Nozzle changer

[geo0rpo]

Hello friends.

I am afraid that I know the answer but hope never dies.

Is there a change for auto nozzle change with the "chinese" dual head with springs?

[Saito Ryosuke]

Hello geo0rpo
I got the head unit you showed and have attempted to use it.
As a result, I designed another head that appropriated that part and I am using the new head.

That Chinese head requires a very strong force for the fixing mechanism of the juki nozzle.
It was not possible to attach the nozzle automatically.
(I have a few ideas on how to remove it. Use a slope.

I think you can replace the nozzle chuck mechanism at the tip with another great one to make it usable :-)

thank you!

Ryosuke

2021年2月8日(月) 5:32 geo0rpo <geo...@gmail.com>:

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[Sandra Carroll]

The Nozzle holders included with this head is not designed to be a tool changer type.

You can easily replace them with these

https://www.betztechnik.ca/store/p32/Quick_change_Juki_nozzle_holders-_NEMA8%2F_11_hollow_shaft.html

 

 

If you desire to have a tool changer

 

Sandra

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Saito Ryosuke
Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2021 8:33 PM
To: ope...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Nozzle changer

 

Hello geo0rpo
I got the head unit you showed and have attempted to use it.
As a result, I designed another head that appropriated that part and I am using the new head.

That Chinese head requires a very strong force for the fixing mechanism of the juki nozzle.
It was not possible to attach the nozzle automatically.
(I have a few ideas on how to remove it. Use a slope.

I think you can replace the nozzle chuck mechanism at the tip with another great one to make it usable :-)

thank you!

Ryosuke

 

2021年2月8日(月) 5:32 geo0rpo <geo...@gmail.com>:

Hello friends.

I am afraid that I know the answer but hope never dies.

Is there a change for auto nozzle change with the "chinese" dual head with springs?

 

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[geo0rpo]

Is there any video showing the nozzles changing with the spring dual head?

I am sure that the springs used the return the nema8 motors to the top, are not strong enough to pull the tip.

[Duncan Ellison]

Hey George,

On my machines, I changed the nozzle holders for ones from Peter Betz, which are a big improvement on the ones from China which just use ball bearings and an offcut of silicone tubing :-(

You are right that the Z stepper on these will probably lose steps before you manage to detach the nozzle, that's why some people here have designed the 'ramp' nozzle changer which seems to work well.  Here's a video from another current thread in case you haven't seen it  https://youtu.be/EinBcFP6Ncw  I've 3D printed some of these and they turn out well.

However.... the problem you and I have is that due to the design of the head, the second nozzle doesn't retract out of the way, so fouls the changer block.  I haven't come up with a solution to this except to run only one nozzle and accept that by changing it you can complete a job.   

FWIW, I'm taking a another look at the Peter Betz head for one of my machines, however, it is going to be a big task to adapt this for my particular X Axis carriage slide.

Duncan

[geo0rpo]

Thanks for the info.

The nozzle holders for ones from Peter Betz are these?

https://www.betztechnik.ca/store/p32/Quick_change_Juki_nozzle_holders-_NEMA8%2F_11_hollow_shaft.html

Also the total height for the holder is the same?

And yes Duncan I understand that only one nozzle can work this way. Maybe we need a complicated way of lowering the nozzle holder down below the table of the machine.

Let me think... :)

[Thorsten Wilmer]

Hi

Let me know if my assumption is correct...

I plan to have the camera in the middle and the heads left and right. And I assume that I can have one changer on the left of the table and the other one at the right of the table.

I plan to configure the 0,0 point/soft end stops in such a way that the changer position can't be reached. Then send a command to change the sw endstop when I want to be able to perform the change to avoid crashing into them during normal operation.

Another alternative to add a feature of keepout Region, where the firmware would reject to travel to any position defined as keepout Region - this would be an additional feature, if I deem too much space is wasted. But as the changer area can each be reached anyway only by one head it may be not a big loss.

Kind Regards

 Thorsten

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/961ae60b-2c50-4997-9341-32b96808e4c1n%40googlegroups.com.

[ma...@makr.zone]

If you are still in the process of planning, consider sinking the nozzle tip changer under the table surface. No collisions possible, and maybe also solves duncans problem, because the other is lifted higher (?)

In the video there are different tips CP40, but the principle should remain the same:

https://youtu.be/poLwQDpfeJ8

_Mark

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CAKMJ56yZiZWm0vUtvsvZ_sZqYbJauBnriu7U1DTA5Vyo%2Bgq0TA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Duncan Ellison]

_Mark,

I did consider sinking the changer lower, but unfortunately, that doesn't solve the problem.

