OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

[Chuck Hackett]

I have been running a Quad IVc that I purchased 4-5 years ago for the scrap price and cost of hauling it from Minneapolis to Florida.  It is hard to deal with because it only knows floppies and runs on Windows 95.  Another Windows 98 PC is used to setup jobs.  

Today I tried to get it up and running and I ran into a whole series of issues too long to explain.  The hardware, motor drivers, etc. seem to be fine.  The issue is in the control hardware.

There is a commercial conversion of this machine to Windows 11 but I think it runs about $11,000 and my situation can't afford anything near that.

Has anyone tried adapting OpenPnP to a Quad IVc machine?

Failing this, I'll probably take a look at the Open Source LumenPnP machine.

Mine is prototyping and low volume production .... but I do have a customer install late this year that will need a significant number of boards.

BTW: I design and sell automatic signal systems for ride on railroads (mostly 7.5" gauge)

MiniRail Solutions

Thanks in advance for your help ...

Chuck Hackett

[bert shivaan]

If you are able to use Lumen you should be able to use oopenPNP. It is my understanding Lumen is a fork of openPNP. I could be wrong there.

Do you have schematics for the machine?

Do you have any drive info?

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[cdh...@gmail.com]

The Lumen is open source and (as I understand it) uses OpenPnP.  The web site is quoting 30-day delivery timeframe.  Before I go to the Lumen I’d like to see if I can see a path to converting the Quad IVc.  I have two of them (they used to be coupled together).  The second was for spare parts.  If I can get my primary converted to OpenPnP I might also do a conversion on the other one and keep it or sell it. 

 

Yes, I have schematics which includes the motor drive units.

 

The Quad was acting up yesterday with various issues, several of which went away by re-seating the circuit boards in the Quad.  Currently it gets a “z limit” error when it tries to pickup a part from the feeder.  I suspect it is not tracking the position correctly and is commanding it to travel too far.  The machine does ‘home’ correctly as far as I can tell.  I am hampered because I do not have any troubleshooting information, only schematics from which a lot can be discerned but not internal logic flows, etc.

 

In converting to OpenPnP, my plan would be to retain the motor drivers but remove everything else (the Windows 95 PC and machine logic cards).  From the schematics I can see where the step/direction signals are as well as home, etc. 

 

This would eliminate all the old PC logic and old control hardware so that I would have documentation and knowledge of the new control logic.  If I had to, I could replace the motor drivers with more modern ones, but I figure that can be done any time.

 

A big question would be if I can get the current cameras to work with OpenPnP or if I would/should replace them with mor modern cameras.

 

Regards,

 

Chuck Hackett

UP Northern 844, Mitch-Cal Shay #2

Owner MiniRail Solutions, LLC (http://MiniRailSolutions.com)

“By the work, one knows the workman”

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CA%2BKNHNxFuE%3DBombwpOfNR-fT8%3DxXXsrT%2BwDpKK%3DsHW7dBYD0FQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[bert shivaan]

If drives are simple step/dir, you can throw a Duet/smoothie on there and not look back. They should have plenty of I/O. Even if not you can add controllers for that. Same with the feeders, how will you control them?

Likely you will need to replace the cameras. To my knowledge OpenPNP will only work with USB style cameras. But don't quote me on that. There is some work going on with RPi and maybe even ESP32.

I only mentioned Lumen because you did. IMHO it does not bring value to your project unless you abandoned your current machine(s)

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/013e01dbaa29%2468054b00%24380fe100%24%40gmail.com.

[cdh...@gmail.com]

I’ll take a look at Duet (looks like really targeted to 3D printers although a lot of similarity**) and Smoothie.

 

The feeders are self-driven.  They sense the part being picked and advance themselves.  I have like 90 of the things which is why I’d like to get the Quad working but I think I can also adapt them to the Lumen if I have to go that route.

 

My issue is that I am under a time crunch.  Not only do I have customers waiting for stuff, I also have surgery scheduled for the 23^rd which will put a dent in things.

