Robotdigg feeder mounting block

[Bernd Walter]

Yesterday I've found that Robotdigg has two mounting blocks for Yamaha CL feeders.
Can't remember that they offered it last year.
Is there anyone with experience for that part?

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/1190/Pick-and-place-machine-Feeder-mounting-block

[Jason von Nieda]

Yep, I think that's new. I was recently looking for something like this and didn't find it. I'm going to get one and try it.

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[phon...@gmail.com]

I know the cheaper 25 plate, same as 30 plate where some feeders have greater spacing, that comes with the cheapest chinese pnp steel machine with missing cameras.

[Bernd Walter]

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 2:20:37 AM UTC+2, Jason von Nieda wrote:

Yep, I think that's new. I was recently looking for something like this and didn't find it. I'm going to get one and try it.

I got my 30 slot one today.
No vacuum applied yet, but already mounted on the machine.
It is basicly an aluminium block.
Front guide holes are pure aluminium and the guide pin might stuck on the soft aluminium.
The back side has a steel plate on top.
You need rubber sealings, they are not part of the delivery.
In the meantime the required sizes are on the product description page.
The sealings go onto the aluminium, then the steel plate is screwed on top.
This is done with 31 countersink M3x6 screws - flat head.
Only one was supplied, so get the screws from your favourite supplier.
Unfortunately my countersink M3 screws don't have a flat head and stick up a little bit.
My steel plate came a bit twisted, but I don't think it is an issue after all the screws hold it down.
Air inlets are common 1/8" threads, so get some pneumatic adapters.
The spacing is small, just for 8mm feeders.
I own a single 12mm feeder and it blocks the next slots for 8mm feeders on both sides.
A 12mm feeder very second slot should work.
No idea about wider feeders.


 

[Marek T.]

Nice. So it's needed 10 or 30 valves for this to buy separately? The valves are attached using pipes or there are some available to be screwed directly?

[Marek T.]

Bernd I need to build the block for Yamaha pneumatic feeders. As I know one of the options is the complete block like this, containing every valves already:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/YAMAHA-mounting-block-for-feeders-16-port-unit/1457082_2055215603.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.7e0f065fBmS2Gm
The block which you show from Robotdigg is an alternative option to above but requiring to buy and attach the valves separately? It's interresting for me what kind of the pneumatic valves you plan to buy for your block and what will be total cost of the whole set.

W dniu piątek, 6 października 2017 18:08:28 UTC+2 użytkownik Bernd Walter napisał:

[Michael Anton]

What is the spacing between the feeders?  I've been curious to know this for a long time...

It makes sense that they packed the feeders as close together as possible for 8mm feeders, as you would usually need more of those.  Wasting a slot for a 12mm feeder, or multiple slots for wider ones makes sense.  If they used a larger pitch, then you wouldn't waste as many slots, but you couldn't get as many feeders in either.

[Bernd Walter]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 10:54:36 PM UTC+2, Marek T. wrote:

Bernd I need to build the block for Yamaha pneumatic feeders. As I know one of the options is the complete block like this, containing every valves already:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/YAMAHA-mounting-block-for-feeders-16-port-unit/1457082_2055215603.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.7e0f065fBmS2Gm
The block which you show from Robotdigg is an alternative option to above but requiring to buy and attach the valves separately? It's interresting for me what kind of the pneumatic valves you plan to buy for your block and what will be total cost of the whole set.

Damn - I've written something, but obviously left home before sending.
The block has 1/8" inner threads on the bottom side.
I will use pneumatic adapters for 4mm outside tubes.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10X-Free-Shipping-PC4-R1-8-Pneumatic-4mm-Tube-Push-In-1-8-Quick-Connect-Fittings/1807855251.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.jyp2cl
And those valves:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-lot-Free-Shipping-Pneumatic-Airtac-2-Pos-3-Way-1-8-BSPT-Air-Solenoid-Valve/1176478193.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.jyp2cl
I already use the same valves for vacuum and they work pretty well for that.
Havn't done this yet, but you can put multiple valves side by side with an O-ring between.
The intake air/vacuum goes from side to side, the top side is the outlet to the nozzle or feeder and under the
cap is an air inlet to release pressure/vacuum from the outlet.

The link you've supplied - to my knowledge - is a used original.
The block quality is much better for sure.
 

[Bernd Walter]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:01:48 PM UTC+2, Michael Anton wrote:

What is the spacing between the feeders?  I've been curious to know this for a long time...

It is 16mm, just enough for the 8mm feeders with a small gap.

[Marek T.]

Thanks a lot Bernd!
Frankly speaking I was sure that one which I have uploded is also a Chinese copy! Hmmm, must check it, have this guy on the skype but didn't talk with him yet.

[Marek T.]

You were right Bernd, it's used original. However still worth to consider.
Could you pls write me dimensions of your 30-slots plate?. Specially thickness pls check with caliper if you didn't check this page with the Chinese feeders yet (as I know there were some problems with this in case of some Chinese blocks that didn't fit to feeders).
Cri, this your 25-slots block is available to buy separately? I expect that Bernd's 30-slots block will be to long for my machine.

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 1:37:32 PM UTC+2, Marek T. wrote:

You were right Bernd, it's used original. However still worth to consider.

Yes - I have no doubt that it is still much better quality.
You can't do wrong with them.
Anyway - the aluminium one should do it's business for me.
 

Could you pls write me dimensions of your 30-slots plate?. Specially thickness pls check with caliper if you didn't check this page with the Chinese feeders yet (as I know there were some problems with this in case of some Chinese blocks that didn't fit to feeders).
Cri, this your 25-slots block is available to buy separately? I expect that Bernd's 30-slots block will be to long for my machine.

