Reflow oven chose ?

[mojalovaa1]

Hi folks

I look for buy some small desktop reflow oven for electronics and LED , and on this moment  look me interested T962C , but  can not found  some one who have experience with that oven , if some one have  that oven please if can write opinions ?
All so interested me  some used small desktop reflow oven  if can buy in EU  but under max 1000 Euro prices .

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SMT-portable-small-SMD-reflow-oven_60588332158.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.157.2bd13975Nwy0Db

[alexander...@gmail.com]

I don't have experience with the T962C but you said you are interested in other options.

I considered different options for a while and chose the MINI-CONDENS-IT which is a Vapour Phase reflow machine (rather than convection or infrared).

It can be purchased in the EU from the manufacturer:

http://www.imdes.de/condens_uk/condens_uk_pdf/mini-condens_it_26-02-2016_uk-excl_price.pdf

I have mentioned being very happy with this machine once before in this channel however I have no affiliation with the company other than being a customer.

[Lisandro B]

There are terrible reviews about that oven, you will do much better with a standard cooking oven and a pid ramp controller

[evilwulfie]

you cannot believe everything you hear. For the price it works well once
you make the mods.
I have been using it for over a year with decent results

[Matt Brocklehurst]

I recently scrapped a t962b oven... useless even with mods. Bought a used Oki JEM310 batch oven - night and day difference.

Keep checking eBay they come up from time to time!

Sent from my iPhone

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[mojalovaa1]

All so I m interested for some small desktop version  reflow oven with 3  zone or more  but that can soldering lead free paste .

T962C look me nice because have  very big soldering zone , that is 400x600 mm and I will soldering max 250x350 mm pcb  , that look me that have  enough space  on the edges that not have unsoldering part ?

[Trampas Stern]

I got a T962A and found that parts reflowing under it elements but not between then. I am going to try some heat sheilds but kind of defeats the advantage of IR.

[Paul Kelly]

Any, non conveyor based, IR oven is junk.  And the conveyor based ones may well be junk too.

We have two convection ovens that we built for not much money and they work extremely well.

 

We use the elements and fans from fan forced ovens inside a toolbox that is inside wooden box lined with rockwool.

Done thousands of boards in them.

 

Don’t forget fume extraction. You’ll have the worst headache ever the next day if you do!

 

PK

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[mojalovaa1]

PK , can you please give me more image and information , I'm all so make one reflow oven and work solid but now I'm think maybe buy  original factory produced oven ?

[Paul Kelly]

I made a video (too lazy to type) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u83dPxrnl00

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[Matt Brocklehurst]

Hi Paul

Cool ovens - impressive :)

Matt

Sent from my iPhone

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[mojalovaa1]

Hi PK
Thanks allot for video , look me like very nice oven  , have you some video that we can see  process and all so  time for  soldering ?
I'm look few version IC heater  oven , and all so I'm make one  with 4x800W IC heater  , but better options is have  8x400W heater and  3 thermocouple  one  on buck side , one on middle and one on front  side , and control it  3+3+2 heater (3x buck + 3x middle + 2 front ) .
With that principle like is yours  is little problems  with high temperature  from down side ?

Have you some  picture with finished product ?

[Paul Kelly]

Hi PK
Thanks allot for video , look me like very nice oven  , have you some video that we can see  process and all so  time for  soldering ?

All reflow controllers, including ours, allow you to program the temperature curve for any duration.  The challenge is achieving reasonable ramp up times (ie the time it takes to go from a 150degreeC soak temperature to a 280degreeC reflow temperature) if your oven cant ramp quickly, then your boards will spend too much time at higher temperatures and you will have problems. This is why you need a LOT of power. For an oven the size of ours, a single phase power outlet is only just enough. Here’s a shot of the controller after a run.

The programmed reflow curve has step changes in temperature, so you can clearly see the ramp times. These are just about OK. We run lead free paste and our cycle time is 7 and half minutes.

 

I'm look few version IC heater  oven , and all so I'm make one  with 4x800W IC heater  , but better options is have  8x400W heater and  3 thermocouple  one  on buck side , one on middle and one on front  side , and control it  3+3+2 heater (3x buck + 3x middle + 2 front ) .

 

None of that matters anywhere near enough as having a great big fan blowing large amounts of very hot air around to even out the temperature. The hot air needs to be the main source of board heating

With that principle like is yours  is little problems  with high temperature  from down side ?

 

There is some direct IR heating of the boards from below, but the fan evens most of it out. Again, the most important thing is the big fan..

Have you some  picture with finished product ?

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[Daniel Dumitru]

​Nice ! 

Controller information it's available ?

I have googled for flow-o-matic without luck...

Br,

Daniel

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Paul Kelly]

J We built the flow-o-matic.   There’s nothing hard about PID control of a small oven. It’s based on one of these: https://shop.mikroe.com/mikromedia-3-pic18fj

We like them because the USB bootload process is so fast that we didn’t have to bother writing code to change the profile curve using the touchscreen. It’s just an array that we change in the source and reflash.

Happy to share the code…. But there are a few alternatives available that will work fine.

 

PK

 

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Dumitru
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 1:05 AM
To: ope...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Re: Reflow oven chose ?

 

​Nice ! 

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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[Daniel]

Please tell me : a standard of the shelf electrical convection oven would work ? I have the impression that it's the same thing.