 

One thought was to purchase a Lumen to get be through until the Quads were converted.  This also allows me to gain familiarity with OpenPnP.  While using that I can convert the Quad(s) and then sell the Lumen.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CA%2BKNHNwhEJ55jd42hBKRjeFZ8wUpEYq_q-reD1GHj4i75c3KXQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Javier Hernández]

Hello Chuck,

Please, share info about your machine. Motors, PCB controller, Cameras. Kinematics is usual cartesian XYZ?

Sorry my english.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/013e01dbaa29%2468054b00%24380fe100%24%40gmail.com.

[Javier Hernández]

I am working on an interesting machine for you. It offers a little more CPH than the current ones. But you need a few months to build it. If you don't have time to mess around, I don't think it will be good for you now.

Your machine is this? Manufactured in Argentina?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/014701dbaa2c%2407f066c0%2417d13440%24%40gmail.com.

[cdh...@gmail.com]

While googling/clicking on stuff for Smoothie Chrome/Edge rejects it as blocked/not-secure.

 

Do you have a link for HW/SW info on it?

 

Chuck

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CA%2BKNHNwhEJ55jd42hBKRjeFZ8wUpEYq_q-reD1GHj4i75c3KXQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Maybe He can move the tape with a similar system to the Nedoden YY1, So He can save time in the transtition to OpenPnP.

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Yes Chuck, but this works, and appear Argentina website.

https://rotofrance.com.ar/

[cdh...@gmail.com]

Since the Quad feeders are self-contained and sense the pickup rod picking the part (photo detector) they should work fine with OpenPnP as far as I know.

 

Chuck

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/12ff58b2-d664-4ae0-bcc4-7c9ffa9e5f42n%40googlegroups.com.

[cdh...@gmail.com]

My Malwarebytes Browser Guard blocks that site due to phishing …

 

Chuck

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/30c9fd81-a8f8-4aed-a81e-1534410cc1acn%40googlegroups.com.

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Sure. Do you have seen Octopus + Raspberry Pi + Klipper option? Maybe works with your machine and OpenPnP.

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

I have not try it, but exist KliPiNP

https://github.com/amken3d/KliPiNP

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Not, this is a not phishing. It's the website of Rotofrance, a Argentine company that use a Quead IVc Mk2 and Neoden K1830 in your workshop. They make voltage regulators for windmills.  Now I understand.

https://rotofrance.com.ar/

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

I can not found the Quad Systems website, is very hard. 

Only I have found info about Quad machines in GoPPM website

https://www.goppm.com/quad-4c-pick-place.php

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Please, look the parts  https://www.goppm.com/quad-c-parts.php

You shouldn't have much problem transitioning to OpenPnP with that machine.

[cdh...@gmail.com]

I don’t think Quad Systems Corp (PnP machines) exists any more but there are lota of them around:

https://www.google.com/search?q=quad+systems+corporation+pick+and+place+machines&num=10&sca_esv=2530a8e15266578f&rlz=1C1UEAD_enUS1109US1109&sxsrf=AHTn8zqnqdofHxL2SdZZ6HeCD7a88RPuaA%3A1744302446769&ei=bvH3Z7HaLqT4wbkP3c7wsAc&ved=0ahUKEwixyeH98M2MAxUkfDABHV0nHHYQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=quad+systems+corporation+pick+and+place+machines&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiMHF1YWQgc3lzdGVtcyBjb3Jwb3JhdGlvbiBwaWNrIGFuZCBwbGFjZSBtYWNoaW5lczIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRirAkjaVVCZDViaPHABeACQAQCYAW2gAaERqgEEMjQuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCGaACxBHCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgINEAAYsAMY1gQYRxjJA8ICDhAAGIAEGLADGJIDGIoFwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAggQABiABBiiBJgDAIgGAZAGCZIHBDIyLjOgB6-FAbIHBDIxLjO4B8AR&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

Chuck

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of javier.hern...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2025 12:10 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

 

I can not found the Quad Systems website, is very hard. 

 

Only I have found info about Quad machines in GoPPM website

https://www.goppm.com/quad-4c-pick-place.php

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/11aa0623-b30d-41e9-9269-cadc24a71132n%40googlegroups.com.

