Jerk settings - Axis Configuration - latest OpenPnP installed

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Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 2:51:01 AMApr 2
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I had a working PnP and have installed latest version of OpenPnP (on top of previous several months old version). After installation,  my PnP was not working until I found in I&S that I need to change settings in Axis configuration for all my axis . 
I have Yashkawa servo drives on my X and Y axis and I use steppers only on Head.  X and Y axis were moving very very slow at the start.

I needed to set very high values of "Jerk" in order to get some speed out of my Servos and steppers. I could not find in Wiki which values should I use... - I still have no rotation on my 4 nozzle steppers... 
I managed somehow to get homing working - but after homing my PnP "Jumps" (very fast move in X and Y to up_camera location and stops there. I hear some strange sound - I think from my 4 rotation steppers - they do not rotate at all - and I can not move out from this location .... I need to restart OpenPnP and do homing again - the same error is there and I am stuck here . 

I need to restart PnP several times to get Schultz COM port to be recognized.. 


I need help to get PnP beck to working condition. 

- enclosed - screen shot Axis C1 - see jerk values .. Config and I&S +trace-traceLog

2024-04-02 08_31_57-OpenPnP - I&S.png
Trace-TraceLog.txt
2024-04-02 08_33_19-D__config.txt - Notepad++.png

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 2:52:30 AMApr 2
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Axis C1 Settings enclosed 
Rotational axis C1.png

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 3:02:11 AMApr 2
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Trace Trace - at erorr  - restart needed - why ?  
Trace-trace-2.txt

mark maker

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Apr 2, 2024, 4:00:57 AMApr 2
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Hi Mike,

I cannot see how updating from only a few month ago can have such a disruptive impact. You must have changed other things too. Also I don't see how the Jerk setting has anything to do with it.

From the log:

Your Smoothie seems to lose connection (Read error). Any electrical/ground problems on USB? Isolator present?

Your fiducial pipeline also has a problem. I recommend using the stock pipeline.

_Mark

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Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 4:10:56 AMApr 2
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Thanks Jan & Mark ...
I got Open PnP a bit further now- my rotation axis still couse error as soon as I try to rotate 1 of 4 axis its a error . 
- see enclosed Log trace trace - latest to where I came...- I did some calibration after auto calibration of nossels is set to manual I can get all motions except rotation of nozzles !! ??? 
 Why does my rotation  of 1 of 4 nossles  kick out OpenPnP and restart is needed ? 
Can you see anything in Log ?? 

trace-trace.txt

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 4:12:58 AMApr 2
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To clarify - I did not do anything to software change - I upgraded my mechanics of Vacuum and I ended up where I am now...

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 4:18:09 AMApr 2
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My self as well I wonder why I needed to set "Jerk" for my Servo drives to higher values ..... 

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 4:25:39 AMApr 2
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I needed to drasticly  higher all values in Kinematic settings for X and Y servos to work 
Kinematic settings.png

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 7:14:35 AMApr 2
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Yes I do loose my USB port to start the PnP on the beginning but after that when I home the machine the Port stays working... 

I disconnected my 4 rotation steppers from smoothie and I tried all motions again and homing works, x, y, z1 & z2 works but again as soon as I try to rotate (Jog) one of not wired rotation steppers connection fails and I need to restart the OpenPnP   -- why is this happening ? 

See trace trace enclosed ( at 13h today local time).   


trace-trace13.01h 1.txt

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 7:21:33 AMApr 2
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Repeated test again re-start needed ??? 
trace trace -13.19h  
trace-trace13.19h .txt

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 7:47:44 AMApr 2
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I take a lunch brake -
my latest log enclosed - all works just rotation remains problem and restart is needed. 
Log 13.40h 
Trace-Trace 13.40h

derek....@gmail.com

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Apr 2, 2024, 8:00:23 AMApr 2
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Hi, This may or may not help, I had a similar issue before and it was something with my wiring causing a short and resetting the controller, this is why the USB hangs and needed restart, I cannot for the life of me remember what it was, could have been something with an external long reset wire, not sure.

 

If it goes wrong when you try to jog a particular axis then perhaps the issue is with the driver or wiring.

 

I could be completely wrong, but this was my issue, I believe I was using TinyG controller at the time.

 

 

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Mike Menci
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2024 12:48 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Re: Jerk settings - Axis Configuration - latest OpenPnP installed

 

I take a lunch brake -
my latest log enclosed - all works just rotation remains problem and restart is needed. 