DAniel

[Cristian Nicola]

it may or may not work, but you need to consider a few things:

- rezistive heating elements usually found on the convection oven have a long lag before they heat up and they will radiate heat long after you switch them off. no chance to pid control them good enough for a reflow so you will probably need infrared or halogen heaters (ideally halogens).

- if you use infrared or halogen heaters you will need to shield them up as the part directly under the "light" will heat up more than the rest. especially with IR certain parts (resistors, IC) will tend to overheat due to their color.

- you may or may not need to control the speed of the convection fan - out of the box it may be too strong and may blow out of place certain parts.

- the chamber may be too big to be able to achieve the recommended ramp-up times required by the solder paste you use you could try adding more heating elements or reducing the chamber size but it will be fairly difficult with a standard oven

- you will need to control the cooling as much as the temperature - it may be hard or impossible to add the exhaust and the fans required to do this. for a strong bond the cooling of the boards (to reduce thermal stress) is about as important as all the other zones of reflow.

Cris

[Paul Kelly]

Daniel, you are correct that both our ovens and a conventional convection oven use the same components. There are three key differences in construction though:

1.       The volume of our ovens is about 1/3 of the volume of a convection oven of the same power.

2.       Our ovens have better insulation

3.       Our ovens have active ventilation controlled by the system

1 and 2 mean that we can heat up the oven quickly, we get about 80degC per minute ramp  rate. This isn’t great, but it’s good enough. Check that your convection oven can do at least that.

3 means we can cool at more than 100degC per minute. The only way to do that with a convection oven is by opening the door. At which point you get a lung full of flux fumes. Believe me when I say that you’ll only do that once..

 

Make sense?

 

PK

From: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel
Sent: Thursday, 7 September 2017 12:50 AM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Re: Reflow oven chose ?

 

Please tell me : a standard of the shelf electrical convection oven would work ? I have the impression that it's the same thing.

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[DAniel Dumitru]

Thank you all for your answers.
Now I realize how many mistakes I have done.  (interesting thing it's that I was planning to buy one chinese oven)

I have a friend that tells me that it's using something like in picture below. BAsically it's an aluminum plate with a 2000W heater .
Indeed that tube heating resistor has a big inertia. What do you think about this ? Putting this on an enclosure and a an exhaust fan would be better than IR/halogen heater ?


br,
Daniel

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[Paul Kelly]

Thermal lag will cause you problems.

You might get OK results just using it as a skillet reflow surface. But you still need to deal with the fumes

 

Just type “fan forced” into ebay.

 

I found these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GENUINE-FAN-FORCED-OVEN-ELEMENT-BLANCO-OMEGA-2300W-EGO-p-n-20-41212-000-0316-/252817182959?epid=883041874&hash=item3add1410ef:g:OPYAAOSwSlBYy5EJ

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0214777077-Westinghouse-Fan-Forced-Oven-Fan-Motor-Kit-GENUINE-/222108343238?epid=1064886050&hash=item33b6b05bc6:g:bMYAAOSwiylXCgHj

 

On the first page. I’m sure there will be suppliers in your country.

 

 

Two details I didn’t mention..

There is a sheet of 5mm fiber cement between the stainless insert (the bit with the ramps on the ends) and the bottom of the tool box.

There is a small muffin fan drawing cool airflow through the space between the toolbox and the bench. This is where the fan motor and SSR are..

PK

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[Daniel]

THank you for details PK.

IT seems that those spare parts are very popular in Australia. HEre ovens are very much on natural gas.

Coming back to your solution :

https://youtu.be/u83dPxrnl00?t=230

at time 3.50 : you mention an air intake on left side. 

on the other side , on right hand , it's a motorized valve. 

How come that air does not get out on the left side ?

BR,

Daniel

[Paul Kelly]

THank you for details PK.

 

IT seems that those spare parts are very popular in Australia. HEre ovens are very much on natural gas.

 

Coming back to your solution :

https://youtu.be/u83dPxrnl00?t=230

at time 3.50 : you mention an air intake on left side. 

on the other side , on right hand , it's a motorized valve. 

 

It’s an air conditioning damper (which is just a fancy word for a lightweight butterfly valve). Here it is on ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-Stainless-Steel-220V-AC-Electric-Solenoid-air-Valve-Damper-Tight-Water-Steam-/401324589119?hash=item5d70cf403f you can see where I’ve modified it a bit to keep the plastic part away from the metal body.  I also replaced the plastic bushes with some bronze ones.

 

 

How come that air does not get out on the left side ?

 

Because hot air only rises and there’s nowhere for it to rise to go when the damper is closed.

 

You don’t need anything as big as those holes. I’m sure a 50mm valve would be fine. In the first one we built we used those sliding petals. They worked fine… for a while. Now that oven uses a metal disk in a wooden box. The disk gets lifted by an RC servo. That works fine too..

 

PK

 

 

 

 

BR,

Daniel

 

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+3, PK wrote:

Thermal lag will cause you problems.

You might get OK results just using it as a skillet reflow surface. But you still need to deal with the fumes

 

Just type “fan forced” into ebay.