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Ok.

Here is possible to found someones images of Quad IVc
https://www.bluewireproto.com/quad.html

[javier.hern...@gmail.com]

Your machine look pretty cool, your only need to upgrade someones things. 

[cdh...@gmail.com]

Pic of my machine attached …

 

Windows 95 PC at bottom left.  Through the plexi you cab see the board transport rails and behind it the up-facing camera and to the right of it a tray used for oversize parts.

 

Since I don’t do enough production to warrant full spools and I do a lot of reconfiguring for different boards I made a 3D printed circular tape holder that is attached directly to the feeder.  Originally, the spool arm was separate which made it a pain, now feeder and spool swap at once.

 

Here is a video of the machine running: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UKbDG5SLS4

 

Chuck

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of javier.hern...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2025 12:39 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

 

Your machine look pretty cool, your only need to upgrade someones things. 

[cdh...@gmail.com]

In my process of investigating the conversion of a Quad IVc to OpenPnP I am looking for an online guide/reference/notes on setting up the hardware for OpenPnP (I think I found the guide for software), recommendations?

 

I gather that I need a motion controller and (in my case) I will either be keeping the step/direction motor drivers currently in the machine or replace them with more modern units since, if these go bad, there is limited availability of replacements.  I would want a motion controller that had all the I/O I would probably need but maybe not using it all in the beginning.  Recommendations for a motion controller? (Bert recommended Dual and Smoothie in an earlier post).

 

Is it practical to operate with no camera initially?  I assume I would be relying on the consistency of orientation in the tape, but parts will either orient themselves or I can nudge them post-pnp before reflow.

 

In a bare-bones configuration I assume I’ll need:

• 4-axis drive (x, y, z-rod, theta)
• Home/limit switches
• Vacuum sensor
• Other?

 

Later I would add cameras, etc.

[vespaman]

Well, you also need ways to control your vacuum, up light, down light, blower pump, (if you intend to have this).

Is it only one nozzle on your machine? Does it swap, if it does, maybe also make sure you have interface for this.

The feeders where self contained, no comms or anything to control?

I would definitely put cameras from start, at least the down facing, limit switches will only get you so far. And I guess most of us has both cameras, so it might be good to be where the crowd is.

But I read somewhere that you have jobs waiting... I'd consider if this is really the time to convert your machine if this is the case. Things tends to take longer than one thinks... At least here.

 -  Micael

[cdh...@gmail.com]

(my comments in blue below)

 

Regards,

 

Chuck Hackett

UP Northern 844, Mitch-Cal Shay #2

Owner MiniRail Solutions, LLC (http://MiniRailSolutions.com)

“By the work, one knows the workman”

 

 

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of vespaman

Sent: Friday, April 11, 2025 12:15 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

Well, you also need ways to control your vacuum, up light, down light,

Got it …

 

blower pump, (if you intend to have this).

Blower?  On a PnP?  Blower for what?

 

Is it only one nozzle on your machine? Does it swap, if it does, maybe also make sure you have interface for this.

Yes, one ‘nozzle’ (Z-rod)

 

The feeders where self contained, no comms or anything to control?

No comms required, only power.  Tape advances after z-rod lifts as sensed by photo diode in the feeder.

 

I would definitely put cameras from start, at least the down facing, limit switches will only get you so far. And I guess most of us has both cameras, so it might be good to be where the crowd is.

Ah, forgot the down camera for alignment, yes, need that, and while I’m at it the second camera is easy.

 

But I read somewhere that you have jobs waiting... I'd consider if this is really the time to convert your machine if this is the case. Things tends to take longer than one thinks... At least here.

Not that I want to … something has gone haywire in the Quad’s controls so I can not produce boards at the moment.  I am going to research it some more to see if I can fix it (I have a full set of schematics).  If I can get it fixed, I can produce the boards but I will still be planning on doing the conversion, just at a more convenient time.

