Using Multiple fast industrial Cameras in OpenPnP

[Developer Algo]

Quick question:

1.  I have 3 x MindVision fast Industrial cameras  MV-SUA133GC ( 1 x Top Camera  , 2 x Bottom Cameras )  that i would like to use with OpenPnP for my Fly-By Vision setup . Is there a way to enable multiple cameras with OpenPnPCaptureCamera Driver .  I know that OpenCVCamera only allows for 2 Cameras so this will not work 

2. Support for both Raw and compressed image format  like Bayer, RGB, YUV  etc. Improved technology allows for extremely high bandwidth , Large Memory & High performance CPU artchitectures and therefore  this are not limitations in image processing at faster speeds.

3. In the meantime, if someone has figured out how to 3 or more cameras with OpenPnP please let me know. i would be glad to work with you to finish my DIY build.   

[Developer Algo]

Main Road blocks to OpenPnP being hugely adopted by large community of users :

1. Very Slow placement speeds compared to Peer DIY or Commercial PnP Softwares or "Crappy" Chinese PnP softwares

2. Lack of ability to use 3 or More Multiple fast industrial cameras with generic OpenPnPCaptureCamera Driver support
   for major RAW & Compressed image formats  Bayer, RGB , YUV , MPEG ,etc . The assumption that Bandwidth is the issue
   when processing images is completely non-factor with current affordable technology such as
   USB3.1, USB3.2, NetworkCards 2.5Gb/s, 5Gb/s,10Gb/s, 20Gb/s, 40Gb/s, Performance CPUs & GPUs
   
3. Parallelism and Motion Path Planning feature

These are critical features needed in OpenPnP. IMHO, OpenPnP is better than majority of PnP Software out there
but it seems to lack the essential pieces to make it fast and precise Open Source PnP.

if users can continue to financially contribute to the devs so that they can add this essential features
that would go a long way to make it better for OpenPnP community 

[mark maker]

Hi Algo,

A few things I'd like to say:

1. The main audience of OpenPnP is not in super-fast industrial mass production, but in DIY,  prototyping, small-runs. 
2. Because runs are small, and/or projects change quickly, we want it to be practical in setting up a new ad hoc jobs, so it is more about reducing human work time, rather than machine time. 
3. So we have auto-focus part height detection, contact probing nozzle, OCR/QR code feeder auto-detection, feeder vision, and more stuff like that, making the job setup easier. But no super-duper-fast-fly-by alignment.
   
4. Our focus is on flexibility in supporting a myriad of very different, even exotic ideas of machines, from "cheapo-DIY-3D-print-extrusion&belt" to "old-tons-of-metal-retrofit". This makes it impossible to match the tuning of commercial single-designs in terms of utmost speed.
   
5. A lot of effort has gone into coping with imperfections of affordable machines, i.e., various calibrations and compensations, all not exactly making things faster, but enabling even the smallest budgets around the world, and those without full-fledged mechanical workshop, tools and skills.
   
6. OpenPnP is written in Java. i.e., it has no real-time abilities, I doubt it will be possible to ever integrate true fly-by vision.
7. What you are talking about requires hardware-triggered single shot camera integration. AFAIK, you can't cover that using normal USB webcam interfacing. You could write a new OpenPnP camera class though, if you find an open  source compatible Camera SDK you can integrate. It might not support full real-time fly-by, but I'm sure it could still speed up vision a lot.
   

_Mark

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[bing luo]

If you use a flying camera for speed, you cannot use 3D printed feeders，3D printed feeders can only feed once every 2 seconds at the fastest. So only  have a fast camera is useless.

You have to  use industrial feeders (Siemens, Yamaha), and the price of one feeder is over $100. A machine requires more than 40 feeders. This is clearly not what openpnp's target user group needs. Openpnp users need  is  a   laboratory equipment, it's okay to be slower, it's better to use 3D printing  parts  to reduce costs.

