OPEN PNP WITH RAMPS1.4

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Chetan Makwana

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Feb 9, 2017, 12:08:03 AM2/9/17
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Hello,
How easy to make open pnp machine with
ramps board? Just i gone through many conversations in group and felt that its little bit hard compare to smoothie board.
Or any other cheaper option for smoothieboard?

Oz-Ron

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Feb 9, 2017, 6:37:27 AM2/9/17
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G’Day Chetan,

If you need a PnP machine can I assume you can design & make prototype PCB’s?

 

This is the cheapest way to Smoothie:

http://www.nxp.com/products/software-and-tools/software-development-tools/software-tools/lpcxpresso-boards/lpcxpresso-board-for-lpc1769-with-cmsis-dap-probe:OM13085

 

Break it out to suit your needs.  (Debug probe section of the board can be snapped off to reduce board size.)

 

The Atmega alternative is cumbersome and outdated now in comparison to Smoothie.

 

Will share an LPCXpresso / Smoothie breakout PCB soon designed to be handmade (providing I gain approval from Arthur).

 

Have you started building or designing your machine?

 

Ron



Jason von Nieda

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Feb 9, 2017, 7:05:17 AM2/9/17
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Hi Chetan,

RAMPS hardware is fine, but there is no good firmware for it that works well for a pick and place. Please have a look at the new Motion Controllers Wiki: https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Motion-Controllers

Jason


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Lisandro B

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Feb 9, 2017, 7:30:30 AM2/9/17
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Cri S

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Feb 9, 2017, 4:11:12 PM2/9/17
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What Problems you encountered with the 4axis grbl

Chetan Makwana

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Feb 12, 2017, 11:01:52 AM2/12/17
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yes i am going to make machine as attached image.
Printer.PNG

Genie Kobayashi

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Feb 12, 2017, 6:25:35 PM2/12/17
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Hi Chetan,
 
Recently, Panucatt Devices released Re-ARM Controller for RAMPS after successful funding at Kickstarter. It can be replaced Arduino MEGA with Smoothie running 32-bit board. It should be fine for OpenPNP if you already have RAMPS1.4 and want it survive.

Genie

Jason von Nieda

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Feb 12, 2017, 6:33:23 PM2/12/17
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Oh wow, that's a great board and a great idea! I really like that. Would give me something to do with all these RAMPS I have laying around! :)

Nice find Genie!

Jason


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Genie Kobayashi

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Feb 12, 2017, 7:27:14 PM2/12/17
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Yeah, indeed!! Roy at Panucatt Devices already has Smoothieboard based Azteeg X5 mini 32BIT All-in-one Controller in his shop catalog so his design is reliable. I have X5 mini for Shapeoko2 and bucked Re-ARM, which was delivered in last month and mind to use for OpenPNP for now.

Genie

2017年2月13日月曜日 8時33分23秒 UTC+9 Jason von Nieda:

Chetan Makwana

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Feb 13, 2017, 3:58:39 AM2/13/17
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Arthur Wolf

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Feb 13, 2017, 4:21:15 AM2/13/17
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It's a closed-source derivative of open-source work, it doesn't respect the documentation's license, it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it, it doesn't provide proper support to it's customers and puts that charge on the community it's destroying. In one word : parasite.
If you don't care about Open-Source I guess it's a good option ( though it does have some conception problems, see reprap forums for example ).
But the basic idea here is everything you'll love about the board ( and there will be a lot of things you'll love, it runs Smoothie ), you are helping destroy with your purchase.
 

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 10:38:03 AM UTC+5:30, Chetan Makwana wrote:
Hello,
How easy to make open pnp machine with
ramps board? Just i gone through many conversations in group and felt that its little bit hard compare to smoothie board.
Or any other cheaper option for smoothieboard?

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Cri S

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Feb 13, 2017, 4:33:01 AM2/13/17
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It would be helpful for new openpnp users if there is a wiki page that describe the ready to use hardware with config and indicative pricing.
Example legacy smoothie board, low cost mks board including vacuum sensors, lightning controls, example photos of lightning setup that's works,
height toolprobe, ui panels (USB keyboard emulation), link for feeder solenoid driver (https://github.com/kopfkopfkopfaffe/ALLtheLEDS?files=1) and sw module on smoothie board for driving vacuum sensors and feeder drivers.