 

Chuck

 

 -  Micael

 

fredag 11 april 2025 kl. 15:59:23 UTC+2 skrev Chuck Hackett:

In my process of investigating the conversion of a Quad IVc to OpenPnP I am looking for an online guide/reference/notes on setting up the hardware for OpenPnP (I think I found the guide for software), recommendations?

 

I gather that I need a motion controller and (in my case) I will either be keeping the step/direction motor drivers currently in the machine or replace them with more modern units since, if these go bad, there is limited availability of replacements.  I would want a motion controller that had all the I/O I would probably need but maybe not using it all in the beginning.  Recommendations for a motion controller? (Bert recommended Dual and Smoothie in an earlier post).

 

Is it practical to operate with no camera initially?  I assume I would be relying on the consistency of orientation in the tape, but parts will either orient themselves or I can nudge them post-pnp before reflow.

 

In a bare-bones configuration I assume I’ll need:

• 4-axis drive (x, y, z-rod, theta)
• Home/limit switches
• Vacuum sensor
• Other?

 

Later I would add cameras, etc.

 

Regards,

 

Chuck Hackett

UP Northern 844, Mitch-Cal Shay #2

Owner MiniRail Solutions, LLC (http://MiniRailSolutions.com)

“By the work, one knows the workman”

 

 

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[vespaman]

 

blower pump, (if you intend to have this).

Blower?  On a PnP?  Blower for what?

Well, if you don't already have it, you can live without it. It is a way to reduce the vacuum in the tubes quicker, so the component is faster off the tip.

 

Is it only one nozzle on your machine? Does it swap, if it does, maybe also make sure you have interface for this.

Yes, one ‘nozzle’ (Z-rod)

And it does not swap tips, you do it manually?

 

I would definitely put cameras from start, at least the down facing, limit switches will only get you so far. And I guess most of us has both cameras, so it might be good to be where the crowd is.

Ah, forgot the down camera for alignment, yes, need that, and while I’m at it the second camera is easy.

Apart from the light, they only interface to he computer directly, so if you think you don't need one of them from start, you can always set them up when you realize they'll be nice to have :-)

Do you intend to use your existing vacuum sensor, if so, how can you interface to it?

Only one nozzle, self managing feeders. On paper this must probably be the simplest conversions! (But it will still take you time, to learn the new ropes) :-)

I think any controller board would do, but Duet boards are kind of popular, and might have a good match for your machine. Smoothie V1 boards are also common.

I suppose you have to decide the motor situation, check the current available Voltage for steppers and controller boards. What ever stepper motors and Voltage you decide on, will be a important factor for choosing controller board.

  - Micael

[cdh...@gmail.com]

Micael, Comments below

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of vespaman
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2025 2:29 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

blower pump, (if you intend to have this).

Blower?  On a PnP?  Blower for what?

Well, if you don't already have it, you can live without it. It is a way to reduce the vacuum in the tubes quicker, so the component is faster off the tip.

I now understand the ‘blower’ item.  The Quad hardware has the vacuum solenoid on the traveling head assembly right next to the z-rod so I think the part drop time is minimal but that is something to keep in mind for an upgrade.

Is it only one nozzle on your machine? Does it swap, if it does, maybe also make sure you have interface for this.

Yes, one ‘nozzle’ (Z-rod)

And it does not swap tips, you do it manually?

Sorry, I didn’t know what ‘swap’ you were referring to.  Yes, auto tip swap.  The quad uses a locking tip holder, similar in function to the holder discussed recently in the “Holder Juki Nozzle” emails.

 

….

 

Do you intend to use your existing vacuum sensor, if so, how can you interface to it?

This is on the traveling head right next to the z-rod.  Not sure yet what kind of signal it puts out.  If I have to I can work up a translation circuit.

 

….

I think any controller board would do, but Duet boards are kind of popular, and might have a good match for your machine. Smoothie V1 boards are also common.

Seriously looking at the Duet because it looks like it is well integrated with OpenPnP and a large community of users – the machine has a large work envelope, who knows, I might add a hot bed and nozzle later 😊

I suppose you have to decide the motor situation, check the current available Voltage for steppers and controller boards. What ever stepper motors and Voltage you decide on, will be a important factor for choosing controller board.