 

I found these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GENUINE-FAN-FORCED-OVEN-ELEMENT-BLANCO-OMEGA-2300W-EGO-p-n-20-41212-000-0316-/252817182959?epid=883041874&hash=item3add1410ef:g:OPYAAOSwSlBYy5EJ

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0214777077-Westinghouse-Fan-Forced-Oven-Fan-Motor-Kit-GENUINE-/222108343238?epid=1064886050&hash=item33b6b05bc6:g:bMYAAOSwiylXCgHj

 

On the first page. I’m sure there will be suppliers in your country.

 

 

Two details I didn’t mention..

There is a sheet of 5mm fiber cement between the stainless insert (the bit with the ramps on the ends) and the bottom of the tool box.

There is a small muffin fan drawing cool airflow through the space between the toolbox and the bench. This is where the fan motor and SSR are..

PK

 

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[Trampas Stern]

I am frustrated with my T962A, so I am going to build setup like PK's. 

One idea I had was to use stainless food service trays for the inside, around ($30) in parts. 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-full-size-standard-weight-anti-jam-stainless-steel-steam-table-hotel-pan-6-deep/4070069.html

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-8-qt-full-size-steam-table-hotel-pan-cover/92277200.html

Optionally if deeper box is needed you could start with one of these, you still would need a lid (or piece of sheet metal)

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-w50-12-x-20-full-size-electric-countertop-food-warmer-120v-1200w/177W50.html

Of course you still need the convection heater assembly and fan, cheapest I found is around $70 used on ebay. 

I was wondering if instead of servo damper if a backdraft damper would work on the outlet, and then have a fan on the inlet, which the software controls? 

https://www.amazon.com/Fantech-9800000-RSK-4-Backdraft-Damper/dp/B000CDAFE6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1505223530&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=4%22+backdraft+damper&psc=1

I have ordered the parts to build mine using food warmer, and will keep you guys updated.   

Trampas

www.misfittech.net

[SMdude]

Hi Trampas,

Do you place your boards directly on the tray or have you got something that holds the panel up off the tray?

I use some 1/4" aluminium dowl on the corners of my panels and if needed some to support the middle so the board can't sag.

One thing with the t962a is the heat up time. I have noticed that it had a fair lag on the heating ramps. I sometimes use a hot air gun through the fan vent at the back to help it warm up faster. It could be a worthy mod for these ovens, then we get a bit of hot air circulating too.

I tried a panel flat on the tray the other day, at the start of the cooling cycle the solder had only just started to melt so I opened the tray and blasted it with hot air until everything flowed.

Cheers

[Trampas Stern]

I place boards on the tray. 

The T962A heats board uneven, half board reflows and other half does not, I tried adding shields to the IR elements which helped but it appears the edges of the PCB are still cold. I also thought about adding a hot air gun to the oven to circulate the heat. An issue with the T962A and convection is the open bottom design of the oven which would require a redesigned.  I did a design on paper to add a circulation fan and close up bottom as well as add external vent (yea it stinks up shop). After I did the design I decided it would be easier and make a better solution to copy PK's design. 

I think you can build a design like PKs for about the same cost as the T962A and would perform much better.  

Many people told me the T962 were junk, but I guess I needed to learn  for myself... 

[Paul Kelly]

I am frustrated with my T962A, so I am going to build setup like PK's. 

 

One idea I had was to use stainless food service trays for the inside, around ($30) in parts. 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-full-size-standard-weight-anti-jam-stainless-steel-steam-table-hotel-pan-6-deep/4070069.html

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-8-qt-full-size-steam-table-hotel-pan-cover/92277200.html

 

We used wire mesh from the gardening store J  I suppose you could get fancy with it if you wanted! 

 

Optionally if deeper box is needed you could start with one of these, you still would need a lid (or piece of sheet metal)

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-w50-12-x-20-full-size-electric-countertop-food-warmer-120v-1200w/177W50.html

 

These actually look pretty good. You may still benefit from cramming some more insulation in there as, I guess, they are only designed for 100degC or so. But otherwise they are nice..

Of course you still need the convection heater assembly and fan, cheapest I found is around $70 used on ebay. 

 

You can probably get a set from the rubbish tip,  Look for second hand ovens from kitchen renovations??  But $70 is pretty cheap.

 

 

I was wondering if instead of servo damper if a backdraft damper would work on the outlet, and then have a fan on the inlet, which the software controls? 

https://www.amazon.com/Fantech-9800000-RSK-4-Backdraft-Damper/dp/B000CDAFE6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1505223530&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=4%22+backdraft+damper&psc=1

 

That one looks like it might leak a bit more than the one I used (which has a nice silicone seal) but controlling the fan on the inlet will help  a lot, our ovens are connected to the workshop extraction system which runs constantly.  BTW the one we used isn’t a servo damper, you just connect 240V to two of the three wires and it opens. Connect 240V differently and it closes. We use a relay…

 

 

I have ordered the parts to build mine using food warmer, and will keep you guys updated.   

 

Keen to hear how you get on.

 

PK

 

 

Trampas

www.misfittech.net

 

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[Trampas Stern]

PK, thanks for the feedback... 

My mental model for the system comes down to two things:

1. Power input to ramp up temperature, here you can reduce incoming power by more insulation, better sealing, and low thermal mass.

2. Power output to ramp down temperature, here you need control the cooling to ramp down (or use power in to compensate if cooling is to fast). 