SMdude

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Feb 13, 2017, 6:53:18 AM2/13/17
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I have to agree with Arthur on this.
The price for a genuine smoothie is not all that much in the scheme of things.
For all of us who have made the decision that "I think I need a pick and place machine" and ended up here, you must have made some innovations of some kind, you have worked hard to make the designs that you want to build and you have every right to make an income from it.
And how many of you have had try hards attempt to to follow in your footsteps and copy your work to try and make a profit from it, or try and tell the world "oh, look what I built, it was so easy" (when someone else does the hard work designing, testing, improving etc).

Support the innovators just like yourselves, not the copiers! Otherwise they will innovate no longer :( And the copiers will have nothing left to copy!

Thats my rant for the day! :D

Cheers


On Monday, 13 February 2017 20:21:15 UTC+11, Arthur Wolf wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Chetan Makwana <cheta...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a closed-source derivative of open-source work, it doesn't respect the documentation's license, it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it, it doesn't provide proper support to it's customers and puts that charge on the community it's destroying. In one word : parasite.
If you don't care about Open-Source I guess it's a good option ( though it does have some conception problems, see reprap forums for example ).
But the basic idea here is everything you'll love about the board ( and there will be a lot of things you'll love, it runs Smoothie ), you are helping destroy with your purchase.
 

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 10:38:03 AM UTC+5:30, Chetan Makwana wrote:
Hello,
How easy to make open pnp machine with
ramps board? Just i gone through many conversations in group and felt that its little bit hard compare to smoothie board.
Or any other cheaper option for smoothieboard?

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Oz-Ron

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Feb 13, 2017, 8:52:13 AM2/13/17
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G’Day Jason,

 

Given Arthur's sentiment, do you think it might be fair to remove the following from the OpenPnP documentation?

 

 

  • MKS SBASE: A popular Smoothie clone. Cheap, but not very well supported.

Keep up the great work!  It just gets more & more impressive every update.

Cheers,

Ron


fšk

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Feb 13, 2017, 8:59:06 AM2/13/17
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" it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it"

that is not completely true. it does contribute to the project by making it available to many more people. which in turn makes many more people able to contribute to the software part of the project (which would benefit all smoothie users). 

it is hard to contribute though as i know from personal experience that mentioning that you have a MKS board will only get you a 15 minute lecture about open source...

i can buy the smoothie 5xc for 200EUR  (unfortunately i can not afford this)
or i can buy a mks base for 54EUR

both prices include shipping and tax.

I'm not writing this to defend the MKS guys but i did want to get this out of my system because i read the "it doesn't contribute to the project in any way" line too many times now (raprap forums,hackaday and many many threads in different google groups).

with that out of the way, i really think somebody should make an adapter board for arduino due with PNP in mind. there is a great firmware written for it https://github.com/ambrop72/aprinter which has per step acceleration and impeccable step timing (checked it with a logic analyser).  as the Due has more IO it would be easier to control everything from one board... plus Due clones are dirt cheap:)




On Monday, 13 February 2017 10:21:15 UTC+1, Arthur Wolf wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Chetan Makwana <cheta...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a closed-source derivative of open-source work, it doesn't respect the documentation's license, it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it, it doesn't provide proper support to it's customers and puts that charge on the community it's destroying. In one word : parasite.
If you don't care about Open-Source I guess it's a good option ( though it does have some conception problems, see reprap forums for example ).
But the basic idea here is everything you'll love about the board ( and there will be a lot of things you'll love, it runs Smoothie ), you are helping destroy with your purchase.
 

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 10:38:03 AM UTC+5:30, Chetan Makwana wrote:
Hello,
How easy to make open pnp machine with
ramps board? Just i gone through many conversations in group and felt that its little bit hard compare to smoothie board.
Or any other cheaper option for smoothieboard?

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Jason von Nieda

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Feb 13, 2017, 9:19:17 AM2/13/17
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Yes, agreed. It's been removed. 

I saw https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-SBASE and foolishly assumed that meant it was open source but I've looked again and there's no source there.

Arthur and his team have put an enormous amount of work into making Smoothie what it is today, and I feel it's important to pay respect to that effort. I won't advertise a competing, closed source clone product.

Jason


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Arthur Wolf

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Feb 13, 2017, 9:21:22 AM2/13/17
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 2:59 PM, fšk <fsk...@gmail.com> wrote:

" it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it"

that is not completely true. it does contribute to the project by making it available to many more people. which in turn makes many more people able to contribute to the software part of the project (which would benefit all smoothie users). 