To save time I’m thinking of sticking with the motor drivers currently in the machine.  They are still working fine, are matched to the motors/machine, accept step/direction, and I can always replace them later.

 

Chuck

[vespaman]

Sounds like you are good to go! :-)

 - Micael

[cdh...@gmail.com]

Micael,

 

I’m going to hold you to that! 😊

 

Regards,

 

Chuck Hackett

UP Northern 844, Mitch-Cal Shay #2

Owner MiniRail Solutions, LLC (http://MiniRailSolutions.com)

“By the work, one knows the workman”

 

 

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com <ope...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of vespaman
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2025 12:59 PM
To: OpenPnP <ope...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] OpenPnP conversion of a Quad IVc P-n-P machine

 

Sounds like you are good to go! :-)

 

 - Micael

[cdh...@gmail.com]

So, I think I am going to go with:

 

• OpenPnP
• probably on Windows just because I’m more familiar with that but I could be convinced otherwise.  I have used Unix/Ubuntu in the (distant) past.
• Duet3 Motion Control
• What is the latest model/version? (to be sure I’m up to date and not purchasing something cheaper but non-current)
• Suggested place to purchase in the USA? (I don’t see it on Amazon)
• Extras to purchase with it?
• Expansion cards?
• Panel display?
• Cables?
• Other?
• I‘ll have to figure out the interface to the vacuum sensor, outputs seem straight-forward
• Motor Drivers
• I think I’ll stick with the motor drivers that are currently in the machine because –
• They work,
• I can always upgrade them later,
• I have two machines (8 cards) plus 4 spare cards.
• A friend who converted a Quad to a router/3D printer used KL-9082 (8A for Y) and lower current KL-8078 for X, Z, and Theta

 

I need recommendations for the up/down cameras and any required PC interface hardware, cable, etc.  (I think someone might have mentioned a camera in a previous post, I’ll have to go look)

[vespaman]

I think there are people running Windows. You can always switch later on.

Duet3 - I leave this to people already using it, I have only experience of Smoothie.
Motor drivers; that's what I would do, if they have are step/dir interface.

The one thing you must think of while doing your conversion, is to isolate the PC from the machine. So any interface between them should be isolated. If you are going to use ethernet, this is not going to be a problem, but if you are going to use USB etc, you will need to keep this in mind.

The cameras are normally USB, and isolated from the machine. Needs to be on separate root hub on your computer. I think there are some recommendations in the documentation, but most UVC cameras would work. You might want to use one that has a long enough cable for your cable chain, and a lens that matches your distance.

  - Micael

[dc42]

Regarding current Duet 3 boards, if you will be using external stepper motor drivers then you need the 6XD board. This provides 6 outputs for external drivers that accept typical 5V opto-isolated inputs. If you want a board with drivers then I suggest the 6HC which can drive stepper motors at up to 48V and up to 6.3A peak current. The 6HC does not have outputs for external stepper drivers.

Regarding expansion boards, how do you intend to drive the tool head motor(s)? If you intend to use external drivers for those too and the 6 outputs for external drivers on the 6XD are sufficient to drive all the motors, then you probably don't need any expansion boards. If you don't want to drive motors on the tool head using external drivers then I suggest one or more tool boards on the tool head. These would connect to the main board using just 4 wires for CAN and 24V power. The tool boards also have on-board accelerometers, which may be useful to characterise the vibrations of the tool head.

You can see the complete range of Duet 3 boards at https://docs.duet3d.com/en/Duet3D_hardware/Duet_3_family.

We have a number of resellers in the USA. The largest is Filastruder but there may be another closer to you. See https://www.duet3d.com/page/genuine-resellers for the complete list.

Best regards, David (Duet3D Ltd.)

[Jack Wilmott]

Any update on this project and the method used to complete it? Thinking about doing the same conversion.

Jack

[Jack Wilmott]

Any updates on this project? About to undertake the same task

On Monday, 14 April 2025 at 04:43:17 UTC-4 dc42 wrote: