Nozzle changer - 4 movements

[Dave Prosee]

-- As this is my first post on OpenPnP I would, first of all, like to say thanks to all that have already contributed and Jason in particular for the nice software. Without all this I would not have started building my own machine. --

I have chosen CP40 nozzle holder and tips and made a nozzle tip holder like the one Juha Kuusama is selling (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/openpnp/cp40%7Csort:relevance/openpnp/zS5LawLZuHY/-8ZvQScMGQAJ).

As there is a spring in the nozzle holder you have to push in beyond the point were you take the nozzle out of the holder.
In other words you have to go above the nozzle, push down, go up to the level were you finally can go horizontally out of the nozzle holder. And vice versa for unmounting.
This amounts to 4 movements.See also Juha's video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEn0w_LiWK8

I have seen another version af the tool changer but that solution also needs four movements. In that post (i can't seem to find it no) from a while ago Jason replied that you need 4 movements and that you could easiliy change this in machine.xml. As I don't have any XML schema info my tries were futile. Also I believe the XML has changed since that post.

In short:
- is there an option available now to implement 4 movements? And if so, were can I find the documentation to do this?
- if there is no option available I suppose Juha's and mine solution as well as the in the post that I can't find, can not be supported. What kind of nozzle changer would you advise then?

I am using the developer version build 240575.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to the mailing list!

Currently we only support three movements, but it sounds like you and others have the need for four. Adding a fourth movement is very easy, and I'd be happy to toss it in tomorrow. In the future maybe we need to consider an arbitrary number of moves, but for now this will be a very simple change.

Out of curiosity though, why do you need to push down and then come back up before moving horizontally? I don't see anything in the fixture that would restrict movement horizontally while the spring is compressed.

Jason

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[Cri S]

From video, 3 moves are enough. The initial and final move to Z 0 is implicit and you don't need specify that explitly.

[mojalovaa1]

No Cri.s , need 4 move , if you look beter you will see that need one for move little up when push holder to nozzle .

[Cri S]

Cp20/40 Nozzle work with 3 nozzle changer position resulting to 5 moves.
The changes I have made is activate vacuum and
remove bug of not do initial travel at safeZ height.
Vacuum is needed as custom grbl driver optimized moves to g0 instead of g1 in case no component is on nozzles with exception of the last 2mm
on lowering Z. The bug of safeZ travel was corrected to my knowledge.
As cp40 nozzles don't have collision problems as cp45 nozzles with cam Z axis, there don't need global nozzleChangerPos and traveling on begin and end to
NozzleEndPos with safeZ height in order to avoid hitting parked nozzleTips with mounted Nozzles
as it was required to do for you.

Sequence:

Go to NozzleStart pos at SafeZ height
Go to NozzleStart pos. This is pos over nozzle
with Nozzle Holder spring full compressed.
Go to NozzleMid. Pos. This is same pos as
NozzleStart but different Z height, nozzle holder spring not compressed.
Go to NozzleEnd position, this moves out the nozzle horizontally from nozzle holder.
Go to SafeZ height. This raise up nozzle.

Unloading a nozzle is just the same in reverse order.

[Dave Prosee]

Thanks Jason,

Regarding the reason: Cri S just mentioned the reason. Because of the spring in the holder and the resistance when pushing into the nozzle tip you are never sure how far the nozzle tip holder wil enter the nozzle tip. The only way to be sure is to fully insert up to the point were the spring is fully compressed and no ambiguity of the position of the tip vs holder remains. After that you can move up to the level were you can horizontally leave the tip holder.

Using the fully spring compressed point as mid point in a three position movement would result in unusable umounting route because the spring is then uncompressed and the nozzle tip flange is lower (in Z).
By the way: unmounting with four movements is not necessary but it does not hurt to compress the spring before extracting from the nozzle tip. So if you want to become super generic in your solution you could consider seperate paths for mounting and unmounting. But for me four points would be enough.

Additionally: as mojalovaa1 mentioned, you can see the fourth movement in Juha's video. Just play it at 0,25 of normal speed and look at e.g. 00:10. To me it seems that Juha's software uses different paths for mounting and unmounting.

Hopes this answers your question.

Best regards,
Dave

[Dave Prosee]

Additionally, I refererred to Cri s explanation not considering he says 3 points are enough. But that implies (implicitle) safe z moves at first when mounting and safe z move at last when unmounting. This implicit behaviour is in my opinion prone to future problems and for now something i would not rely on.