Log 13.40h 

On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 13:21:33 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:

Repeated test again re-start needed ??? 
trace trace -13.19h  

On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 13:14:35 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:

Yes I do loose my USB port to start the PnP on the beginning but after that when I home the machine the Port stays working... 

I disconnected my 4 rotation steppers from smoothie and I tried all motions again and homing works, x, y, z1 & z2 works but again as soon as I try to rotate (Jog) one of not wired rotation steppers connection fails and I need to restart the OpenPnP   -- why is this happening ? 

See trace trace enclosed ( at 13h today local time).   

 

On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 10:25:39 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:

I needed to drasticly  higher all values in Kinematic settings for X and Y servos to work 

On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 10:18:09 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:

My self as well I wonder why I needed to set "Jerk" for my Servo drives to higher values ..... 

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Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 10:04:19 AMApr 2
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Hello Derk 

Thanks for your tips - I was thinking the same way, this is why I disconnected my rotational steppers and repeated basic motion tests ----- but I see  the same problem. 

I have possibility to disconnect rotational steppers wires at the head location (on top of X axis = I did this first)   and at Smoothiboard (I will test this as well later today). 

But I still wonder why I had to increase all the values  = Feed Rate, Acceleration and Jerk for two of my servos and 6 steppers in Kinematic settings after updating Open PnP to latest version.   I had January or Feb. 2024 version installed earlier when my PnP was working .....


mark maker

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Apr 2, 2024, 10:19:01 AMApr 2
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> But I still wonder why I had to increase all the values  = Feed Rate, Acceleration and Jerk for two of my servos and 6 steppers in Kinematic settings after updating Open PnP to latest version.  

Are you sure? Have you checked the Speed % slider?

The only thing remotely related would be this:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/pull/1600

But I do not see how this could matter. And the new option is OFF by default.

_Mark

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 12:47:53 PMApr 2
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Hello Mark, 
Yes I am sure - my Jog Slider is /was always at abt 90% 
Jog View.png

Now, I disconnected the rotation stepper cables from Smoothieboard and I am facing the same problem - no rotation of bouth nozzle axes and restart OpenPnP is needed again for any further movement of head in x or y or z axes...  

Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 1:00:53 PMApr 2
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Mark - see this video - I change Jerk setting only for X axe - see the speed change!!   ( at my start yesterday on servos I had jerk at value "0" ) 
https://youtu.be/rxZJz09wLY4

Jan

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Apr 2, 2024, 5:44:57 PMApr 2
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On 02.04.2024 16:18, 'mark maker' via OpenPnP wrote:
> /> But I still wonder why I had to increase all the values  = Feed Rate,
> Acceleration and Jerk for two of my servos and 6 steppers in Kinematic
> settings after updating Open PnP to latest version.
> /
>
> Are you sure? Have you checked the *Speed %* slider?
>
> The only thing remotely related would be this:
>
> https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/pull/1600
>
> But I do not see how this could matter. And the new option is OFF by
> default.
>
I just verified using the simulator, that there is some dependency on
jerk, even if Smoothie (I'm concluding that from your first post, Mike)
has no concept of jerk. Depending on the Motion Controller Type, the
accelerations send to the controller (M204) and feed-rate (F) change.
Using ModeratedConstantAcceleration the acceleration is lower even with
large jerk values compared to jerk == 0. The feed-rate is also lower
when jerk is not 0. With jerk == 0, acceleration and feed-rate are as
configured when jogging 100mm. For ConstantAcceleration jerk does not
influence the acceleration or feed-rate.
According to your log trace-trace13:01h 1.txt OpenPnP sends
accelerations in the order of the kinematic settings picture you posted.
There it says that your acceleration is 3000mm/s^2 and in the logs I
find "M204 S6656" and "M204 S2219" but also "M204 S156". The first value
is higher then configured and the last very low (which might be ok for a
very short move).
Unfortunately I can't see that PR #1600 might explain any of your
observations and I also don't see why your machine runs slower then
expected. According to your logs and picture, the controller is feed
with the parameters your configured.
To my limited understanding your acceleration seems to be low compared
to your feed-rate. I'm using a feed-rate of 1800mm/s and an acceleration
of 18000mm/s^2 with stepper motors and the values are limited by the
table the machine is mounted on.