Thickness was 15mm IIRC.
It fitted perfectly with the feeders I've had.
The only problem is that sometimes the front guide pin won't insert smoothly.
I'm not at the machine and can't check the length, but expect something around 500mm.
If you can machine parts I don't think it is difficult to clone the chinese style.
It is very simple by design.
Hope to get some matching O-rings next week, while waiting for delivery of the Y-rings.
Couldn't source the proper Y-rings locally.

If you are open to other feeders.
I've just ordered 8 dual lane 8mm Siplace feeders for 20EUR each plus shipping on EBay.
Not sure in what condition they will be.
Mark Harris made some interesting videos about their design.
Don't know what the signalling is, but replacing the electronic is an option.
Mark already showed his own PCB in one of his videos.

[Marek T.]

I rather prefer use non-original but new feeders, even if Chinese. I have one that feeder here and it looks rather good about the quality.
If they want $128 for this block, not sure if worth to clone it, just looking on price. Even if need it to cut it to make shorter.
Robotdigg has these Y-rings, understand you expected get the plate already completed and you didn't order it?
If it fits to the feeders then only lenght and width I need, specialy length.
Pls take dimensions when you will be at machine. Easy, I know it's Sunday today ;).

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 3:17:18 PM UTC+2, Marek T. wrote:

I rather prefer use non-original but new feeders, even if Chinese. I have one that feeder here and it looks rather good about the quality.

So far I only have 4 Yamaha feeders.
2x 8x4 1x 8x2 and one 12mm.
I've ordered them from the Charmhigh Aliexpress shop.
To my surprise they are all labeled "Made in Japan".
Just a few days ago they removed most parts from their Aliexpress shop, including the feeders.
Don't know why, maybe restructuring, or they concentrate on other sales channels.

If they want $128 for this block, not sure if worth to clone it, just looking on price. Even if need it to cut it to make shorter.

The blocks mounts on the ends with 6mm holes.
If you cut it you would also add your own mounting holes.
 

Robotdigg has these Y-rings, understand you expected get the plate already completed and you didn't order it?

I didn't know what to expect when I ordered and didn't ask.
They hadn't the plate on stock so everything took longer than assumed.
The link to the seals wasn't there when I ordered.

If it fits to the feeders then only lenght and width I need, specialy length.
Pls take dimensions when you will be at machine. Easy, I know it's Sunday today ;).

I work a lot from home, but will be at the machine some time next week for sure.

[Cri S]

The plate need to be 16.0mm thick and a lot of plates have ben
exchanged at no cost because real juki feeder cannot be mounted. I m
not surprised to see this 15-18mm plates
selling on some sites that was exchanged or was in stock at warehous before
switching to correct plate thickness.
Yamaha Feeder plates must be 16.0 mm thick at least at the inside
edge, 15mm deep.
Some clone feeders are made out of specs with 17.17 mm plates in mind, or maybe
it was crappy products that was stocked and for that thicker plates
was manufactured
because of production mistakes.

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[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 6:21:49 PM UTC+2, Cri S wrote:

The plate need to be 16.0mm thick and a lot of plates have ben
exchanged at no cost because real juki feeder cannot be mounted. I m
not surprised to see this 15-18mm plates
selling on some sites that was exchanged or was in stock at warehous before
switching to correct plate thickness.
Yamaha Feeder plates must be 16.0 mm thick at least at the inside
edge, 15mm deep.

Thank you for that info.
The feeders mounteded fine, but I've only measured with a ruler.
Will remeasure with calipers next time.
If it really is 16mm, then I have to lower my mount by 1mm.
 

[Marek T.]

Cri I'm little confused with your information. So the plate for original feeders must have thickness 16mm at the edge closer to parts picking? What about the thickness at the opposite edge? Can it be just everywhere 16mm then ok?

How about that "your" blocks 25-feeders that you mentioned, is this possible to buy separately or only wih some machine?

[Cri S]

>Cri I'm little confused with your information. So the plate for original feeders must have >thickness 16mm at the edge closer to parts picking?

Yes 16.0 mm, and this for 15mm depht.

What about the thickness at the opposite edge?

it don't matter as long it is not too thinn.
Look at the feeder,picture.
http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/sell/69/S00044769/Yamaha_SS_CL_FV_feeder.JPG

Can it be just everywhere 16mm then ok?

How about that "your" blocks 25-feeders that you mentioned, is this
possible to buy separately or only wih some machine?

It is possible to buy it separatly, it have the same size as 30
feeders, only that the left
feeders have wider spacings and the same mounting holes.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/2a6d5fc7-94d7-48fc-b00c-297c83464e80%40googlegroups.com.

[Marek T.]

That's clear now Cri, thanks.

So that plate also not perfectly matching to my machine. I need it for retrofited CSM46 where is no place for 30 slots. But can you share some link? If I must modify the plate it's always better to buy cheaper than more expensive... you know my mail if you prefere there for any reason ;).

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:18:44 PM UTC+2, Cri S wrote:

>Cri I'm little confused with your information. So the plate for original feeders must have >thickness 16mm at the edge closer to parts picking?
Yes 16.0 mm, and this for 15mm depht.  

What about the thickness at the opposite edge?
it don't matter as long it is not too thinn.
Look at the feeder,picture.
http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/sell/69/S00044769/Yamaha_SS_CL_FV_feeder.JPG

So far I have CL feeders.
I wonder how different the FV are.
On Aliexpress the FV feeders are less expensive.
Very obvious they don't come with the handle to carry and lock them in place.
But do they use the same mounting plate and pick location, esp. height?

The SS feeder clearly use a different mounting system.

[Marek T.]

I can only to tell that the only one Chinese CL-feeder that I have, checked today, perfect fits to my original plate destined for older Yamaha feeders (must only add pneumatic connectors to it). The thickness of this plate is 16mm and it seems be some standard of Yamaha. All feeders' sizes other than 16mm are probably accidents and luck or no luck if will fit... - moreless as Cri said above.