[Dave Prosee]

Reviewing all info I come to the following:
- with n points we create n-1 movements
- current implementation (3 points) works ok for magnet/click/friction based connection in an open tip holder. See first picture.
- for cp40 nozzles the friction/spring combination requests a third movement / fourth point
- keyhole type nozzle tip holder/changers request an additional fourth movement / fifth point.
  This type of changers seems to offer no advantage and is even restrictive to the size of the nozzle tip below the flange (e.g. for picking up very large parts).
  See second picture.
- cp40 nozzles can live with the same return path but could also function with 3 points/2movements for unmounting





I am not aware of further varieties but for the sake of one time sw development this would be the moment to add remarks.

Best regards,
Dave

[Cri S]

I had made customization with 4 nozzle changer positions,

because it was requested. Mojalovaa1 surely remember it.

It turned out not only from Mojalovaa1, that is was asked just because the operators don't understood the motions.

Further the use of GUI for configuring it have added confusion too fooling operators to think it is possible to make setup using camera and click. Camera optics have offsets relative to chip, inevitable on m12 holder. Using it on different height, some users have reported destroyer drivers, mostly when offset was bigger as 0.5mm .

I'm returned to 3 position setup and on most branches I have disabled the possibility of GUI configuration.

The only necessary addon was to add configuration to nozzle Tips name of nozzle park position and name of actual position, nozzle or park name.

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[Matt Brocklehurst]

Hi Cri

I'm slightly intrigued... have you got a lot of machines running on OpenPNP?

Matt

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[Juha Kuusama]

On Friday, October 28, 2016 at 10:00:39 AM UTC+3, Dave Prosee wrote:

<..>

Additionally: as mojalovaa1 mentioned, you can see the fourth movement in Juha's video. Just play it at 0,25 of normal speed and look at e.g. 00:10. To me it seems that Juha's software uses different paths for mounting and unmounting.

Correct. The way I ended up using the CP40 nozzles is a bit involved. You can see a picture of the holder here http://www.liteplacer.com/shop20/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=66 , bottom of the page. There are magnets to hold the nozzles in place. I think these (or some other system holding nozzles in place) are needed: The holder is on a vibrating machine table; if an unused nozzle shifts position in the holder due to vibrations and you try to load it, the results are not funny. The magnets make the nozzles a bit in an angle. Therefore, my load sequence is:

1) take the adapter above the nozzle

2) lower the adapter to the nozzle slightly

3) Move it away from the holder end, so there is some clearance for the nozzle to move when really loading it

4) Push the adapter fully in to the nozzle

5) Lift the Z that the nozzle is not pressed against the holder

6) Move the nozzle fully away from the holder

7) Lift the Z to fully up position

So, six moves, not counting going to the sequence start position. I'm not sure all this is necessary, but that is how I do it currently.

Unloading is much simpler:

1) Go to start location

2) Lower the nozzle to the correct height so that it goes in to the holder

3) Take the nozzle to the holder end

4) Lift the adapter, nozzle stays in holder.

 

You can see the the unload / load sequence in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c5Vtuefm7o at 2:30. It looks like the machine is doing more than described above, but that is because slack correction (forcing the machine to approach a given position from the same direction each time) is enabled for the first movement.

Best regards, Juha

[Dave Prosee]

Thanks Juha,

I use magnets too at each position to be sure the tips are allways in one defined position.

[Cri S]

Matt:
No, I have helped some people running it up for production at a time where openPnP was not right for that. And i know a lot about pnp. Further I had some different requirement as Jason is more focussed on slow machines and a lot of clicking ( maybe im more a Unix user) and i am more biased with config files and Production setup.
Differences, there are a lot, mostly small but that make it difficult to merge code.
Basically i use grbl gcode.
Fid, i use hough circle, template match , i use
Different code, pick and place processor, only funktional programming, no State machine as this limits a lot customisation and flexibility in my eye. I have only one processor, that pick and place, dispense, glue, aoi and with flags have some debug hooks. Using it as programmer is done as scripting. It is part centric, dispense and glue dispense only a single part and board hold a list of parts. There are bigger differences related to batch processing a lot with less then required feeders, planner have more access to things and are more advanced/difficult to use.
Feeder coordinates are same as traditional PNP,
different to openPnP, ... And most biggest aspect, it don't run without config data:
Camera calibration, stepper calibration, part picture, timing ...
The difficult is doing that calibrations and setup the configuration .
Thinking that most people give just up configuring accel and max speed even with config manual and tools or prefer lower speed higher order motion profiles because less difficult to setup, and lightning need to be setup correctly.
Lightning need to be setup having independent control for direct light and indirect. Otherwise its not possible as example reading part I'd or on loose feeders determining position of pin1 or if part is flipped. If that don't scare you, I could help set it up. No direct eagle import, only CSV.

[Jason von Nieda]

I still don't quite understand why the movement up before sliding out is needed. I don't see anything locking the nozzle in when the spring is compressed. It would just slide out and then when it comes free from the holder the spring would expand, right?