The issue is that the second nozzle tip is too low and will crash into the top of the nozzles in the rack during the change motion.  With the Betz head this isn't an issue as the second nozzle is automatically raised up out of the way.

Duncan

[ma...@makr.zone]

Just out of curiosity: if the changer is sunken into the table surface, how can this happen? Isn't this then the same headroom as in a pick or place?

_Mark

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/670bbb1d-98ec-408e-b8f1-52ffabf312bcn%40googlegroups.com.

[Bernd Walter]

On Mon, Feb 08, 2021 at 09:17:25AM -0800, Duncan Ellison wrote:
> _Mark,
>
> I did consider sinking the changer lower, but unfortunately, that doesn't
> solve the problem.

I have the exact same problem, but with 4 nozzles.

> The issue is that the second nozzle tip is too low and will crash into the
> top of the nozzles in the rack during the change motion. With the Betz
> head this isn't an issue as the second nozzle is automatically raised up
> out of the way.

My plan ist to lower the changer, but have them aligned in Y direction,
not side by side as most people do.
In X direction will be the next changer, which is raised/lowered independendly.
Lowering is only required to have multiple changers side by side.

It is a low priority project however, because with 4 nozzles I have less
pressure for changing tips.

If you have 2 nozzles, then you could have a bank left and a bank right side
without lowering.
That means keep the slots side by side, but rotate the whole bank ±90°.
I will likely do that on my machine as an intermediate solution for the
outer two nozzles.
With a 4 nozzle head this won't work for the inner 2 nozzles.
Unlesss you do specific taskss with e.g. whole boards having 5050 LEDs,
you don't really need a changer for all nozzles.
Run the permanent nozzles with Juki 503 and the other ones with changer.

> >> The *nozzle holders* for ones from Peter Betz are these?

> >>
> >> https://www.betztechnik.ca/store/p32/Quick_change_Juki_nozzle_holders-_NEMA8%2F_11_hollow_shaft.html
> >>
> >> Also the total height for the holder is the same?
> >>
> >> And yes Duncan I understand that only one nozzle can work this way. Maybe
> >> we need a complicated way of lowering the nozzle holder down below the
> >> table of the machine.
> >> Let me think... :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 10:49:43 AM UTC+2
> >> duncan_...@colnewater.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey George,
> >>>

> >>> On my machines, I changed the *nozzle holders* for ones from Peter

> >>>>> If you desire to have a tool changer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sandra
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>

> >>>>> *From:* ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf
> >>>>> Of *Saito Ryosuke
> >>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 7, 2021 8:33 PM
> >>>>> *To:* ope...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OpenPnP] Nozzle changer

> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello geo0rpo
> >>>>> I got the head unit you showed and have attempted to use it.
> >>>>> As a result, I designed another head that appropriated that part and I
> >>>>> am using the new head.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That Chinese head requires a very strong force for the fixing
> >>>>> mechanism of the juki nozzle.
> >>>>> It was not possible to attach the nozzle automatically.
> >>>>> (I have a few ideas on how to remove it. Use a slope.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think you can replace the nozzle chuck mechanism at the tip with
> >>>>> another great one to make it usable :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> thank you!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ryosuke
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2021年2月8日(月) 5:32 geo0rpo <geo...@gmail.com>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello friends.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am afraid that I know the answer but hope never dies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is there a change for auto nozzle change with the "chinese" dual head
> >>>>> with springs?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>

> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "OpenPnP" group.
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> >>>>> an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/0bf75d33-1694-4c77-b5ce-db181aa79199n%40googlegroups.com

> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/0bf75d33-1694-4c77-b5ce-db181aa79199n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>> .

> >>>>>
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> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CAH6K8ZW30JPeZg30sxFLB_%3DCEN38N%3DYB9xWX-TWb1%2BAHNzrJGA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>> .

> >>>>>
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--
B.Walter <be...@bwct.de> http://www.bwct.de
Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm.

[chende...@gmail.com]

I have the same problem, using 2 x dual heads like the one above in a 2x2 matrix, and as someone stated above, with full z actuation for the nozzle require changing, the other nozzle tips will crash into the stored nozzles from the changing mechanism. More z travel is required and that's not possible with this type of head. Of course, my heads are retrofitted with Peter's nozzles.

I started to think to redesign changing mechanism but now I am in a busy period and I was just able to cook some ideas, but nothing practically.