[Developer Algo]

Just to answer a few of your questions. Here is my setup 

1.   PnP Machine Controller  ==> Duet3  6XD plus 4 x 3HC expansion boards with RRF 3.6 and MODBUS RTU communication  to PLC 

2.   Feeders ==>  All Aluminum based Electrical Feeders  = 82 Electrical Yamaha Feeders 

3.   Fast Industrial Cameras (Mind Vision MV-SUA133GC ) with a complete SDK to be used = 3 x MV-SUA133GC

4.   X,Y-axis use Ballscrew 2550 with DFU  and  double diaphragm couplers  with NEMA 34 AC Servo Motors  and 1 Head with 6 Nozzles (Juki tips)

5    Fast SMC integrated Vacuum Generators  ( 6 units ) with Digital Pressure sensors 

6.   a complete Workstation PC with Dual CPUs Intel Xeon E-2690 , 256GB of DDR4 Memory and 2 TB of SSD  for OpenPnP and any other software needed 

7.   a complete Mitsubishi FX3U-48MR/ES PLC with  5 x FX2N-48ER Extension Modules for all the automation and all triggers 

8.   Panasonic Optical Sensors as Endstops with triggers x 10 units 

8.   ( Optional ) -- Add 3 x PCIe video capture cards /FPGA for extreme high speed image processing 

My goal is to show that OpenPnP software if enabled with some of the better hardware options is actually way better than most of the commercial offering out in the market

at the moment and can be used for both prototyping and production runs .

Why limit the possibilities and only have a narrow lane of possibilities. Allow your community to explore the extreme possibilities to push OpenPnP and then take the best possibilities to be used for improvements and keep adding those to the software 

[Trevor White]

Really impressive list of parts. Can’t wait to follow progress. Please send lots of updates as you build it. This might be a real showpiece for OpenPNP

Many thanks

Trev

On Sep 20, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Developer Algo <develope...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to answer a few of your questions. Here is my setup 

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[bing luo]

How do you plan to achieve the function of flying shooting with 6 cameras?  You need to modify a large amount of code of  openpnp.

There is a well made machine here, but obviously the bottom camera is limiting its speed.
https://youtu.be/nDV18H-Fxkk?si=jo0hLFlpI9-Ke7G9

[Developer Algo]

First , For Fly-By Vision you need at least a camera that has a Global Shutter with exposure time < 5 usec  and also Bandwidth at  5 Gb/s or 10 Gb/s (USB 3.1, 3.2  or 10 Gb/s IP connection to you OpenPnP and/or external vision system)  . Then you need high speed image processor either a Native Driver of your cameras as per your system or Capture cards or FPGA or simply an external complete Vision system with latency comms to  main controller at < 1 ~ 2 ms. Second , you need to integrate that to OpenPnP . Third, Fine turning and optimization of the entire Fly-By Vision and OpenPnP 

[SM]

> but obviously the bottom camera is limiting its speed

Also, extremely slow toy-motor powered feeders could affect the performance of your fast ball screw driven machine.
You can get ready-made, very reliable electric CL feeders that shoot out ten 0402 per second for currently about $75 and will last for many years.

[Developer Algo]

i recall that dude , when i started 6 months ago with my project and asked for some insights he wanted me to pay him for his designs.  He didn't want to give any insights on his machine or any help if you're building similar machine. It's fine with me because he has every right to do whatever he wants. My issue with him was that he was asking for help everywhere on openPnP and Duet3 Forums which are all open source software/hardware but if you asked question he wants to be paid. Nah Nah Nah!!!

On Friday, September 20, 2024 at 12:56:51 PM UTC-4 tianl...@gmail.com wrote:

[Zdenko Stanec]

I am sorry, what? What are you talking about?

"He didn't want to give any insights on his machine or any help if you're building similar machine. "

You have all the informations from the machine on multiple videos, I am sorry but I will not answer every single question if I have already answered it numerous times on various videos.

"help everywhere on openPnP and Duet3 Forums" 

Are you kidding me? :D.... I have one topic on Duet Forum, and maybe 2 posts here on OpenPnP regarding Vacuum Sensors.

I would say, get some work done before you start asking questions.

[Developer Algo]

i am not going to indulge in this. I watched all your videos to try get a sense of what your were trying to build and accomplish. i was impressed at your dedication and i commend you for that. The amount of work and CNC machine work involved in your designs and creating the parts was impressive. When i asked if you could share your design files for your PnP Machine , you said no and said you will sell to me the design files only for $2900 , i still have that conversation BTW. I said no and that was the end of the story. It's your designs, your machine , your configuration  and you can do whatever you like with it , its your right and no one is blaming you for that.