In any case, adding a fourth movement is easy and I've logged a ticket for it https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/issues/354.

Jason

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[Dave Prosee]

I see what you mean, but I see three reasons against your option:

1) the tip flange is not designed for friction against the lower part of the tip holder while moving horizontally
2) after leaving the tip holder the tip could expand and hit something. In my case i would like the tip holder to remain safely low when head mountables are on safe-Z. This means my tip holder is quite low to the minimum level I have (this is to be honest more of a design issue)
3) the reverse path is then not usable because the mid-location would be below the horizontal insert. Or in other words: when unmounting the tip arrives too low.

The last reason is probably the most compelling.
Regards,
Dave

[Jason von Nieda]

Dave,

You are right, I had not considered the third point and that makes it. Look for the change later today. I'm on a roll :)

Jason

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[Dave Prosee]

Thank you Jason,

You made me happy.
I am not in a hurry by the way. Still have other things to finish.
But nevertheless looking forward to having four points.

Cheers,
Dave

[Cri S]

In case you implement the optional movement for Mojalovaa1 the initial and final end position should be moved only at safeZ height. The global nozzleChangerPos at beginning to unloading it even if no nozzle is loaded and at the end of nozzle loading. If you use location with NaN as default value the impact to actual nozze changer code is small. The reason for this is to not travel over the nozzles tail and accidentally bend loaded nozzles.

[Jason von Nieda]

Thanks Cri, I will make sure to add this. 

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:27 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

In case you implement the optional movement for Mojalovaa1 the initial and final end position should be moved only at safeZ height. The global nozzleChangerPos at beginning to unloading it even if no nozzle is loaded and at the end of nozzle loading. If you use location with NaN as default value the impact to actual nozze changer code is small. The reason for this is to not travel over the nozzles tail and accidentally bend loaded nozzles.

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[Jason von Nieda]

This change is now deployed to latest. More information at https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/blob/develop/CHANGES.md#2016-10-28

Please note: The configuration should be backwards compatible, but if you have an existing nozzle tip changer setup I'd suggest running the machine slow with your finger on the E-Stop while testing this for the first time, just to be sure nothing bad happens.

Jason

[Cri S]

Can you add annother  move, for the future to catch any necessity, as example that of mojavaa1 to avoid collisions.
Further are you  willing to include two tweaks?
First, during nozzle change enable vacuum, ie after first move do a pick and after last move do a place.
This is for drivers that optimize travel speed based on the decision if there is components on the nozzle or not .
Second tweaks setting for advanced users to set speed.
In order to be compatible and hidden use rotation .
And because certain nozzles need special rotation value ,rotation should be the value up to two numbers after dot separator.without rounding.
Then two numbers for nozzle load speed and two numbers for nozzle unload speed.
The speed numbers are always percent and the value 1 is added for the final percentage, 99 become 100 and 0 becomes 1.
Example 00.002575. Rotation 0 deg and 26 percent load speed with 76 percent unload speed.
If both load speed and unload speed is zero use the default value.

Instead of calling
moveTo(nt.getChangerMidLocation(), getHead().getMachine().getSpeed() * 0.25);
Use
moveToChanger(nt.getChangerMidLocation(),load,getHead...*0.25)
were load and unload are final boolean.

[Jason von Nieda]

Cri,

These sound like good changes, but let me propose a different method:

1. Change the four locations to just be a list of locations. You can add as many as you want.

2. Be able to set a speed per location. The speed will be applied when moving TO that location, whether it is for load or unload.

3. Add an option per location to turn vacuum on. So vacuum can be turned on and off for any given location.

Would this cover all of your use cases?

Thanks,

Jason

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[Cri S]

Il 30/ott/2016 01:02 "Jason von Nieda" <ja...@vonnieda.org> ha scritto:
>
> Cri,
>
> These sound like good changes, but let me propose a different method:
>
> 1. Change the four locations to just be a list of locations. You can add as many as you want.

This is preferred method, I have not proposed it because of backward compatibility if existing user upgrade later.

> 2. Be able to set a speed per location. The speed will be applied when moving TO that location, whether it is for load or unload.

Ok

> 3. Add an option per location to turn vacuum on. So vacuum can be turned on and off for any given location.

It is not the vacuum actor but pick and place command, and it should blow out the nozzle too or in case of nozzle unload blow out the filter , in this case where no nozzle is beyond.
Remember, im returned to endposition on nozzle unload.

Boolean option that enable/disable pick and place option on begin and end of each single load/unload operation sounds good.
However why you want disable it, it should clean the nozzle and filter too. This is specially important if using nozzles with rubber for melf or special parts like LEDs that need stored on talkum during night.

PS:
Rotation is important too for special nozzles.