[Cri S]

>
> So far I have CL feeders.
> I wonder how different the FV are.
> On Aliexpress the FV feeders are less expensive.
> Very obvious they don't come with the handle to carry and lock them in
> place.
> But do they use the same mounting plate and pick location, esp. height?
>
> The SS feeder clearly use a different mounting system.
>

What i know:
This feeders types are compatible on Yamaha/Assembleon(Philips) machines:
FV-CL-CL FS

SS (Yamaha) or FS (Assembleon) are electrical feeders with different mounting..
CL i type (intelligent CL) are not compatible with CL mount.

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:18:44 PM UTC+2, Cri S wrote:

>Cri I'm little confused with your information. So the plate for original feeders must have >thickness 16mm at the edge closer to parts picking?
Yes 16.0 mm, and this for 15mm depht.

You are right.
I've measured 16.06mm height with cheap digital calipers.
Overall length is ca 567.5mm, measured with class II ruler.

[Marek T.]

Great Bernd, thanks!
(class II accuracy good enough for my purpose ;) )

[Bernd Walter]

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 5:20:07 PM UTC+2, Marek T. wrote:

Great Bernd, thanks!
(class II accuracy good enough for my purpose ;) )

I trust that ruler more, than my ability to read it properly ;-)

[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 8, 2017, at 5:40 AM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
>
> Hope to get some matching O-rings next week, while waiting for delivery of the Y-rings.
> Couldn't source the proper Y-rings locally.

Does anybody know where I can find some diagrams showing how to install the seals?

I ordered one of the Robotdigg Yamaha-pneumatic-feeder mounting blocks, and everything fits together quite nicely, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to properly seal the joint between the feeder and the base.

If I understand correctly (I have a huge pile of these feeders but have never seen one in pneumatic operation) the rear mounting peg (i.e. the one farther from the pick and place head) has a tiny hole in it. Compressed air enters through that hole, flows through the machined aluminum block into the black tube, and from there to the pneumatic actuator.

Is the O-ring supposed to go underneath the smaller plate component of the base, or be wrapped around the peg, or in both positions? Tried a lot of things, still got leaks and no feeder actuation.

I was pretty skeptical about the whole pneumatic-actuation thing from the start, had planned on converting the feeders to use cheap motors instead, but figured I'd give the pneumatics one last chance.

Also there appear to be two screws on the machine aluminum block part of the feeder, do I need to set and/or tune those? Not sure what they do.

Thanks,

[Marek T.]

Hi Lamont,

I don't have this block but plan to build or buy some. Haven't decided yet if take robotdigg or some more closer to original (or used). But I've that feeder and played with him.

I imagine that the only sealing (x-ring) should be placed under this long slat.

If you take a look on the air pin of the feeder you'll find there one small hole at one side. When I've applied there an air from my compressor the tape was actuated as should do.

By the way, could you tell me if the hole for airpin and the hole where is mounted the air pipe connector are drilled axially? Appreciated if you could take some photo showing an inside of the air holes (when the covering bar is taken off).

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 11:07:25 AM UTC+1, Lamont Cranston wrote:

On Oct 8, 2017, at 5:40 AM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
>
> Hope to get some matching O-rings next week, while waiting for delivery of the Y-rings.
> Couldn't source the proper Y-rings locally.

Does anybody know where I can find some diagrams showing how to install the seals?

I ordered one of the Robotdigg Yamaha-pneumatic-feeder mounting blocks, and everything fits together quite nicely, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to properly seal the joint between the feeder and the base.

The best thing is to get the proper Y-ring sold by Robotdigg.
They work very well in the block.
The Y-Rings are standard, but I couldn't find any other source, so I had to wait for Robotdigg to deliver.
The Y side goes below to the pressure source.
But you can also just use something else - I'd cut some rubber sheet in the meantime.

If I understand correctly (I have a huge pile of these feeders but have never seen one in pneumatic operation) the rear mounting peg (i.e. the one farther from the pick and place head) has a tiny hole in it.  Compressed air enters through that hole, flows through the machined aluminum block into the black tube, and from there to the pneumatic actuator.

Also seal the pneumatic tube adapter on the bottom with some thread seal.
I tried a stack of 2 O-rings, but those went so high that they blocked the side hole of the feeder peg.
 

Is the O-ring supposed to go underneath the smaller plate component of the base, or be wrapped around the peg, or in both positions?  Tried a lot of things, still got leaks and no feeder actuation.

It goes below the smaller plate.
As said above, with the Y-side, the side with 2 lips, to the bottom and the single lip side to the top.

I was pretty skeptical about the whole pneumatic-actuation thing from the start, had planned on converting the feeders to use cheap motors instead, but figured I'd give the pneumatics one last chance.

You need a standard pressure of 6-8 bar.
Don't try with 3bar airbrush compressor - it is not enough.

Also there appear to be two screws on the machine aluminum block part of the feeder, do I need to set and/or tune those?  Not sure what they do.

Not sure which screws you mean.
The smaller plate should be screwed with all screws to the base plate.
In my case only one matching screw was supplied.

Thanks,

[Jason von Nieda]

FWIW I used 5x9 orings and they seem to work just fine too.

Jason

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[Marek T.]

Could anybody explain me how an air in the plate is supplied to feeder if the small hole for air is located at the side surface of the feeder pin not centrally at his bottom? Is there some side channel in the plate to deliver an air, or just the main hole for the pin has higher diameter than the pin 6mm and air is blowing from bottom not from some side channel?
That's why I've asked if air connector is mounted axially with the pin or not.

[Jason von Nieda]

The hole at the bottom of the plate is wider than at the top, so the hole in the pin has a gap around it. The air is supplied via a threaded fitting in the bottom of the plate, for each channel. I can take some pics on Monday.

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 1:30 PM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could anybody explain me how an air in the plate is supplied to feeder if the small hole for air is located at the side surface of the feeder pin not centrally at his bottom? Is there some side channel in the plate to deliver an air, or just the main hole for the pin has higher diameter than the pin 6mm and air is blowing from bottom not from some side channel?
That's why I've asked if air connector is mounted axially with the pin or not.

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[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 29, 2017, at 5:16 AM, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you take a look on the air pin of the feeder you'll find there one small hole at one side. When I've applied there an air from my compressor the tape was actuated as should do.

Yeah, I saw that, but I have no idea how to attach my air compressor to it (other than using the Robotdigg feeder mounting block).

I mean, I've only ever attached my feeder to things that have threaded connectors or those quick-release bearing connectors.

I tried just sticking the pin in the end of an air hose and, well, what happened was what you'd expect: the compressor blew the air tube off the pin. And then it flapped around the room making noise. And I felt dumb :)

I guess that's my main problem with pneumatic actuators, unlike electronics and (to a lesser extent) motors I often don't know of the right equipment needed to operate the individual elements of the system in isolation as a troubleshooting strategy.

> By the way, could you tell me if the hole for airpin and the hole where is mounted the air pipe connector are drilled axially?

No, laterally.

> Appreciated if you could take some photo showing an inside of the air holes (when the covering bar is taken off).

Coming right up...

[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 29, 2017, at 5:16 AM, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> By the way, could you tell me if the hole for airpin and the hole where is mounted the air pipe connector are drilled axially? Appreciated if you could take some photo showing an inside of the air holes (when the covering bar is taken off).

Okay hope these help and that google doesn't excommunicate me for the heinous sin of emailing images to a mailing list...

I circled the air entry hole because it didn't turn out as visible in the photo as I thought.

By the way my block was painted black which I didn't expect; I don't mind though. I think I was one of the first people to order one, they probably had trouble with the finish on the first run or something.

First photo shows where I put an o-ring on the feeder pin itself; last photo shows where I put one inside the block. I have also tried each o-ring by itself without the other one and no o-rings at all. All four configurations lead to lots of air escaping all over the place and no feeder actuation.

I have to say that I still really like the feeders. If I can't make this work they'll still make great motor-actuated feeders, assuming sufficient leverage. But I would kinda like to see them move the way they're meant to before I make another frankenplacerpart.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 29, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> The best thing is to get the proper Y-ring sold by Robotdigg.
> They work very well in the block.
> The Y-Rings are standard, but I couldn't find any other source, so I had to wait for Robotdigg to deliver.
> The Y side goes below to the pressure source.
> But you can also just use something else - I'd cut some rubber sheet in the meantime.

Any chance you could post a close-up photo of what the Y-ring looks like? Robotdigg's site only shows the X-ring, and frankly I can't see how it's any different from an O-ring.

Even better if you could post a closeup of it sitting in the feeder block. At least then I'd have an idea of what to aim for.

I do have a graphtec cutter and rubber sheets that fit through it, so in a pinch...

When I ordered the feeder block the order page didn't say anything about the rings. I see they've now included one line. Wish they'd post a photo showing what it looks like installed, which ought to convey which gap it helps seal.

> As said above, with the Y-side, the side with 2 lips, to the bottom and the single lip side to the top.

Gah, sorry, I cannot envision this. I guess I need to see what a Y-ring looks like to make sense of it.

> You need a standard pressure of 6-8 bar.
> Don't try with 3bar airbrush compressor - it is not enough.

Yeah I'm using a 25-gallon shop air compressor. Normally set to 120psi (=8.2bar) but never got it up that high with the feeder because the massive air leaks were obvious at even half that pressure.

> Also there appear to be two screws on the machine aluminum block part of the feeder, do I need to set and/or tune those? Not sure what they do.
>
> Not sure which screws you mean.
> The smaller plate should be screwed with all screws to the base plate.
> In my case only one matching screw was supplied.

No no, on the feeder, not the plate. Not visible in the photo below but the arrow points at it (can take another if you want). I think the other adjustment-looking screw is on the bottom side of the feeder as it lies in the photo.

(And yes I'm aware the actuator is disconnected in these photos -- after I couldn't get the feeder working I disconnected it to try to operate it directly off of the compressor, then realized I lacked the adapters to do that).

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 9:46:28 PM UTC+1, Lamont Cranston wrote:

On Oct 29, 2017, at 5:16 AM, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way, could you tell me if the hole for airpin and the hole where is mounted the air pipe connector are drilled axially? Appreciated if you could take some photo showing an inside of the air holes (when the covering bar is taken off).

Okay hope these help and that google doesn't excommunicate me for the heinous sin of emailing images to a mailing list...

I circled the air entry hole because it didn't turn out as visible in the photo as I thought.

By the way my block was painted black which I didn't expect; I don't mind though.  I think I was one of the first people to order one, they probably had trouble with the finish on the first run or something.

First photo shows where I put an o-ring on the feeder pin itself; last photo shows where I put one inside the block.  I have also tried each o-ring by itself without the other one and no o-rings at all.  All four configurations lead to lots of air escaping all over the place and no feeder actuation.

Don't put a seal on the feeder, they sit too high if you do this and the side hold is blocked.
The feeder pin goes through the seal inside the feeder block.
The pin side hole is pushed so far into the feeder block that it rests below the seal in the 1/8" thread area and can take air from below the seal.

The pneumatic adapters are ok, but you have to seal the thread.
Teflon tape or any other type of thread sealant should work.
I've used Loctide 55, because that's what I could get from a friend on a sunday.
Without that they leak air like hell.

I've put air into the adapter and hold my thumb on the top plate of the feederblock to check if the thread is air tight.
My first way was to trust the sealing applied by the pneumatic adapter vendor, but it didn't seal.
Someone told me that this is for conical threads only and the feeder plate has a strait thread.
My second way was putting 2 O-rings in the 1/8" thread before screwing the pneumatic adapter, but one of the seals blocked the side hole of the feeder.
The only way to handle this is by sealing the thread itself.