Here in the US we typically have 15A 120V outlets for houses, 25A for industrial.  With 15A you only have 1800 Watts of power to play with, so you have to have small thermal mass and good insulation to get fast temperature rise times.  Of course you could use 25A 120V or 220V power source but that can be harder for some people to find.  

I am sure with a 25A 220V circuit I can add enough heating elements to heat the box and overcome most problems, however it would be nice to power off 15A 120V circuit. 

The parts should be here next week and I can check and see how they perform.  

I figured in worse case I can add insulation to the inside of the food warmer using wire mesh to hold insulation in place, this would remove the stainless steel from thermal mass that needs to be heated, and hence heater only needs to heat the air, PCB and wire rack. 

Trampas

[Paul Jones]

Do you have two different 15A circuits near each other in a convenient place? You could attach one bank of heaters to each circuit. If you want you can later convert it to 220V by wiring the heaters in series.

 

 

Paul.

 

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Trampas Stern
Sent: Wednesday, 13 September 2017 9:08 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Re: Reflow oven chose ?

 

PK, thanks for the feedback... 

[Cyril]

Hi,

Small desktop ovens are always little bit compromise. Cheap stock products coming from China are disappointing when you start to use them.

You can build better one yourself modding old micro-oven or furnace. Slightly bigger ovens and motion flow motorized reflow stations are better choice if you compare price/value.

Recently I bought PUHUI T-960, which is also desktop type, but it takes the whole desk space, and I am quite satisfied by its build quality and usability out of the box.

This guy is also happy with his oven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C6kDTDd6H0

So my recommendation for oven is, if you have some spare space get bigger one, price difference does worth.

Regards

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 5:56:44 PM UTC+3, mojalovaa1 wrote:

Hi folks

I look for buy some small desktop reflow oven for electronics and LED , and on this moment  look me interested T962C , but  can not found  some one who have experience with that oven , if some one have  that oven please if can write opinions ?
All so interested me  some used small desktop reflow oven  if can buy in EU  but under max 1000 Euro prices .

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SMT-portable-small-SMD-reflow-oven_60588332158.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.157.2bd13975Nwy0Db

[Graeme Bridge]

When i was looking for an oven i looked into the desktop units and but he time you factor in the shipping then the messing around with them to get them working your better off looking for a used real reflow oven. I picked up this one for £600 which was about the same as the bench top by the time you factor in everything. Admittedly its big but value for money it was a bargain. You can find smaller units on eBay and the used machine websites for about the same money. there was a Makko on eBay last week.

[Paul Kelly]

Re the little Puhui T960. I suspect that moving the board past the heating elements (I assume this also has some convection fans) nearly completely negates any problems with hotspots.

 

I agree with Graeme on the costing. We budgeted  about $AU500 + that much again in time for our oven.  We probably spent about $1300 all up because we had to add a power circuit. I did look at local sources before we started though and there really was nothing available. This seems to be about 2/3rds of the price of one of those T960’s so it would definitely have been an option…

 

Power supply is a big factor in favor of tiny batch ovens. We just get by with about 2.5KW of draw which we get from two a dedicated single phase circuit.. That T960 has a peak power draw nearly double that!  It’s also a 3phase (or two phase in the USA) unit which might be a problem for some.

 

Hmm, it does look like it’s almost entirely IR based.  Still, a testimonial is a testimonial I guess.

 

PK

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[Daniel Dumitru]

I have bought components for it. If you are in europe i can give you hints for purchase

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[yaddatrance]

@PK: That is a very ingenious DIY reflow unit!

We went the other way from the recommendations here. We started with a 14' long 6 zone conveyor belt unit but it was a bit impractical for 

small board runs.

We tried converting an environmental chamber (a glorified convection oven) to a reflow but even though the heater was plenty big, the 

max ramp we could get was 1 deg C/sec because the volume was too large for the heater element which doesn't work well for some of

the lead-free solders we use. 

So we picked up a SMTmax AS-5060 https://www.smtmax.com/detail.php?id=225 (Cost ~$750 for a dent-ding unit from the manufacturer) 

and it works great for short board runs. 

Pro-tip: To change profiles on this model, press and hold in the RUN button while pressing the

soft ON/OFF button to get to the configuration menu. (Wasn't documented anywhere, had to contact the factory for that info)

While it looks externally similar to the T9XX ovens, the software and hardware internals is different. It does a good job of following the

set profile curves and can ramp at 2 deg C per second.

Only other recommendation (which actually applies to any desktop reflow oven) is to space the boards off the bottom plate with some standoffs.

[Trampas Stern]

I got my parts, the food warmer did not have insulation so I have installed insulation and the convection fan.  Doing a quick test with 120VAC I am able to ramp the temperature at about 1C/s.  From what I have read this should be OK, but 2-3C/s would be better.                                                                   

I can try adding insulation and aluminum foil on the inside of the stainless tub to reduce the thermal mass to see if I can ramp quicker or use higher input power to get faster temperature ramp up. 

The electric heating elements do have a delay in the response, ie thermal mass, as that after turning heat off the air temperature in the tub continued to increase up to 270C.  Hence using the heating elements active cooling and/or characterization of this delay will need to be included in the PID system.

Trampas

[Paul Kelly]

@PK: That is a very ingenious DIY reflow unit!

 

TA

 

We went the other way from the recommendations here. We started with a 14' long 6 zone conveyor belt unit but it was a bit impractical for 

small board runs.