Jan

> On 02.04.2024 16:04, Mike Menci wrote:
>>
>> Hello Derk
>>
>> Thanks for your tips - I was thinking the same way, this is why I
>> disconnected my rotational steppers and repeated basic motion tests
>> ----- but I see  the same problem.
>>
>> I have possibility to disconnect rotational steppers wires at the head
>> location (on top of X axis = I did this first)   and at Smoothiboard
>> (I will test this as well later today).
>>
>> But I still wonder why I had to increase all the values  = Feed Rate,
>> Acceleration and Jerk for two of my servos and 6 steppers in Kinematic
>> settings after updating Open PnP to latest version.   I had January or
>> Feb. 2024 version installed earlier when my PnP was working .....
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 14:00:23 UTC+2 Derk wrote:
>>
>> Hi, This may or may not help, I had a similar issue before and it
>> was something with my wiring causing a short and resetting the
>> controller, this is why the USB hangs and needed restart, I cannot
>> for the life of me remember what it was, could have been something
>> with an external long reset wire, not sure.
>>
>> If it goes wrong when you try to jog a particular axis then
>> perhaps the issue is with the driver or wiring.
>>
>> I could be completely wrong, but this was my issue, I believe I
>> was using TinyG controller at the time.
>>
>> *From:*ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> *On
>> Behalf Of *Mike Menci
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 2, 2024 12:48 PM
>> *To:* OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [OpenPnP] Re: Jerk settings - Axis Configuration -
>> latest OpenPnP installed
>>
>> I take a lunch brake -
>> my latest log enclosed - all works just rotation remains problem
>> and restart is needed.
>>
>> Log 13.40h
>>
>> On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 13:21:33 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:
>>
>> Repeated test again re-start needed ???
>> trace trace -13.19h
>>
>> On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 13:14:35 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:
>>
>> Yes I do loose my USB port to start the PnP on the
>> beginning but after that when I home the machine the Port
>> stays working...
>>
>> I disconnected my 4 rotation steppers from smoothie and I
>> tried all motions again and homing works, x, y, z1 & z2
>> works but again as soon as I try to rotate (Jog) one of
>> not wired rotation steppers connection fails and I need to
>> restart the OpenPnP   -- why is this happening ?
>>
>> See trace trace enclosed ( at 13h today local time).
>>
>> On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 10:25:39 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:
>>
>> I needed to drasticly higher all values in Kinematic
>> settings for X and Y servos to work
>>
>> On Tuesday 2 April 2024 at 10:18:09 UTC+2 Mike Menci
>> wrote:
>>
>> My self as well I wonder why I needed to set
>> "Jerk" for my Servo drives to higher values .....
>>
>> --
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "OpenPnP" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>
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Mike Menci

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Apr 2, 2024, 6:07:13 PMApr 2
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Jan thanks for your time, It’s midnight here, I will look at this more closely tomorrow
Mike
Sent from my iPhone

> On 2 Apr 2024, at 23.44, 'Jan' via OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/341ab206-0a78-41d3-a806-6372fc5d717a%40googlemail.com.

Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 2:31:55 AMApr 3
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Jan 
This morning I started the machine and added task -to callibrate Nozzle 
Mochine home - normal and I jog it a bit and than I presssed calibrate nozzle N1 -   with very high speed it moved to Up-camera and stopped there - kicked out controlls - restart needed.... (I know this is due to nozzle rotation again the problem remains ) BUT:
- Why such a crazy speed - where is it comming from ? which settings ?
Nozzle Calibration.png

trace trace enclosed
Mike
Trace-Trace_8_22.txt

Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 2:39:43 AMApr 3
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Repeated the test with Speed slider at min.: 
Speed down.png
Stll very high speed to up camera and kicking out - restart needed. 

I enclose herewith my machine file for your review please. 
Thanks 
Mike

machine.xml

Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 2:58:05 AMApr 3
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And herewith my 2023 Dec machine file compared with today's machine file ; 

I noted this differences: 


machine_11_12_23.xml
machine_11_12_23 and 2_4_24.xml - Notepad++compare4.png
New -send on change - why.png
machine_11_12_23 and 2_4_24.xml - Notepad++compare2.png
machine_2_4_24.xml
machine_11_12_23 and 2_4_24.xml - Notepad++compare3.png
machine_11_12_23 and 2_4_24.xml - Notepad++compare1.png

mark maker

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Apr 3, 2024, 3:08:19 AMApr 3
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What Jan explained is true. ModeratedConstantAcceleration takes the Jerk settings into consideration. From the Wiki:

  • ModeratedConstantAcceleration:

    Apply motion planning assuming a controller with constant acceleration motion control but moderate the acceleration and velocity to resemble those of 3rd order control, resulting in a move that takes the same amount of time and has similar average acceleration.