Mine is the 30 position one and came in plain silver.
You can see it with a working feeder here:

https://youtu.be/nBnfRhdnPks

I activate the feeder twice, because the parts have 8mm spacing with the feeder doing 4mm.

[Marek T.]

Great!
Don't have some editor here but:
- on picture 1410, the pin has diameter 6mm. Take pipe with inner 7-8mm and insert this pin inside just pushing the front of pipe firmly. It was ok at me to advance the tape when delivered some pressure.
- on picture 1414 it seems you have a ring with too large inner diameter. It should be less than 6mm, it means no more than pin diameter, in my opinion. Picture seems to show that inner size of your ring is wider than the hole, maybe it's only illusion. It's cause of the leakage.
- will need ask you for some sizes from last picture but will edit and send it later :-).

Jason thanks for pics offer but that from Lamont seems be enough. And just this wanted to know that hole dia is wider than pin. I'll make later some drawing to you could confirm me (or deny) that it's like I think. Thanks!

[Marek T.]

1416 shows too wide ring not 1414, sorry.

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 10:01:37 PM UTC+1, Lamont Cranston wrote:

On Oct 29, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> The best thing is to get the proper Y-ring sold by Robotdigg.
> They work very well in the block.
> The Y-Rings are standard, but I couldn't find any other source, so I had to wait for Robotdigg to deliver.
> The Y side goes below to the pressure source.
> But you can also just use something else - I'd cut some rubber sheet in the meantime.

Any chance you could post a close-up photo of what the Y-ring looks like?  Robotdigg's site only shows the X-ring, and frankly I can't see how it's any different from an O-ring.

I don't have them at home, but will be at the machine in a couple of hours.
It is the profile, which differs.
An O-ring has a round profile.
An Y-ring has a Y-shaped profile
An X-ring has an X-shaped profile.

4th picture is a Y-ring profile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring#/media/File:Orings_Xrings.svg


Just consider it as a square profile with a slit on on one side for the Y and on both sides for the X.
Y and X are used mostly for moved parts, like pneumatic cyclinders.
The two lips line up with the inner and outer side, with pressure they spread and are pushed harder against the sides.
With an O-ring the pressure can compress the seal and sneak to either side.
However - I don't think that having a Y seal is important and Jason used O-rings as well.
My O-ring set just hadn't the right size.

Even better if you could post a closeup of it sitting in the feeder block.  At least then I'd have an idea of what to aim for.

I do have a graphtec cutter and rubber sheets that fit through it, so in a pinch...

When I ordered the feeder block the order page didn't say anything about the rings.  I see they've now included one line.  Wish they'd post a photo showing what it looks like installed, which ought to convey which gap it helps seal.

Same for me - I've ordered them strait away when they came out with it.
But I've also ordered the seals when they came out, so fortunately, since the block was delayed
I've received the seals just a couple of days after I'd got my block.

> As said above, with the Y-side, the side with 2 lips, to the bottom and the single lip side to the top.

Gah, sorry, I cannot envision this.  I guess I need to see what a Y-ring looks like to make sense of it.

> You need a standard pressure of 6-8 bar.
> Don't try with 3bar airbrush compressor - it is not enough.

Yeah I'm using a 25-gallon shop air compressor.  Normally set to 120psi (=8.2bar) but never got it up that high with the feeder because the massive air leaks were obvious at even half that pressure.

> Also there appear to be two screws on the machine aluminum block part of the feeder, do I need to set and/or tune those?  Not sure what they do.
>
> Not sure which screws you mean.
> The smaller plate should be screwed with all screws to the base plate.
> In my case only one matching screw was supplied.

No no, on the feeder, not the plate.  Not visible in the photo below but the arrow points at it (can take another if you want).  I think the other adjustment-looking screw is on the bottom side of the feeder as it lies in the photo.

Ah - got it.
No - under normal conditions you don't have to change anything on the feeder.
There are a few screw to adjust spring tensions and actuator movement to tune the feed location, but that's just to make them interchangeable or for special tapes.
 

(And yes I'm aware the actuator is disconnected in these photos -- after I couldn't get the feeder working I disconnected it to try to operate it directly off of the compressor, then realized I lacked the adapters to do that).

That's good - leave it disconnected for now.
I did the same.
That way you can test if the air goes through.
As said in another mail, I've manged to block the side hole.

[Paul Kelly]

That o-ring looks to be too small a section. It needs to be slightly squashed by the cover plate.
PK

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[Marek T.]

Enlarge oring.pic and see what I meant about oring diameter.
Try use as Jason advised some 5x9. Actualy it should be rather named 5x2 (5 is dia, 2 is wall thickness), in Europe at least.

[Lamont Cranston]

Ah, never mind, needed sealing tape on the air inlet screw threads on the bottom of the plate. The feeders are now dumping parts all over the floor at an impressive rate while making a pleasant ca-CHUNK-ca-CHUNK-ca-CHUNK sound.

If anybody needs a device to barf components all over their floor at ultra-high speed, I definitely recommend these feeders for that :)

They might also be useful for other tasks, like assembling PCBs. I have not yet evaluated them in that context yet.

[Marek T.]

Great to hear that it finally worked for you :-)

I would be grateful if you may take and write me the pointed sizes A, B, C.
Pls see them on your modified picture,
I expect that A=6mm (to fit and position the feeder pin) and B=11mm (to fit to Robotdidd 10.62mm x-ring).
Specially interresting for me is C. Is it already here wider than A and how much.

[Lamont Cranston]

Hey thanks again for your advice on the feeder plate!

On Oct 29, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> https://youtu.be/nBnfRhdnPks

That's a very nice tooling plate you've got there, the (steel?) plate with regularly spaced holes in it. Did you have it custom CNC'd or is there a source for those?