 

 

I bet it does a great job.

We tried converting an environmental chamber (a glorified convection oven) to a reflow but even though the heater was plenty big, the 

max ramp we could get was 1 deg C/sec because the volume was too large for the heater element which doesn't work well for some of

the lead-free solders we use. 

 

 

It’s a good thing to have for thermal testing though.  We have a separate oven and freezer.  The freezer has a bottle of CO2 and a valve that dumps liquid CO2 into the freezer.  We added that after bumping into some guys from Alaska at a trade show….

 

A tip from us, take your boards out of reflow, let them sit for a day. Then put them through 2 thermal cycles to 85 deg C, opening the door to cool between cycles.  For bonus points vibrate them too.  This will help identify pillowing and other dry joint types that might otherwise sneak through QA.

 

So we picked up a SMTmax AS-5060 https://www.smtmax.com/detail.php?id=225 (Cost ~$750 for a dent-ding unit from the manufacturer) 

and it works great for short board runs. 

 

It looks good.. and seems to confirm the $1K price point for a decent small batch oven.  How much of the heating is (in your estimation) done by direct IR and how much is done by convection?

 

PK

[evilwulfie]

So we picked up a SMTmax AS-5060 https://www.smtmax.com/detail.php?id=225 (Cost ~$750 for a dent-ding unit from the manufacturer) 

and it works great for short board runs.

AS-5060




umm  Looks  like a T962A





Only difference is a fan inside ?
I have often thought that a fan would help out the t962.

[yaddatrance]

It does look like one but the heating element is differently arranged, different control and no side air vents, etc... basically only the outer shape is similar.

I would actually wager that the unit is actually a rebranded Qinsi model instead. (Still chinese, just different) The easiest way to tell is actually the handle, 

the rounded ones are qinsi, the square ones are the T96x family.

The T9xx models work ok if you don't mind putting some time and money into them. A friend has the little one and another one got a really big version.

IIRC "all" you have to do is, throw away the original controller and replace with a custom one or a kit, remove the stinky tape they use with some kapton

and reroute the air path. I have also seen links to people who re-flash the onboard but that wasn't available when my friends converted theirs so I have

nothing to share about how well that works.

The unit I got (AS-5060) really just worked out of the box so while YMMV, I love the thing myself... Basically after you spend an hour or two changing

the profile on a conveyor with these weird melty plastic strip thingies, pressing a button on a wee oven to make just a board or two feels priceless.

[evilwulfie]

I did the mods to my t962.  made a custom profile and it works for my prototyping all except for some HUGE parts i need to touch
up with a hot air station. all in all for my volume its fine. If i ever did 1000's i would upgrade.

the vents on the side are for the area where the PCB controller goes not the oven its self.

I may one day try a fan under the slide out tray if i can find a good high temp fan. 
No room above the elements.

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[yaddatrance]

That's exactly what my friend with the bigger version of the T96X did. 

He stole a motor from a convection oven (cause the shaft was spaced from the body) and riveted a couple baffles inside to make a low profile squirrel cage fan.

Next time I swing over I'll snap a pic, I thought it was pretty ingenious.

@PK: I would guess 50/50 IR/convection... it didn't reflow evenly when I tried covering the entire tray without leaving any gaps. 

(completely obvious in hindsight of course.) You can get away with a ~1" gap on the sides and ~2" gap in front and no gap in the rear 

The temperature is really even across the bed, but I find that I have to be mindful of where I place spacers because if the spacer is 

directly under a large component it can sink away just enough heat to leave a under reflowed part. I've seen fancy spacers that clip on the edge

that I've been meaning to try, but I have a very large pile of these thin pcb strips left over from depanelizing boards that works well enough

as long as you're mindful of where you place them.

[Trampas Stern]

I put insulation and aluminum foil inside the food warmer and I went from 30c to 250C in 2.5 seconds , 1.5C/sec with the 1800W heater. 

I was using the 1800W element that came with the oven. There is also an element that came with the convection fan, this element has resistance of ~30 ohms which means even with 220V it is only 1600watts. 

Generally what I have found during my research is that:

You want at least 1C/s better to have 2-3C/s

From what I read you do not want to ramp temperature faster than 3C/s as it can crack chips internally.  After the soak you want to rise to the peak temperature at around 1-2C/s from most solder pastes, the idea is to get up to the peak temperature fast before the flux burns off for the best soldering.  You do not want to stay at the peak temperature too long as it will burn and discolor boards.  So you have to ramp temperature down, often requires blowing in cold air. 

You have to have outside vent. 

The chemicals used and smell is not good for you and you need to have oven vented outside.  I am not sure a hood would help on the cheap chinese ovens as the T962A I have blows hot air out the bottom. Even if you did a toaster oven unit, you will want to vent it outside. 

IR or not. 

IR is great for low wattage as it can heat board faster (less heating of air, metal, etc) however it can be very uneven heating. If you use IR it might be ideal to have a microwave rotary table to put PCBs on and move the PCBs for more even heating, ie simulate a conveyor belt.  Still black ICs might heat more than white capacitors so you could still can have uneven heating. 

From all of this what I see is that if you want to have a really good reflow, you need more than 2000Watts to get the fast ramp. For us in the USA this means 220V/240V oven, not saying that you can not do it with small 120V ovens, reflective tape, and good insulation but it will be more difficult.