Smoothie v2 is more than a year late *mostly* because of the sales MKS is taking away from the various Open-Source Smoothie-based boards that *do* contribute to the project.
It's a huge project that does a lot of new things, it's so huge we actually had to find more than $15k to pay contributors for various tasks ( including moving to a RTOS ). And we'll have to find a lot more before the project is done.
MKS is not only not contributing to that effort ( from which they will of course profit anyway ), they are actually slowing it down by taking ressources away from the companies that *do* help with the effort.

About your argument more specifically of "MKS means more users, which would in turn contribute", it so happens that I actually keep track of *everyone* who helps or offers to help, and talk to each person extensively to figure out how they can help, if they need any help etc. And I can tell you that despite MKS boards now being the majority of Smoothie-based boards in the world, MKS users are in extremely small minority of actual contributors to the project. So you are mistaken on this. It's all bad, and no good ( mostly ).

The kind of person who would contribute to the project, is *also* the kind of person who would wait a few more weeks to actually have the money to buy the board that supports the project. ( generalizing here of course, there are exceptions, but exceptions don't do much to help ).

it is hard to contribute though as i know from personal experience that mentioning that you have a MKS board will only get you a 15 minute lecture about open source...

Interestingly, a lot of folks aren't aware of the content of the 15 minutes open-source lecture, and are actually thankful to learn the content of the lecture. We even have some folks sending back their MKS boards ...
If you don't care about learning this it's fine, the message is only for those that care about it, and you are allowed to ignore it.

i can buy the smoothie 5xc for 200EUR  (unfortunately i can not afford this)
or i can buy a mks base for 54EUR

So if MKS didn't exist you wouldn't be buying a Smoothieboard ? I seriously doubt that, but ok, I have no way to prove anything either way ...
I definitely hear the "I have the money to buy the MKS but not the money to buy the Smoothieboard" line from much more folks than I would reasonably expect in a community of people that have the money of building cnc machines. It's probably true for a few of them, but it can't be for all of them ( might be in your case, not accusing you ). I expect most of them would have the money to do the right thing if they waited a bit, but convince themselves they are justified with flimsy excuses. The fact we live in a society in which everyone expects to get everything *right now* doesn't help either.

Note you don't have to buy a Smoothieboard, there are for example azteeg and cohesion boards that run Smoothie and are closer to $100. I believe the Re-arm with a ramps shield is lower than $100, though shipping and taxes might change that depending on where exactly you are.
It's not about buying a Smoothieboard, it's about not buying the board that destroys the project it's profiting from.

And about 54€ : The Smoothie project, as part of the v2 series of boards, is actually working on a board that would be around that price. But everybody buying MKS boards is delaying it's release.
If you had bought one of the open-source boards, you would have helped *everyone* have access to an inexpensive *open-source* smoothie-based boards.
Buying a MKS does the opposite.

 

both prices include shipping and tax.

I'm not writing this to defend the MKS guys but i did want to get this out of my system because i read the "it doesn't contribute to the project in any way" line too many times now (raprap forums,hackaday and many many threads in different google groups).

You read it because it's true and lots of folks don't know about it, and want to know about it. The messages aren't for those that don't care, it's for those that do.

with that out of the way, i really think somebody should make an adapter board for arduino due with PNP in mind. there is a great firmware written for it https://github.com/ambrop72/aprinter which has per step acceleration and impeccable step timing (checked it with a logic analyser).  as the Due has more IO it would be easier to control everything from one board... plus Due clones are dirt cheap:)

I wanted to note here : Aprinter was written originally after a discution about smoothie not having per-step accel, kind of as a demonstration of how to get that. Smoothie now has per-step accel.
 




On Monday, 13 February 2017 10:21:15 UTC+1, Arthur Wolf wrote:


On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Chetan Makwana <cheta...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a closed-source derivative of open-source work, it doesn't respect the documentation's license, it doesn't contribute to the project in any way even though it wouldn't exist without it, it doesn't provide proper support to it's customers and puts that charge on the community it's destroying. In one word : parasite.
If you don't care about Open-Source I guess it's a good option ( though it does have some conception problems, see reprap forums for example ).
But the basic idea here is everything you'll love about the board ( and there will be a lot of things you'll love, it runs Smoothie ), you are helping destroy with your purchase.
 