All i am saying , Just make sure that you also give back to same community that is helping / helped you out during your builds. You don't need to answer every single question for you to give back. Duet3 & OpenPnP are Open Source Projects and they need your support in order to continue serving the Open Source communities. 

FYI, So i decided to build my own small PnP Machine based on my own designs and a ton of help from several experienced OpenPnP and Duet3 Forum users. 

[Zdenko Stanec]

I am sorry you got hurt for not seeing all the details from the machine so you can copy my design also I see what you are trying to do here, and you will not pull me into this discussion.

The complete machine is my own design, based on many years of experience. Nothing is taken from the community, and at this point, I see you’re upset because there is "not much" you can find on the internet from this build or not much for you to finish your own build. I see you have searched quite hard to find some topics related to this, but in the end, you are left hanging with not much available. It must feel devastating, for sure.

I am probably the first one who started building a more serious machine that will run OpenPnP and decided on the Duet platform. As mentioned, I have only one open topic on the Duet forum and maybe 2-3 topics here, and none are related to mechanical design or even "choosing the right controller." or what ever.  The topics are purely about some simple OpenPnP adjustments and some possible bugs.

These few topics I have shared are open for the community to see and learn from. The complete machine, with details is available to be seen on YouTube. I also promote OpenPnP and Duet3 on my design, where both names are engraved or 3D printed into various parts of the machine, which can also be seen in the videos. This has a direct impact on OpenPnP and Duet3. I am 100% sure you chose Duet 3 and the same hardware I have just because of my videos, as many other users did.

If you cannot build the machine from the shared videos, I propose that you don’t even start with such a build. Again, expecting to get the files for free, when I spent 1 year in development with the knowledge I acquired over the last 15 or more years in mechanical design and electronics, you should be grateful that you even got this. In the end, you are not buying the files, you are buying my time and experience.

What have you even shared so far with the community to bring this topic to me? You are not in a position to "school me" on such topics, as you have much to learn.

You didn’t get what you wanted, and now it’s the easiest thing to "flame" someone who has shared more than you ever will.

Life is tough buddy, get a helmet.

Good luck with your machine.

[Developer Algo]

Good luck to you for sharing your videos. Your designs are yours to use and do whatever you want with them. unfortunately, i didn't base my designs on your machine. Your designs were a little basic compared to what i was looking to achieve in my specific DIY PnP project. Your designs and videos are great for educational purpose and the impact they created which is a great thing to do and Kudos to you for that. The assumption that someone is going to copy your design through your videos is too far-fetched and makes no sense. You are not the first person to design and build PnP machine in the world. There are thousands of extremely brilliant engineers who have built their own DIY PnP machines & shared their video builds that are way better than your PnP machine or my PnP Machine. It all depends on, if someone has the Engineering technical skills, funds and time to do such a DIY PnP project.

I think you are a little off the rails.  Have a nice day.

[Zdenko Stanec]

You are such a silly man Mr. Jacob James. 

Anyway, have a nice day.

[Developer Algo]

well that speaks volume of you and your character  Mr. Zdenko Stanec ( https://www.youtube.com/@zdenkostanec1622 ).  If you can't take positive criticism then get out of the kitchen. 

As i have said before you have every right to do whatever you want with your designs and PnP machine. Its your right and BTW , nobody cares or gives a damn what you do with your designs or PnP machine

and this nonsense ends here . Have a wonderful day 

[Zdenko Stanec]

😂

[Mike Menci]

 Juist a web that spotted my interest and I share it here : 

Industrial USB3 single board cameras for embedded vision are available online @ GET CAMERAS
Board-level / PCB cameras are suitable for product developments that require a single board camera module with small formfactor and low price. These board level cameras have a USB3 interface for power, communication and image transfer. A separate connector provides an input and output to sync multiple boardlevel cameras, hardware trigger the cameras or control external lighting. Board level cameras are often integrated into our customers product, like Ophthalmology devices, ANPR cameras, handheld devices, metrology devices and digital microscopes. Please contact us to discuss your project that requires an industrial USB3 single board PCB camera.