I will test my current design (highly insulated 1800W and see how it works),  if it does not work my next design will be 220V using hot water heater elements (really cheap). This should allow me to insulate outside of tub and gain more PCB space and still have the temperature ramp needed. 

Trampas

 

[Graeme Bridge]

My conveyor reflow is IR but it uses ceramic IR elements and lots of them, from memory its 23kw lol looking at the bench top chinese ovens they appear to use the quartz type elements so maybe changing to the ceramic would give a better radiation

[Paul Kelly]

 

The T9xx models work ok if you don't mind putting some time and money into them. A friend has the little one and another one got a really big version.

IIRC "all" you have to do is, throw away the original controller and replace with a custom one or a kit,

 

No way. Any IR based oven will have hotspots. We’ve had batches go through a 962 and one board come out black! You must have convection heating if you aren’t going to move the boards.

The controller is actually OK, we still use it with one of our ovens.

 

[Paul Kelly]

My conveyor reflow is IR but it uses ceramic IR elements and lots of them, from memory its 23kw lol looking at the bench top chinese ovens they appear to use the quartz type elements so maybe changing to the ceramic would give a better radiation

 

You may be right, I’ve seen those kinds of elements used in pro vacuum formers to provide even heating. Although I suspect it’s the conveyor that makes it work. Just moving the boards will make a big difference if you have hot spots.

 

PK

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[Cristian Nicola]

i still believe the halogens are worth a try - keep in mind there are halogens round tubes which will go around the convection fan :) 

Cris

[Graeme Bridge]

PK i think the conveyor is more for the zones. The oven has 3 banks of heaters each set at a different temp so your ramp up is done by the belt speed. Interestingly it has heaters both sides of the belt

[Trampas Stern]

On the T962A the issue I run into is the bands of heat, that is you can put a PCB (or panel in my case) in and see bands where it does not reflow.  More lower power elements, moving PCB, or convection would help fix this problem

I looked at fixing the T962x, sure you can upgrade firmware and controller to get better temperature measurement, but that will not fix the heat banding. You might be able to add aluminum foil over PCB  and do other tricks.  It might be possible to add convection fan to unit, however eventually you get to the point where you are trying to turn a Yugo into a Mercedes. For the money and performance I have not seen anything that beats PK's oven design, not even mine. 

[yaddatrance]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-7, PK wrote:

No way. Any IR based oven will have hotspots. We’ve had batches go through a 962 and one board come out black! You must have convection heating if you aren’t going to move the boards.

The controller is actually OK, we still use it with one of our ovens.

 

I'd guess/hope they fixed it by now, but a few years ago, the T9XX controllers had a near fatal flaw with really bad non-linear time dilation. Depending on how hard the unit was working, 

"time" would slow down or speed up, so you had to empirically generate a reflow profile. 

I agree, convection is almost a requirement for reliability and painlessness, but I can totally see the attraction of a $150 reflow oven... :) 

If I had more time than money, I would have gone the retrofit route myself.

[Paul Kelly]

 

I'd guess/hope they fixed it by now, but a few years ago, the T9XX controllers had a near fatal flaw with really bad non-linear time dilation. Depending on how hard the unit was working, 

"time" would slow down or speed up, so you had to empirically generate a reflow profile. 

 

Ah yes, having empirically generated our profiles, we went for many years without noticing this.  It was only when we had the second oven next to it that we realised this was happening. DOH!

You are correct then, there are some problems with this controller.

 

I agree, convection is almost a requirement for reliability and painlessness, but I can totally see the attraction of a $150 reflow oven... :) 

Don’t forget the $500 Porsche, and the $2000 private jet.  Alas, all these things remain elusive.

 

If I had more time than money, I would have gone the retrofit route myself.

Not factoring in time (they take a couple of days to put together) or the fact that you may need an additional power circuit, our ovens were below AU$500 in parts.  They lack some features but are (IMO) an adequate compromise.

It would be interesting to see one built on a smaller scale. There are smaller elements and fans available and I reckon that the smaller volume would give faster ramps.

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[yaddatrance]

@Trampas

Do you have a sufficient gap for the pcb off the table? banding sounds like the steel table is sinking heat away locally from the pcb. 

[eSlavko]

Hello...

I sourcing information how to build reflow oven. The oven that PK does seems nice for me. But I have some question/ideas. How big need to be? I think I will never build plate bigger than 20x15cm, so inner size should be few centimeters bigger to allow air circulate. So let be 25x20 centimeters. But what about height. The bigger the longer will take to heat. Does it need to be more than 5cm height?
And heat source. I just wondering if 1500W heat gun should be ok. So the gun should be mounted outside box and air regulated with PID controller blown into the box. On the bootom should be hole / exhaust.  Can this work?

[evilwulfie]

Doubt a heatgun can ramp up the temp fast enough. I use a t962A over purchased off of Ebay

i do all the modifications ( check internet ) and it is fine for small boards / runs.

it was low cost.  

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[eSlavko]

The air itself is at 350 degree Celsius just maybe 15-20 second after firing. But don't know how all that volume of oven will interact.

Dne ponedeljek, 19. februar 2018 12.19.32 UTC+1 je oseba Wulf Man napisala:

[evilwulfie]

https://www.7pcb.com/blog/lead-free-reflow-profile/

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[eSlavko]

I learned something new...
1'st time I hear for Slumping time....


