle offset, because it's just so simple and very accurate. Yes, I might miss out on a lot of potential of the hardware and software, but at least it is running and I'm still sane. :)

Happy configuring and enjoy when it runs. :)

[Developer Algo]

Is there a way to configure advanced Camera calibration without going through the initial configuration options that get overwritten anyway and creates a total mess. Advanced Camera calibrations indicates its going to replace several tabs that are used to configure the initial camera configs 

[Developer Algo]

My main pain has been advanced camera calibration or generally vision and how the modifications creates havoc on the configurations. i am only using what is needed and nothing more. 

[jbussmann]

That's my hole point. The machine runs just fine without advanced camera calibration.

[Developer Algo]

Funny thing as test: i decided to use same fiducial for Primary  & Homing  and  Secondary ( but at different Z -level) . Primary & Secondary  calibration Fail but Homing Works . Same Top Camera. Same machine . i have started over with "issues & Solutions" so many times i have lost count. I am at a point where i feel like dumping OpenPnP for good but there is no alternatives out there that is opensource 

[tonyl...@gmail.com]

>Is there a way to configure advanced Camera calibration without going through the initial configuration options that get overwritten anyway and creates a total mess.

Yes, you can go to the Advanced Calibration tab for the camera and run it manually from there. Just start at the top of the tab and work your way down to the Start Calibration button. Once you click on that, it should walk you through the process with instructions appearing below the camera views. 

Note that in any case, Advanced Camera calibration should not be overwriting initial configuration options. When Advanced Camera Calibration is enabled, it may override some of the initial configuration options, but you should always be able to disable Advanced Camera Calibration on the Advanced Calibration tab for the camera by just unchecking the "Enabled advanced calibration to override old style image transforms and distortion corrections settings" checkbox. That should restore everything to what it was before Advanced Camera Calibration was run.

Also note that Advanced Camera Calibration is probably the most stressing test of your total machine (electrical, mechanical, optical, lighting, etc.). If it is not working correctly, you would probably be much better off figuring out what is causing the problem and fixing it before you attempt to run jobs and discover you have problems.

>  Primary & Secondary  calibration Fail

Can you be more specific? What exactly is failing? Please post logs (with the Log Level set to TRACE) when it fails along with your machine.xml file.

[Developer Algo]

I did ask before what the order of configuring fiducials should be and i was told the order is :  (1) Primary, (2) Secondary and (3) Homing Fiducial. Every time i power up my PnP machine before i can  continue to configure it using "Issues & Solutions" it requires me to home   it every time   (i am using a Homing Fiducial ). So that needs to be working before Primary & Secondary fiducial. i will post as soon as i get to the machine and collect the logs 

[tonyl...@gmail.com]

>  Every time i power up my PnP machine before i can  continue to configure it using "Issues & Solutions" it requires me to home   it every time   (i am using a Homing Fiducial ). So that needs to be working before Primary & Secondary fiducial.

Just go to the Configuration tab for your head and set Homing Method to None (and hit the Apply button in the lower right). Then you can home the machine without a homing fiducial.

[Developer Algo]

After a few tries and a  little tweak i am able to configure Primary, Secondary & Homing fiducial correctly  . The issue was my initial Camera calibration.  Well now the pain train continues along the pain rail which is OpenPnP

[Toby Dickenson]

> >Is there a way to configure advanced Camera calibration without going through the initial configuration options that get overwritten anyway and creates a total mess.
>
> Yes, you can go to the Advanced Calibration tab for the camera and run it manually from there. Just start at the top of the tab and work your way down to the Start Calibration button. Once you click on that, it should walk you through the process with instructions appearing below the camera views.

In my experience you can't always mix I&S configuration actions with
the equivalent actions elsewhere in the Machine Setup GUI. Advanced
Camera Calibration is one of those.

It uses some attributes that are only set during other I&S stages, and
not exposed in the gui. I reported a problem here, and for me the
effective solution was to do everything within I&S
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/e0ae0d23-7e46-4376-a023-f7b2cfd173cd%40makr.zone?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

Toby

[Roland Exler]

I won't complain about OpenPnP. From my experience the critical thing with all machine vision is the lighting of the scene. And this will be different in different locations of the head. There is a good chance you have some reflections or shadows disturbing the functionality of the vision pipeline. Besides magnetisation of my nozzles by the magnets I used to mount my strip feeders light is the only thing I had to care about, especially for the advanced camera calibration. All the remaining setup went fine using I&S.

Roland

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[Mike Menci]

I do agree with Roland especially if you are running your machine in the room near a big window with sun shining or large lights on top of the machine, than vision will not always work - and the settings will need to change, but many people do not know this today and expect vison to work out of the "BOX".
You can mark out auto camera calibration and you will be beck to normal camera window for adjustments - if needed. 

Mike 

[Jan]

Hi Developer Algo!
I'm sorry to hear, that you're facing issues with Issues & Solutions.
To me its the most advanced and helpful component that was added in the
last years because it makes configuration and machine setup so much
easier compared to the old manual way (which you are still free to
take). Unfortunately Issues & Solutions was developed by developers
which obviously have fully configured and running machines and very good
understanding what to expect and how things shall work out. So their
view is limited by their expertise. That's why we are very much
interested in understanding what problems you're seeing and where they
are originating from.
For the future: it is always helpful to provide your machine.xml (which
allows others to see in what state your machine current is and what
Issues&Solutions is currently suggesting), the version of OpenPnP you're
using (there are manufacturers suggesting to install quite old versions
of OpenPnP that are very hard to support) and the latest log file,
preferably configured for TRACE level. See
https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#where-are-configuration-and-log-files-located
I'll put more comments between the lines.

On 29.12.2024 17:45, Developer Algo wrote:
> (1) Configured normal vision , then got to advanced Camera calibration
> and that screwed everything up from the Primary & Secondary   to Homing
> Fudicial. i had to go back reopen, do units to pixel measurements again
> and redo them step by step again
>

As Tony and others have pointed out, Advanced Camera Calibration is
optional and the most difficult part. If vision is not working
perfectly, it can easily fail generating strange results. I personally
have redone it a few times after my last camera upgrade. If you find the
results unsatisfactory, you can always disable advanced camera
calibration or redo the it. There is absolutely no reason to redo any of
the other camera related issues (except you change anything on it
hardware) Please note, that advanced camera calibration tries to
transforms the camera image into a corrected version which usually
implied a shift. If the shift is large and/or advanced camera
calibration indicates a large angular error, you shall consider fixing
the camera mount. In any case locations captured without advanced camera
calibration will stay unchanged where they where and the head location
is corrected when the camera is send to this locations. This way eg.
sending a nozzle tip to the bottom camera's location (using the bottom
right of the location) will likely indicate a shift while the dedicated
command in the (bottom) camera view "Move Selected Nozzle to Camera"
will take this offset (and others) into account.
It was also pointed out by others already, that visual homing shall not
be enabled until camera calibration has been completed. I'm confident
Issues & Solutions respects this order.

> (2) The initial configurations were ok until i got to replace
> ReferenceAutoFeeder with  ContactProbeNozzle.  this also messed the
> configuration.
>

I don't see how one can replace a feeder with a nozzle. That are
physically different things. Please explain what you tried to archive
and why.

> I hope & wish the developers would have an easy , stable and better way
> to do this complex OpenPnP configuration without breaking some initial
> configs during advanced configuration that had already been configured.
> Yes, add on advanced configs but make sure it seamlessly works to
> upgrade or replace  the initial configs  without breaking the damn
> entire configuration.
>

With user feedback like yours, Issues & Solutions can surely be made
better. This would be also a good starting point to contribute ;-)

> Vision is one of the center piece of the entire OpenPnP configurations
> yet its the most problematic.
>

Yes and yes! As was pointed out, usually problems arise from
insufficient background reduction and lighting. To me the best
modification I ever did was to put the machine under a hut. Since that
time I never faced any issues with vision again (related to background
and lighting, for sure I still have problems with missconfigured
pipelines and variations in the reflectivity of the lags of some package
bodies...)

> Just Thoughts. I look forward to getting to the end of the
> configurations , its brutal.
>

Yes, it is! Once you're through, you shall have a machine in good
working condition. We all have done that and we all had issues and we
all made it through, so will you! And be assured, that also for the big
guys setup and calibration is a lot of work with the only exception that
you can pay experts a fortune to do it for you...

Jan

[Wayne Black]

Unfortunately Issues & Solutions was developed by developers
which obviously have fully configured and running machines and very good
understanding what to expect and how things shall work out. So their

view is limited by their expertise.

This is well stated and the truth behind my frustration of trying to 'from scratch' build an Openpnp to hardware abstraction. I use I&S to debug issues when I modify things and dont get the expected result, but only as a last resort after no one has responded to my plea for help on this group ;)

I love Openpnp and the group :)

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black...@blackboxembedded.com

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[Developer Algo]

Thanks you guys for the helpful hints , well appreciated