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 10:38:03 AM UTC+5:30, Chetan Makwana wrote:
Hello,
How easy to make open pnp machine with
ramps board? Just i gone through many conversations in group and felt that its little bit hard compare to smoothie board.
Or any other cheaper option for smoothieboard?

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Александр Зендриков

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Feb 14, 2017, 4:03:53 PM2/14/17
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My machine works fine on MKS Sbase 1.4
Message has been deleted

Jason von Nieda

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Feb 14, 2017, 4:28:24 PM2/14/17
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Hi Glen,

I wrote the Wiki page, and added the reference to begin with. It is absolutely both my business and my place to choose to remove it. The whole rest of the world can shout MKSBASE from the mountaintops if they like, but I'm choosing not to. It is an illegal product and does not deserve a showcase on my site.

Jason




On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 3:20 PM Glen English <gleneng...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jason

I disagree strongly with having the MKSBASE boafrd reference removed

By all means make people aware this is NOT a genuine open source board and you can  make everyone aware in whatever language you like and going into detail and reasons

BUT I think that it is not your business or place to decide to censor things.....



On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 1:19:17 AM UTC+11, Jason von Nieda wrote:
Yes, agreed. It's been removed. 


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Rich Obermeyer

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Feb 14, 2017, 4:40:54 PM2/14/17
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My 2cents.
I have seen the open source hardware movement suffer considerably.  
I have even commented here that anyone buying a cheap clone is doing the OSH movement a disservice by doing so.  
While everybody makes the choices which product they buy, the development teams can't build prototypes for free and you will not see advancement by doing so.
I support the original developers not the cheap copies that do not contribute (when possible).
Arthur has done a lot for the controller market and is a considerable resource.  Most of those clones are just copying his teams work.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:20 PM, Glen English <gleneng...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jason

I disagree strongly with having the MKSBASE boafrd reference removed

By all means make people aware this is NOT a genuine open source board and you can  make everyone aware in whatever language you like and going into detail and reasons

BUT I think that it is not your business or place to decide to censor things.....


On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 1:19:17 AM UTC+11, Jason von Nieda wrote:
Yes, agreed. It's been removed. 


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Jason von Nieda

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Feb 14, 2017, 5:38:40 PM2/14/17
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Glen,

Your lecture is misguided, incorrect and not welcome here. This subject is closed. If you would like to lecture people who volunteer thousands of hours of their lives to making this technology free for everyone then you are welcome to do it somewhere else. This group will not be used to discuss the merits of violating people's licenses.

Jason


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 4:25 PM Glen English <gleneng...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a difficult subject .The open-source righteousness is fine, but :

I think you are all  being a bit too self righteous. Time for a lecture :

Consider the the rest of the world of people who do not work and live in US dollars that work in Rupees, CNY, other currency and to get out of your splendid ivory towers.

Consider where labor rates are 1/10 th  what they are in developed countries.

Consider that the affordability of the genuine smoothie hardware is about 1/3 that of the copy.

Are you gong to let your righteousness get in the way of Mr Subcontinent  who can now afford Smooth technology because a board only costs him 1 week's wages., instead of 3 weeks wages ?   

I think it is an overall society   benefit that people who could not afford it can otherwise afford it.

So my advice is  just be happy that those people have access to technology and facility that they would not otherwise have access to. 

You all have benefited from Chinese copies of something. 
OK so some guy at MKSbase  makes 1 dollar per board he has ripped off, what the overall society benefit I think is worth it.
Don't you think that there is benefit is providing access to tech ?

I think actually MKSBASE has done a service by providing low cost access.

How many of you use cheap chinese copies of something in your machines eh ? 
Where are you going to draw the line ?

My view is , If you can afford to pay , you should. I buy the genuine Smoothie because I can afford to.
I encourage others that cannot afford it to buy the MKSBASE. 
Otherwise you end up with a class and society divide for the people that can afford (the haves) and the peopel that cannot afford (the have nots)

just like college education. education must be free so we have a equal opportunity society .

I would be peeved at people , those who can afford to pay like myself if they bought cheap.
I would be encouraging of people that cannot afford to pay to be MKSBASE with full dignity.

Just remember your ivory towers and that the developed countries have very different ideas to what is affordable and what is not
I feel there are people here that have no idea about what it is to live in a country that is poor or has low wages compared to the USA etc.



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