I had a similar plate made as a stencil tooling block, but the job cost enough that I'm trying not to go that route again unless necessary.

Also what is the name (in general, generically) for that device made of white 3D-printed plastic in your videos? I know the commercial pick-and-places (and stencil printers too) have metal widgets that look like that but I don't even know the name for that thing so it's hard to even start looking for them.

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 11:31:27 PM UTC+1, Lamont Cranston wrote:

Hey thanks again for your advice on the feeder plate!

On Oct 29, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> https://youtu.be/nBnfRhdnPks

That's a very nice tooling plate you've got there, the (steel?) plate with regularly spaced holes in it.  Did you have it custom CNC'd or is there a source for those?

I have a CNC mil.
It is 3mm alu 300x500mm sized, slightly cut to a smaller size IIRC 297x497mm on the mil.
The machine has 2 of those for a total of ~600x500mm
The holes are 2mm and 3mm with 15mm spacing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfuW34gyHfU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG_3_PwAzdc

I had a similar plate made as a stencil tooling block, but the job cost enough that I'm trying not to go that route again unless necessary.

Understandable, it took several hours to produce them each.

Also what is the name (in general, generically) for that device made of white 3D-printed plastic in your videos?  I know the commercial pick-and-places (and stencil printers too) have metal widgets that look like that but I don't even know the name for that thing so it's hard to even start looking for them.

Don't know what the name is, but it is just a moveable bracket in the right height with a slit for an M3 screw.
On the bottom I use thumb-nuts.
They take a lot of space on the table though.
I'll keep them for now, since they are flexible and they do work fine, but there are probably better options.
I've attached the OpenSCAD file.
Not a flexible and easy readable source, sorry, just did them in a quick and dirty style for myself.
They match up in height with the stripfeeders by dzach:
https://github.com/dzach/Pick-and-place-accessories
 

[Lamont Cranston]

measurements taken with generic digital calipers, so don't expect more than 50-100um accuracy..

A = 6.4mm
B = 8.8mm
C = 5.86mm (note this is my own O-ring, did not come with the feeder)

I have a box of assorted O-rings but I think they are all imperial-sized. The one shown in the picture is the largest O.D. that would
fit inside the groove, unfortunately the height of the ring is less than the depth of the groove in which it sits so it does not seal
terribly well although it works. All of the thicker rings are either too large or much too small. But I can make do for now while I wait for the proper Y-rings to arrive.

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> <sizes.jpeg>

[Marek T.]

Many thx!
But as C dimension I need metal hole diameter... Is it the same like A or wider?
It must be probably wider to create a gap mentioned by Jason. Gap between pin and plate body to allow air flow to the feeder.

[Lamont Cranston]

Oh sorry. The all-the-way-through hold is 6.4mm I.D.

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[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 29, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> Just consider it as a square profile with a slit on on one side for the Y and on both sides for the X.
> Y and X are used mostly for moved parts, like pneumatic cyclinders.
> The two lips line up with the inner and outer side, with pressure they spread and are pushed harder against the sides.
> With an O-ring the pressure can compress the seal and sneak to either side.

Ah, finally it all makes sense. Thank you for this explanation.

> However - I don't think that having a Y seal is important and Jason used O-rings as well.

Yeah I got it working with O-rings although it does appear to require a lot more air pressure than I would expect -- 100psi just to make it move slowly and 125psi to get even halfway reasonable actuation times. That's a fairly large amount of pressure. I knew these things required a good bit of force but didn't think it was *that* much.

FWIW with the O-ring I noticed a strange phenomenon where below 50psi there is a ton of air leakage, and when the pressure rises above 75psi or so it stops leaking. As if it requires a certain amount of air pressure in order to establish a seal somewhere in there. I imagine this has something to do with using the wrong kind of ring.

(Apologies for my use of archaic american measurement units...)

[Jason von Nieda]

Only takes 90 psi for me and that is a quick, strong actuation. Perhaps yours need lubrication or something?

Jason

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[Lamont Cranston]

Very likely the case.

I don't suppose there is a service manual for these feeders floating around anywhere by any chance?...

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[Bernd Walter]

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 10:14:59 AM UTC+1, Jason von Nieda wrote:

Only takes 90 psi for me and that is a quick, strong actuation. Perhaps yours need lubrication or something?

I'm running without pressure regulator 6-8bar.
So 90psi (6.2bar) is ok for me as well.
It is strong, not slow, but also not as fast as I've seen in videos, which I assume is because I completely use 4mm outer diameter tubes.
I think Robotdigg suggests pneumatic adapters for 6mm outer diameter tubes.
So far I'm still happy with the result.

Lamont, since you have multiple feeders.
Do they feel the same when actuated by hand?

[Bernd Walter]

I won't dissable my feeder block again, so can't give you exact values.
But the magic is the depth.
IIRC the top plate hole is bigger than the feeder pin.
It is just there to hold the seals in place.
The seal rests on a hole matched with the feeder pin size, since that's where the pin is centered at.
From the bottom you have the 1/8" thread for the pneumatic connection.
The thread goes a fair bit deeper than you need for an pneumatic adapter and in that area it is where the feeder pin ends, including it's side hole.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:08 AM, Bernd Walter <be...@bwct.de> wrote:
> Lamont, since you have multiple feeders.
> Do they feel the same when actuated by hand?

More or less.

They're much older models (Philips FV84), or at least seem to be after looking at your videos. The pneumatic actuator is also much smaller which probably means it is weaker.

I got a truckload of them for an incredibly cheap price so I am not complaining.

[Marek T.]

Ok Friends, thanks for dimensions and information. Bernd, clear for me, If I'd mount all that 30 screws also not happy to disassemble it for you ;-).
So I've drawn a piece of plate to get final info how it is done. Indulgence please, it's not some professional technical drawing but done in real scale.
Pls see attached picture, left or right version? And should I understand that the pin is kept in center only through the gum, correct?