What I am thinking now is a changing mechanism which does not require x-y travel when z<>0:

-move nozzle to a changing location

-actuate Z directly into a support which is able to push the retaining mechanism ring and to free the nozzle

-start blowing with actuator, that will spit the nozzle tip into its holder

-retract Z with empty tip, move above tip required to be loaded

-push down Z, again, a support is required to push the retaining mechanism, allowing new nozzle to slide into position

-start sucking with vacuum actuator, that should suck nozzle into position

-retract Z with vacuum still on, until retaining mechanism locks back in place, stop vacuum

I made tests with blowing and sucking and there is enough force to move the nozzle against gravity. 

These are just some thoughts, perhaps some refinement is required. But I know so far openpnp cannot do this because it does not allow to actuate different actuators as a function of which direction of change is performed (loading or unloading).

[Bernd Walter]

On Mon, Feb 08, 2021 at 11:03:07AM -0800, chende...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have the same problem, using 2 x dual heads like the one above in a 2x2
> matrix, and as someone stated above, with full z actuation for the nozzle
> require changing, the other nozzle tips will crash into the stored nozzles
> from the changing mechanism. More z travel is required and that's not
> possible with this type of head. Of course, my heads are retrofitted with
> Peter's nozzles.

My head is dual cam in a single X direction row.
Also fitted with the holders from Betz.
With a square setup could do the left/right changer setup I decribed with
additional distance.
Say you want to change the tip in the front left holder.
Move to the left side and silde in with a left move.
The right nozzles won't collide yet if the movement is small enough.
The backside left won't hit a changer slot because you setup a gap in
the changer setup.
Depending on the distance between the front and back side, you setup
a few changers, then leave a gap and do more changers.

I'm more worried if the Z axis has enough power to push the spring.
With the changer Z axis I could raise them even more and keep the nozzles
at max, which means the force goes against the top restriction instead of
the cam.

> I started to think to redesign changing mechanism but now I am in a busy
> period and I was just able to cook some ideas, but nothing practically.
> What I am thinking now is a changing mechanism which does not require x-y
> travel when z<>0:
> -move nozzle to a changing location
> -actuate Z directly into a support which is able to push the retaining
> mechanism ring and to free the nozzle
> -start blowing with actuator, that will spit the nozzle tip into its holder
> -retract Z with empty tip, move above tip required to be loaded
> -push down Z, again, a support is required to push the retaining mechanism,
> allowing new nozzle to slide into position
> -start sucking with vacuum actuator, that should suck nozzle into position
> -retract Z with vacuum still on, until retaining mechanism locks back in
> place, stop vacuum
> I made tests with blowing and sucking and there is enough force to move the
> nozzle against gravity.
> These are just some thoughts, perhaps some refinement is required. But I
> know so far openpnp cannot do this because it does not allow to actuate
> different actuators as a function of which direction of change is performed
> (loading or unloading).

Interesting solution.
Needs less space than a sliding mechanism.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/a39b8ca2-153c-44d1-bd31-018c126c3c14n%40googlegroups.com.

[chende...@gmail.com]

Yes, it does require less space. In my case is important because in the holder will be at least 40 nozzles (each juki type x 4).

I did not tested yet if the z actuator is stronger than the spring from the holder. Will do that asap, is a quick test.

[Stephen Huber]

Duncan,  What if you ran two rows of duplicate nozzles in the Y orientation instead of X like you have it in the video.  They could be spaced to be at either extreme of the X to not take up too much space in your work area.  The left nozzle would change from the left side and the right from the right? 

Can you share a STEP file for that nozzle holder? 

Thanks,

[Mike Menci]

I am testing a dig. servo nozzle charging -discharging...

https://youtu.be/MTrgDyyMdRA

Mike

[Duncan Ellison]

Mike,

That's exactly where I was headed, but to resolve the issue with the Z headroom on the cam based heads, I was planning to have each nozzle rise up individually, just haven't got round to working that out yet.

Incidentally, this is exactly how the nozzle change works on the Zeva PM460 I'm modifying, but I threw away the nozzle changer thinking I would never need it - Doh!

Duncan

[Mike Menci]

Upper bracket is there for holding "Z" in its position.....  it will be at "Z" abt -5 to -10mm (not to loose stepping on Z belt driven axis) when nozzle is changed on my Quadro head. But I will be able to use only 2 nozzles out of 4.

My prototpe is not working well for now - I need to add 1 more servo to get changer work parallel on all 6 nozzle change locations.... 

Mike