Dne ponedeljek, 19. februar 2018 14.20.21 UTC+1 je oseba Wulf Man napisala:

[evilwulfie]

If you read about the oven i chose it is awful.  But for the price it is just fine for my light usage.
Compared to the alternatives which i just did not have the budget for  it was the only option.

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[mojalovaa1]

Hi folks again after long time.

Still have same problems with reflow oven , I wish buy some  small desktop reflow  oven ( best options is some  reflow oven like this :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C6kDTDd6H0 ) but I'm not sure what buy  because have some limit with max electric energy power ( 3x16A 230V )  for complete  work shop for now  and all so spaces limit .
Second options is like I'm say before :  https://www.ebay.com/itm/T-962C-Infrared-SMD-SMT-BGA-IC-Heater-Reflow-Ofen-Lotstation-400x600mm-2800-W/312702304773?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131231084308%26meid%3Dce31a5ed8b6b4b118433e2782849ef08%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D352724873824%26itm%3D312702304773%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109 but not have idea how that work on real job , I have one  DIY version  similar like that  but will not work allot I think because I'm use  still for  constructions and have allot oxidation .

Question is :
Some one is use T962-C reflow  ?
What is  experience ?
Have you some problems with soldering bigger component like capacitors and similar ?

Some one is use  T960 ?
What is  experience ?
Have you some problems with soldering bigger component like capacitors and similar ?

I need found some compromise  between prices and used spaces  and electric consumption .

[Juan-Antonio Søren E. Pedersen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXjTNS_xO2s  ✌

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[mojalovaa1]

I have DIY version for 350x300 mm PCB dimension  but  need something  for bigger panel and faster productions  , I'm found all so this but is not  for bigger panel PCB : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32830878068.html
Some one is use that 3 version PCB , can say how work ?

[Sandra Carroll]

Any of the T962 series ovens can work, but out of the box they need modifications to work well.  There’s plenty of doc on the web about this.  If you want plug and play don’t go with a T962 series oven.  If you are ok doing mods to make it work well then go for it

Just my opinion

Sandra

Sent from my iPhone 7 Plus

On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:45 AM, mojalovaa1 <moja...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have DIY version for 350x300 mm PCB dimension  but  need something  for bigger panel and faster productions  , I'm found all so this but is not  for bigger panel PCB : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32830878068.html
Some one is use that 3 version PCB , can say how work ?

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[mojalovaa1]

You have some other model that you can say this is solid for work ?
If I need  make allot changes then can make my own oven who will for 500% fine , but not have free time for do that .

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 5:50:51 AM UTC-7, Sandra Carroll wrote:

Any of the T962 series ovens can work, but out of the box they need modifications to work well.  There’s plenty of doc on the web about this.  If you want plug and play don’t go with a T962 series oven.  If you are ok doing mods to make it work well then go for it

Just my opinion

Sandra

Sent from my iPhone 7 Plus

On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:45 AM, mojalovaa1 <moja...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have DIY version for 350x300 mm PCB dimension  but  need something  for bigger panel and faster productions  , I'm found all so this but is not  for bigger panel PCB : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32830878068.html
Some one is use that 3 version PCB , can say how work ?

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[John Plocher]

I went with the BRT420 instead of the t962 because of all those ‘needs reworking ‘ comments, and have been pretty happy with it so far.

I’ve run several hundreds of boards thru it in the last year and have only a couple of problems - easily fixed early on by changing the reflow curves a bit...

http://m.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-7840318-hot-2500w-reflow-oven-brt-420-charmhigh-hot-air-infrared-300-300mm-soldering-rework-station.html?

  John

[mojalovaa1]

That look me same like T962 , is not ?
How much heating element have on that oven ?
You work with SMT electrolyte capacitor ?
That look me similar like this : https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Puhui-T937High-quality-SMT-machine-reflow_62054614025.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.38.6e916639R8tMQl

I need some oven with bigger soldering area  for that look for T962C or maybe  , but I'm not sure  , maybe can go with something like T-962A+

[evilwulfie]

open up your oven and take pictures.
It looks just line my t962 with a different overlay.

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[mojalovaa1]

What is yours opinions  and experience for that T962?

What you think about T962C ?

[evilwulfie]

I have one of each
they both work perfectly with the modifications.

On 7/21/2019 9:20 AM, mojalovaa1 wrote:

What is yours opinions  and experience for that T962?

What you think about T962C ?

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[mojalovaa1]

Can you please say me what need change  and how much that cost and how much time need for make changes ?

[evilwulfie]

https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements

On 7/21/2019 11:16 AM, mojalovaa1 wrote:

Can you please say me what need change  and how much that cost and how much time need for make changes ?

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[mojalovaa1]

I'm receive this PDF today from puhui factory  and that on real  can be  problem why some oven have  all time problems with temperature .
My DIY reflow have  air circulation  and not have allot problems  with temperature profile , now I'm  not sure what will be smart , buy new or again make my own :( 

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:18:12 PM UTC-7, evilwulfie wrote:

https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements




On 7/21/2019 11:16 AM, mojalovaa1 wrote:

Can you please say me what need change  and how much that cost and how much time need for make changes ?

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[Randy Park]

On Sunday, 21 July 2019 12:20:48 UTC-4, mojalovaa1 wrote:

What is yours opinions  and experience for that T962?