    This will reduce vibrations to a degree.

    Why? The moderation means that short moves accelerate more gently, as the acceleration is quickly followed by deceleration, which seems to agitate the machine more. Long moves are allowed to accelerate and decelerate much harder, but as they do so longer, this seems to induce less vibrations. If you think of the acceleration/deceleration ramp as a "half wave", the long move has a longer wave-length i.e. lower frequency and therefore seems to resonate less with the machine frame. Well, it helps on my machine.

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type

So this explains the very low acceleration. Jerk limits are typically at multiple ten thousand mm/s-3, setting them as low as you have in the video is clearly not a good setting.

But this has not changed for years now. So it does not explain why the behavior would have changed with the OpenPnP update. Also Jan said the log shows correct feed-rates being sent.

Actual problem: your machine seems to generate ground bounce when moving fast, which is not surprising at all once you know what happens. See points 5-7 here:
https://makr.zone/grounding-the-machine/283/

The only reliable, professional solution is to use a USB isolator. Don't find excuses. Buy one! 😉

https://www.adafruit.com/product/2107

If you use a laptop to run OpenPnP you can try run it from batteries, as a temporary measure. But this only works as long as you do not have any other devices connected that themselves are grounded, e.g. computer monitor, sound, other USB devices or hubs. Note: USB cameras are usually not grounded, i.e. their PCB screw holes and outer copper are not connected to their circuit ground (at least that's true for ELP and other models I have).

_Mark

Jan

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Apr 3, 2024, 4:02:02 AMApr 3
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Hi Mark!

On 03.04.2024 09:08, 'mark maker' via OpenPnP wrote:
[...]
> *ModeratedConstantAcceleration:*
>
[...]
> velocity to resemble those of 3rd order control, resulting in a move
> that takes the same amount of time and has similar average acceleration.
>
Just for the speed junkies among use: with jerk == 0 or jerk >~
feed-rate * acceleration movements take the same time as with
ConstantAcceleration. In other words 0 < jerk < feed-rate * acceleration
makes the machine slower (if configured for
ModeratedConstantAcceleration). ;-)

Jan

mark maker

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Apr 3, 2024, 4:17:24 AMApr 3
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Yes. Per axis. Those that have rock solid machines (no vibrations), can also just use ConstantAcceleration which is ignoring  Jerk limits altogether. 😉

CAUTION: This does not apply to TinyG users, where Jerk is always relevant, those must use SimpleSCurve

Read the Wiki:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/GcodeAsyncDriver#motion-control-type

_Mark

Jan

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Apr 3, 2024, 4:24:03 AMApr 3
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Hi Mike!
Your log looks a little strange to me: it shows you jogging 100mm steps
at around 8:21:36. Then at 08:22:19.990 you seemed to start the nozzle
tip calibration (the NozzleCalibration.Starting script is executed). At
08:22:19.999 the nozzle is send to the cameras location (at -180°). At
08:22:20.001 your controller reports, that all motion has finished.
That's ~2ms for about 200mm (in X). The motion itself is configured for
an acceleration of 3016mm/s and a feed-rate of F37988 (I suppose its
mm/min). Neglecting the feed-rate limit the time is t = 2 sqrt(distance
/ acceleration) = ~515ms. So I'm either referring to the wrong M400 for
that movement or your controller is not respecting the acceleration
limit and uses an insane 1e8mm/s^2.
I'd suggest you check the cabling of the rotation motors. In case there
is an error that resets your controller when trying to rotate and in
case your x/y drivers continue to drive the motors for some time after
the controller has died making any assumption on the
acceleration/feed-rate from the data they already received, then that
might explain your observations.

