CSM46 old machine for selling

[Marek T.]

Hi Everyone,

I've got two old Philips pnp machines for selling.

CSM46. This is rebranded Yamaha, practically Japanese machines.

Together with some number of feeders.

They are both in working condition, I just don't need them since bought Siplace machines.

Place of store: Warsaw, Poland. Price negotiable :-).

These machines can handle parts from 0603, positioning with jaws. Originally the feeders have only 8mm advancement, so, despite the feeder accuracy - they don't match to 0402 having 2mm advancement usually. It can be modified with one wheel replacement  and I have several feeders modified. It works, but not like dreaming.

XY motions are performed with leadscrews.

Original heads are pneumatical (three heads).

Generally, the best destination for such machines is to retrofit them to Openpnp (as I did with a third machine). It is a perfectly stable and heavy base with good linear guides, industrial Japanese quality not Chinese. To retrofit it you need:

- replace original DC drivers with some new one (it's not easy job to tune it properly) or replace DCservomotors with newer ones (preferably ACservomotors or some steppers).

- replace the heads with Peter's heads + some pins for feeders advancing (or replace the feeders with pneumo Yamaha or electric Siplace feeders, or some DIY feeders).

The size of the machine is:

Height 120cm,  and on the floor 100x125cm.

Photo attached.

Maybe someone has enough space and is interested?

[Dave B.]

Do you have any more details on the conversion?  I've got a CSM84 that still runs fine on the original control system but I plan on converting when something fails that isn't easily replaced.

-Dave

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[Marek T.]

Hi Dave,

I have removed original drivers for obvious reason (nust be obvious for you if you have seen how it looks like). And used  DG4S-16035 sheet-driver instead of it. Very hard to tune it properly, very poor docu with misleading functions (some are not working at al), very limited number of settings (comparing to professional drivers) and hanging up from time to time. But it works.

It's driven with original Smoothieboard.

I have removed positioning jaws and replaced the nozzles' holders with Juki system - to be able to use the Chinese nozzles clones.

Pneumatic Z and Z position checking is still in use, controlled with some my RS232 module (it can be done with Smoothieboard but with some inconveniences).

Two cameras Bottom (5Mpx set into 3Mpx mode) + Top (1Mpx). Both ELP.

One linear scale along X axis added to eliminate some lead screw nonlinearity (weared in the center). Chinese, optical, connected to the DG4S instead of rotary rotary encoder mounted on the motor axis.

Feeders: electric Siplace S-feeders.

Computer: AMD A8-7650K, 3.30GHz, 8GB of RAM, SSD, Linux Debian 64.

Prolly that's all - ask if you need some more details. Here or on the Discord.

brgds

M/

[Dave B.]

Thank you very much, Marek!

-D

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[rostisl...@gmail.com]

Hello Marek,

Would be please possible to little bit explain what is Your experience with DG4S-16035?

- are they reliable?

- what main issues you got with them?

- what does mean misleading function?

- are manufacturer good in case of support?

- if You build servo driven PnP do You choose them again? or something else?

Many thanks, I am looking for good servo drivers, so I will be grateful for any advice.

RH.

Dne úterý 14. září 2021 v 16:27:55 UTC+2 uživatel Marek T. napsal:

[Marek T.]

Hi,

They're shity but I haven't found anything better for the required voltage 150VDC. And they are relatively cheap.

FYI: SanyoDenki driver were offered to me for €1500.

They're hard to tune. Maybe it's problem of experience with the servidrivers tuning. But after weeks of experiments were have never reached the motions so smooth like with original drivers. It's easy to set them and have perfect hig speed and accuracy, but when you test it at small jogs - you loose a lot if steps. When you tune them to have it being good at small steps then long motions are drama etc etc.

I've seen some Serbian drivers having auto-tune mode friendly to use at the beginning at least. The have looked promisely but I haven't bought them finally.

If you will accept much more noise from motors and instability of positions (little trembling which you can't see but hear) - you can work with them as I do. But it's very very far from original solution. Also speed and "culture" of moving.

They hangs sometimes or loose settings sometimes.

Misleading are some settings in the interface that are not clearily described what are they for, or work other than general servodrivers' docus are used to say. Also some parameters are visible, described but do nothing. After weeks I've got info from distributor "ach, sorry, factory has forgotten to remove it. It worked in older versions only but not now".

Manufacturer is useless. When I've contacted to them, I was given some answers but useless. And stopped to get response when digged deeper. My impresdion is that they seems to be maybe good electronic engineers but with poor servomotors or steppers practical experience. I've thought with very low motions and dynamics and got zero advise why it's so shity. Much later I've found that voltage for motors powering must be much higher than nominal motors voltage parameter is, to get reliable speed. Manufacturer didn't know about it, but SanyoDenki engineer does, and some steppers' engineer either. So if motors are 75VDC, you must power them with 150VDC and control the current only. And only then you'll get it working as it should be.

Smoothieboard is too slow for these drivers. It has only 100kHz STEP output and it's too low to use full motors encoders resolution and full speed of motors. You must choose: max speed and lower resolution (0.02) or half speed and full resolution 0.01. Despite 0.02 is enough in practice. But to get full parameters you need 200kHz motion controller, so not the Smoothie (and no matter which version) but Marlin having other disadvantages. Compromises, compromises...

Today, maybe I'd use some AC servomotors and drivers. But who knows what the issues then with Chinese drivers.

You can talk to Jaroslaw Karwik user about it. He's experienced with servomotors problems and designing some advanced motion controller for it and Openpnp machines.  But be prepared on higher costs as Jarek is using advanced and not cheap solutions rather. But I think it's worth to observe his progresses (not to big lastly or not reported only). 

@Jarek, how does it go? I'm sure you read it :-).

brgds

M/

[Jarosław Karwik]

Hi,

I got Leadshine BLDC for my machine, but sadly still have not time to test it ( I got one set for free from my friend - that is why I selected them). 

Professionally I have been using Delta servo drives:

https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/index

The work flawlessly, we also have good local support for them.

They are just more expensive, but it is really nice to have 220V supply directly.

[MarekN]

Hello everyone

I'm interested in this machine.

Please PM me.

Best Regards

Marek

[Pete Rondeau]

If you don't find a purchaser, I would be interested in parts.  I have a CSM46 in my shop that is using the stock controller and I use and am trying to keep it running.

Best regards,

Pete

[Jarosław Karwik]

If you need something - send me PM. I have a contact to a guy who collects such machines and has some parts ( possibly for sale).

For 1-2kEuro I might be able to get complete machine in working order ( again - PM if you are interested, I can contact this guy)

[Marek T.]

Hi MarekN

Sorry, I visit this place not so much often. PM will send in minutes today.

Are you from PL (looking on name) ?

[Marek T.]

Hi Peter,

We will be in touch.

wtorek, 5 października 2021 o 19:24:39 UTC+2 in...@hauntbots.com napisał(a):

[Marek T.]

Hi Jarek,

Pls send me a contact to this guy, maybe I can sell him something.

You know my email ;)