[Bernd Walter]

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 4:59:12 PM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

Ok Friends, thanks for dimensions and information. Bernd, clear for me, If I'd mount all that 30 screws also not happy to disassemble it for you ;-).
So I've drawn a piece of plate to get final info how it is done. Indulgence please, it's not some professional technical drawing but done in real scale.

I think there is a confusion about the size of the 1/8" thread and this is my fault.
The thread is not 1/8", the thread is for a 1/8" british standard pipe, which means a tap drill size of 8.7mm, because the 1/8" in the standard is the tube inside diameter, so you add the wall thickness.
See first entry in this table:
http://www.ring-plug-thread-gages.com/PDChart/G-series-Fine-thread-data.html
The thread is bigger than the pin.
So start with  the left drawing, make the thread bigger than the pin and raise it to the side hole.
 

Pls see attached picture, left or right version? And should I understand that the pin is kept in center only through the gum, correct?

No - the metal below the seal has matching diameter and locates the pin.
But it is only a small part, until the hole gets wider by the hole from the bottom.

[Marek T.]

Ech, I've made a stupid mistake cause of some auto-suggestion and used 4mm thread the same like pipe, no comment...
Now shoud be ok I hope. Now it makes sense about working and about to produce it.
Dia in metal keeping the pin is 6.1mm now, so there is arround gap 0.05mm. It's like in my plate for older feeders with the same 6mm pins.
Stayed with 6.4mm in the covering plate suggested by Lamont and his generic tool measuring :-).
You could tell me yet what is the height of the x-rings. Their size is 10.78x2.62 but it's diameter. The height is also ~2.62?
See new pic attached below.

[Marek T.]

Now have found that Robotdigg says on their site with the board about "Y-ring 6*9*2.1" and gives a link to X-ring 10.78x2.62...
Understand that socket like 9x2 will be ideal.

[Bernd Walter]

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 9:08:07 PM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

Now have found that Robotdigg says on their site with the board about "Y-ring 6*9*2.1" and gives a link to X-ring 10.78x2.62...

Lol - yes, it is confusing.
No idea what the X-ring is for, but you can select the Y-ring in the article options.
 

[Marek T.]

I have here good supplier with different sealings (manufacturer), no problem with this they find me good profile and size.
The drawing is ok now?

[Bernd Walter]

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 10:09:46 PM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

I have here good supplier with different sealings (manufacturer), no problem with this they find me good profile and size.
The drawing is ok now?

Yes, your last drawing shows exactly how those blocks work.

[Marek T.]

Great, thank's for help!

[Marek T.]

Hi Bernd

Have two more questions. Not troubling I hope :-)

1. an air sealing, this o-ring or y-ring. Is it squeezed by the top covering plate to the main board, or there is some gap between oring and plates? Don't need to you measure it. I'm making a draw for some CNC and need to know how to design it.
2. valves. I have searched over few catalogues of valve manufaturers but can't find how they are connected to the delivered air (to compressor). As I thing an air from compressor is connected to the one, first, valve only and passes through him to the next valve and so on. And searching to know how the valves are connected and sealed each other. I don't believe that an air from compressor is divided into 20, 30 or more ways and connected separately to each valve. How it is?

[Bernd Walter]

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 6:19:06 PM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

Hi Bernd

Have two more questions. Not troubling I hope :-)

1. an air sealing, this o-ring or y-ring. Is it squeezed by the top covering plate to the main board, or there is some gap between oring and plates? Don't need to you measure it. I'm making a draw for some CNC and need to know how to design it.

I will check if they are loose fit next time.
I don't think they are squeezed, but now sure.
 

2. valves. I have searched over few catalogues of valve manufaturers but can't find how they are connected to the delivered air (to compressor). As I thing an air from compressor is connected to the one, first, valve only and passes through him to the next valve and so on. And searching to know how the valves are connected and sealed each other. I don't believe that an air from compressor is divided into 20, 30 or more ways and connected separately to each valve. How it is?

There are 2 styles I know.

The one I use are the simpler ones.
They have 2 positions to connect the pressure air, one on each side, so you can run them in series.
I havn't connected them together, but it should work with some O-rings.
The evacuation had no connector - just a filter with a muffler.

The other type has both (pressure and evacuation) connectors on the bottom.
The outlet to the device is somewhere on top.
There are frames to mount them on, which have 2 connectors on each side, so you can
run them in series too.
The also have holes on the top for the valves.
You have to seat all positions with valves to fill the holes.
The normally closed inlet gets the pressured air and the normally open one gets a
muffler (to silence the air flow).
You also need some plugs for the unused pass-through holes of course.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Port-2Position-1-8-BSP-Airtac-Solenoid-Valve-3V-Series-Pneumatic-Air-Solenoid-Control-Valve-Alumium/1383334243.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-4-Airtac-Pneumatic-Solenoid-Valve-Manifold-Base-Board-With-Screws-Rubber-3V210-200M-10F-10/32727512990.html
I havn't bought them, so can't guaranty that they will match.

[Marek T.]

Thanks, let me know when you have time to check it, thanks.

I know V210 series and manifolds for them. Just couldn't find how to connect your V1 valves in serie - using just some orings or there is some dedicated flat sealing for them.

[Bernd Walter]

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 8:00:50 PM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

Thanks, let me know when you have time to check it, thanks.

It is a tight fit, but you can move it a little up and down.
You can't rotate it, which makes sense, since it should seal on the outer side.

I know V210 series and manifolds for them. Just couldn't find how to connect your V1 valves in serie - using just some orings or there is some dedicated flat sealing for them.