What you think about T962C ?

I've had a Puhui branded T962A for about 2 years. My work is custom measurement/instrumentation design, so I do not do high volume; 20 or 30 boards of one type is the most I've done.

What works/doesn't' work, tips:

- I did the Kaptron tape modification, that is a must

- I haven't done the controller modification (see below)

- I have a fairly low flow, 5" computer case fan behind the air exhaust, pointed at an angle into the exhaust. So basically, it does very little, but does stir the air around a little bit inside the oven. I think this makes a difference.

When I first got the oven, I put a thermocouple attached to a meter inside to measure the profile. It is pretty close to what it is supposed to be, but partly because of this test, and also because I noticed that when I was running several boards in a row, once the oven was warmed up, the boards came out nicely. I realized:

The first run is always a bit off in temperature. (I think this may be related to the oven heating up the controller board, one of the things that a mod is supposed to fix.) So,

I always do an empty run before my soldering run.

The max board size I've done is 100 mm x 220 mm. Parts at the ends of the 220 mm are sometimes a little underdone, and require manual touch up. I certainly wouldn't go longer than 220 mm. But most of my boards are smaller than that, and don't pose a problem.

Overall, despite the size of the oven, I would say the useful area is more like 150 mm x 200 mm. For these boards, and with the warm up run and the slight circulation with the fan, this has worked fine for me.

[Trevor Boicey]

I started with the T962 and upgraded to the T962A.

Both of them I modified using the web site just mentioned. The cost to modify is almost nothing, a roll of kapton tape, a $2 temperature sensor IC, wire, and solder.

You also need a serial programmer if you don't already own one, they are $10 or so at most on the big web sites.

For me both ovens worked well enough. The smaller one didn't work well around the edges but worked for the boards in the middle of the tray. The larger one seems to work better all around.

I would consider a larger one, but I would have to run a new 220v circuit so it would be a bit of a hassle. So I'm staying put at the moment.

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[Jarosław Karwik]

I did have T962C.

Works, but lacks air circulation to get even heat distribution.

I have switched to vapour phase reflow oven - and never had problems anymore

http://imdes.de/products-and-technologies/condensation-reflow-soldering-machines/?lang=en

Smaller, and suitable for low volumes - but with perfect quality of soldering.

W dniu poniedziałek, 22 lipca 2019 15:49:07 UTC+2 użytkownik Trevor Boicey napisał:

I started with the T962 and upgraded to the T962A.

Both of them I modified using the web site just mentioned. The cost to modify is almost nothing, a roll of kapton tape, a $2 temperature sensor IC, wire, and solder.

You also need a serial programmer if you don't already own one, they are $10 or so at most on the big web sites.

For me both ovens worked well enough. The smaller one didn't work well around the edges but worked for the boards in the middle of the tray. The larger one seems to work better all around.

I would consider a larger one, but I would have to run a new 220v circuit so it would be a bit of a hassle. So I'm staying put at the moment.

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:18 PM evilwulfie <evilw...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements




On 7/21/2019 11:16 AM, mojalovaa1 wrote:

Can you please say me what need change  and how much that cost and how much time need for make changes ?

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[Javier Hdez.]

Hello,

I use Picoreflow and works fine.

You can use any oven. I used one that was given to me unused in a store that had been returned because it did not work.

[Javier Hdez.]

Also the Andy diy oven is interesting. Works with Bluetooth

http://andybrown.me.uk/2015/07/12/awreflow2/

http://andybrown.me.uk/2014/05/11/awreflow/

[Javier Hdez.]

The Picoreflow is via web. I use it via Wifi.

[Brynn Rogers]

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 6:18:12 PM UTC-5, evilwulfie wrote:

https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements

This link is not working for me - I get a 'not found' page from github...

[evilwulfie]

just clicked on it works fine for  me dunno know what to say.

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[Trampas Stern]

I have the T962A and have done all the modifications and it almost works.  It still will leave parts of board near edges unsoldered. 

I have parts to build a vapor phase reflow, as well as parts to modify a convection counter top oven.  However have not gotten time yet.  

 

[Brynn Rogers]

Interesting,   I had my VPN turned on and it did not work.    I turned off the VPN and now the link works.

 Sorry for my confusion.

On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 11:20:10 AM UTC-5, evilwulfie wrote:

just clicked on it works fine for  me dunno know what to say.

On 7/22/2019 8:46 AM, Brynn Rogers wrote:

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 6:18:12 PM UTC-5, evilwulfie wrote:

https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements

This link is not working for me - I get a 'not found' page from github...

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[mojalovaa1]

HI
SOME ONE IN EUROPE SALE T-960 REFLOW OVEN , NEED BE  NEW AND BUY FROM COMPANY who can give official offers to me ?
Contact me to : eltron...@gmail.com

Thanks for help .

[Jarosław Karwik]

I have used  Aoyue HHL3000  

With VAT invoice from my company - located in Gdańsk.

W dniu czwartek, 25 lipca 2019 16:04:36 UTC+2 użytkownik mojalovaa1 napisał:

HI
SOME ONE IN EUROPE SALE T-960 REFLOW OVEN , NEED BE  NEW AND BUY FROM COMPANY who can give official offers to me ?

Contact me to : eltro...@gmail.com

Thanks for help .