Jan

On 03.04.2024 08:31, Mike Menci wrote:
> Jan
> This morning I started the machine and added task -to callibrate Nozzle
> Mochine home - normal and I jog it a bit and than I presssed calibrate
> nozzle N1 -   with very high speed it moved to Up-camera and stopped
> there - kicked out controlls - restart needed.... (I know this is due to
> nozzle rotation again the problem remains ) BUT:
> - Why such a crazy speed - where is it comming from ? which settings ?
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/cb317d4f-1dfb-4039-a0a5-7e0ac498a5ccn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/cb317d4f-1dfb-4039-a0a5-7e0ac498a5ccn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/cb317d4f-1dfb-4039-a0a5-7e0ac498a5ccn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/cb317d4f-1dfb-4039-a0a5-7e0ac498a5ccn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> >>>
> >>> --
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Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 6:48:31 AMApr 3
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Hi Mark , 
I use USB isolator : 
and my Computer is not notebook... 

I will study and do further tests... 
Miike
Usb isolator.png
MyCompHP_AllinOne 24 DP1.png

Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 7:09:21 AMApr 3
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Jan, 

You need to note that I run servos - with Yaskawa controller and I use from Smoothie only Step GND and Dir signal... for X and Y drives - This has influence in actual timing of moves in x and y. 

"  So I'm either referring to the wrong M400 for
that movement or your controller is not respecting the acceleration
limit and uses an insane 1e8mm/s^2."

Note that  there is auto and fine tuning of Axis done by Yaskawa software SigmaWin+ - see pdf enclosed...  and a video here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaYTXCEqjp8

Based on each axe (x and y separatly) weight and accelerations Yaskawa is using balanced motions in both axis... 

But above is not my problem now and works as expected. 

The problem remains with rotational  4 nozzles - as soon as I press on Jog rotation or calibrate nozzles move STOPS when rotations would need to happen and machine called for restart.  Yesterday I did a test with my cables disconnected from smoothie and steppers and the error remains unchanged - re start is needed.

I will do further tests this evening

SigmaWin+ Ver. 7.43 Usage Notes .pdf

Jan

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Apr 3, 2024, 8:24:32 AMApr 3
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Hi Mike!

On 03.04.2024 13:09, Mike Menci wrote:
> Jan,
>
> You need to note that I run_servos - with Yaskawa controller_ and I use
> from Smoothie only Step GND and Dir signal... for X and Y drives - This
> has influence in actual timing of moves in x and y.
>
I think I understand: with step and dir generated by Smoothie, Smoohtie
is responsible for the timing and synchronization of all axis. (This is
the same for stepper motor driver. They also get step and dir signals.)
Hence movements shall reflect the configured feed-rate and acceleration
limits and be executed in the time it takes.

[...]
> The problem remains with rotational 4 nozzles - as soon as I press on
> Jog rotation or calibrate nozzles move_STOPS when rotations would need
> to happen and machine called for restar_t.  Yesterday I did a test with
> my cables disconnected from smoothie and steppers and the error remains
> unchanged - re start is needed.
>
I'm sorry, I'm lost.
According to the machine.xmls your attached earlier, your backlash
settings have changed. Your feed-rate and jerk settings are much higher
now. Your cameras pixel/mm has also changed as well as some parameters
of your camera. Your homing fiducial has changed by 1mm in x and y. Your
HOMVE_TO_COMMAND has changed. Maybe you wont to review that because it
only contains 6 axis. With your four-nozzle machine I would expect that
to need more. You have some M400 in your G-Code commands. I'd consider
removing them in favor for appropriate coordination settings.
Please check the Motion Control Type of your "Smoothie" controller: it
has changed from ModeratedConstantAcceleration" to "SimpleSCurve". IIRC
this is to advanced for Smoothie and its serial interface.

Jan
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Mike Menci

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Apr 3, 2024, 10:24:14 AMApr 3
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Jan, 
Thanks for supporting my Issue with my PnP. 
I loaded old Jan2024 machine and did some "Jurk" value up  to 10000 for x and y only 
Gcode home 400 went out... 

What I mean with:  
"The problem remains with rotational 4 nozzles - as soon as I press on any 
> Jog rotation or calibrate nozzles machine_STOPS  - It STOPS when rotations would need
> to happen and machine is needed to  restart. 
Yesterday I did a test with
> my cables disconnected from smoothie and steppers and the error remains
> unchanged - re start is needed. 

You can see this at the end of video:
and I will upload the video - link here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z95UemNcdKg
herewith Trace Trace for Video you can compare it..  please - 
and let me know what You noticed ?? 
I hope this is clerer now ? 
GcodeSmoothie.png
GcodeDriver.png
I and S text.png
Gcode Home Command.png
AsPerVideoTrace.txt