I'm not aware of dedicated sealings, but a thick O-ring or a cut rubber sheet should do.
The valves, at least from this supplier, have a round resessment, so you need a big rim size.
Although the valve mounting are not screwed on straight, so you can't screw them so tight together that the alu body touch without reseating the valve mounting.
I'm happy with the valve, but in the meantime, of the 10 I had ordered, I had problems with 2 of them because some scrap metal blocked the valve.
It was easy to fix, but 2 of 10 is a bit sad.
So far I'm using 4 for vacuum, 4 for pneumatic feeders and plan to use the remaining 2 for pneumatic feeders as well.
All of them are mounted separately.
Not sure if I will stay with them for the remaining feeder slots, but since it is more likely that I will use the pneumatic feeders mostly for 12 and 16mm, I might
not connect every slot at all.
If I stay with the valves I will hook the rest up in a single block.
That said: This is my first time with pneumatic at all.

[Marek T.]

It makes sense what you say about the oring gap. My oring provider told me to make the socket diameter wider and higher 0.2mm. It's ok about higher but probably not acceptable about the wider diameter as will just not seal at outer surface then. One of the sizes must be tight. That's why asked you for this info.

I need many 8mm feeders. So need many valves. My board will be for 40 slots or 35 slots. Each slot more important for me. Asked Robotdigg too make me that board but customized production costs them a lot and got price for that like $300. So I'll do it here much cheaper.
Valves V1 like you have are 23mm width but may be easy connected by touching their sides and orings between them. V200 valves are 17mm so better for me about place but require special manifold. Manifolds for them are for max 10 valves. So also must make some long manifold for them because don't want to connect 3-4 manifolds. Some problem wherever I touch :-).

[Bernd Walter]

On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 10:55:00 AM UTC+1, Marek T. wrote:

It makes sense what you say about the oring gap. My oring provider told me to make the socket diameter wider and higher 0.2mm. It's ok about higher but probably not acceptable about the wider diameter as will just not seal at outer surface then. One of the sizes must be tight. That's why asked you for this info.

I need many 8mm feeders. So need many valves. My board will be for 40 slots or 35 slots. Each slot more important for me. Asked Robotdigg  too make me that board but customized production costs them a lot and got price for that like $300. So I'll do it here much cheaper.

Same for me, and I assume anyone else - 8mm are highest priority.
But now I have siplace feeders for 16 tapes capable for 2 and 4mm and expect to get some older ones for additional 16 tapes with 4mm only.
Plus my Dragfeeder Block can do 22 8mm tapes.
And I already own 3 4mm and 1 2mm 8mm Yamaha feeders.
I can mount even more siplace feeders and buying used 8mm siplace can be cheaper than Yamaha.
The only downside is that they don't come with a reel holder.
With 12/16mm the situation is very different, the used prices for siplace single are 2.5 times higher than for Yamaha.
The thing is that I also need a couple 12mm, so far I have one Yamaha and 4 on the drag feeder, which isn't much.
The only good thing is that the siplace can be used for 12 or 16, but at this price I can buy a Yamaha 12 and a 16mm, so have both at the same time.
Very likely I will buy a few more 12mm Yamaha and do the rest as strips.
Strip feeders work very well, it is just that they take so much space on the machine for just a few parts.

I understand what you mean about the width.
I could also do 40 or more on my machine.
Maybe I fill that gap with tube feeders one day.

[Marek T.]

I rather prefer to have all the feeders one type, it means from one supplier. Now have many old type mechanical philips feeders. Have converted some 20pcs of 8*4mm into 8*2mm exchanging the teeth wheel. But due to their construction their precission is generaly not very high for small components like 0402 (which are still more popularly used by clients). These Chinese Yamahas are really much improved so I plan buy some 30 pcs of 8*2mm.

Btw: Have you noticed that on the side plate of these Yamaha there is a screw ~3mm in hole ~3.5mm, it's keeping some actuator. If you move it delicately using only this 0.5mm gap then 2mm feeder advances the tape for 4mm :-). I haven't tested it with an air actuating but when used with manual advancement with this mechanical switch it works very good.

[Mark Blair]

Hi, everybody. Is there either a dimensioned drawing or a reasonably accurate 3D CAD model of the 30 slot block available anywhere? And how about documentation or CAD model of a token CL feeder, particularly showing the pick location vs. the mounting plane and alignment pins? I'd like to noodle around in CAD with some machine ideas over the holidays if I can learn some of these details.

[Trampas Stern]

I do not have CAD models but the pick point on the CL feeders is just in front of the first alignment pin, hence I would design your nozzles and camera to extend to just beyond the first alignment pin. 

The pick height is ~65mm above the top of the plate. 

Trampas

[Mark Blair]

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 11:49:00 AM UTC-8, Trampas Stern wrote:

I do not have CAD models but the pick point on the CL feeders is just in front of the first alignment pin, hence I would design your nozzles and camera to extend to just beyond the first alignment pin. 

The pick height is ~65mm above the top of the plate.

Thank you! I'm also curious about the overall width and length and the spacing of the mounting holes. I'd like to play around with subframe design ideas.

But now that I see the thick base plate on some of the import machines that use CL feeders, I'm starting to wonder if I might be better off with one of those as a foundation in the long run. I have a Bridgeport CNC milling machine (currently in pieces from my last move), but its Y travel is only 12", so I'd still want to farm out machine work on a similar base plate if I build my own machine. So now I'm starting to contemplate getting one of the low-end machines like a CHMT36VB as a cheap starter, converting it over to OpenPnP to add vision, and then using that to Build Things that I can sell to save up for one of the fancier imported machines with multiple nozzles and many CL feeder slots. And then maybe convert that machine to OpenPnP, also, if I don't like its software. And then add a nozzle changer to it.

[Trampas Stern]

You will want to do something like BendRocks suggested and use ATP5 plate and then mount Robodigg plates for the CL feeders underneath. 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/openpnp/ATP5%7Csort:date/openpnp/UA8h0TvXpKg/ObJuMNVeCwAJ