Additional proposal, not really urgent but if discussing about different interface it should be talked about.
Why not make the List on Machine.
Item0 is the changerStartPos and used only to calc the movement relative to it. Movement processing is started from 1.
Rotation could be the speed value TO that position.
On NozzleTip wizard only the NozzleChangerStartPos is configurable INCLUDING rotation. The other movements are derived from the general changerMotion List. Further configuration should allow nozzleTips on Machine/Head/Nozzle and the getNozzleTips should include all nozzleTips
that are NOT mounted. Planner need to be checked later or replanning if nozzle is not available to mount. Maybe then getAllNozzleTips and getMountedNozzleTips function should be available too, renamed like your preference.
I know this is more work but could resolve two issues. Shared NozzleTip problem and remove the need for calculator and paper when configuring nozzle changer.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Cri,

I think we agree here. I did mean pick/place, not vacuum actuator. So we're good there. 

As for your additional proposal, I do like the idea of making the list relative movements so you don't have to set movements for every nozzle tip. I think this is something that can be added to a more advanced changer. In https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/issues/118 we talk about the idea of making NozzleTipChanger an interface so that you can swap out the implementation. And in https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/issues/183 we talk about making nozzle tips global, as you mentioned above.

I am going to update these tickets with the current ideas, and add a new one for the enhancements to the existing changer. We can discuss further there. I'll post the updated tickets here once I finish.

Jason

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[Cri S]

Just remembered.
NozzleTip need a exclusive flag too.
If nozzleTip with exclusive flag is used no other nozzle of the same head are allowed to pick up another component and if on the same head are already picked up components, this have to be placed before the exclusive nozzletip could be used. Examples for that usage are gripper and slot nozzles. As grippernozzles could be easy 3d printed there usage is not uncommon especially if populating header pins with solder in paste technology.

[Dave Prosee]

Thanks for so quickly adopting the four movements.
Makes me wonder though how other CP40 users are managing their movements up till now with openPNP.

By the way: in your commit/change comment you mention the reason being Liteplacer style changers. For future reference I would say it is for nozzle tip holders with springs. To my knowledge the Liteplacer nozzle tip holder is not different to most holders I have seen. And my holder type could easily be used for any click/frriction (e.g. Juki) style tip with a spring on the nozzle instead of the nozzle holder. In short: it is the spring on de nozzle holder instead of the nozzle tip that requested this change.

That said, last words should remain: thank you.

[Jason von Nieda]

Thanks for the comment Dave. The reason I wrote it that way is that this is the first time I've seen this type of movement. Quite possibly because this is the first time this style of changer has been used with OpenPnP. 

For Juki style nozzles, many people have been using a ramp to compress the spring, so only three movements are required.

In any case, I agree, four movements will be ideal for many systems where the nozzle holder is spring loaded. 

Jason

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[mojalovaa1]

This is my nozzle changer  with 3 move and safe zone  :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MXfYlJVfIg  

[Daniel]

Hello All,

I have managed to restart my Zeva and I will implement the same model of nozzle changer.

I had a look on documentation but I don't find references how to set up this kind of changer.

Could you please post some details about your configuration ? 

Kind regards,

Daniel

[Matt Brocklehurst]

Hi Daniel

How are you going to use the Zeva atc with the 500-style nozzles? They don't fit... I've tried :(

Matt 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Daniel Dumitru]

Hello Matt,

I have serious limitations on financial part and I have chosen CP40 nozzles.

I have made as well some nozzle adaptors and I plan to use those.

Will be pretty much like Juha's design.

Br,

Daniel

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[Kerim Kalelioğlu]

Hi Jason,

I am Kerim from kalecnc, we are currentl working on a new pick and place machine. you can see the first prototypes at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc0qKoqRIh0

at your software in the automatic nozzle changer section, we need one more actuator after the last move (maybe named Post Last Actuator)

is it possible to implement this

thanks in advance

Kerim

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[bert shivaan]

Hi, Can you please list in detail each step needed to change your tool. Both for load and unload?

Include things like turn on air cylinder or rotate turret or anything like that.

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[Kerim Kalelioğlu]

loading:
position: go to position 4 ( over the tip )
actuator: raise the tip holder
position: lower the nozzle to engage the tip (position 3)
position: go to right to take out the tip from holder (position 2)
position: go to position 1 (in fron of the tip holder)
actuator: lower the tip holder

unloading:
position: go to position 1 (in front of the tip holder)
actuator: raise the tip holder
position: lower the tip to the engagement point (position 2)
position: insert the tip to holder (position 3)
position: raise the nozzle to safe z (position 4)
actuator: lower the tip holder ( this is the part I need )

[bert shivaan]

You can use post  unload script for it. There is a proper name that I don't have off hand, but it is there.

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[Kerim Kalelioğlu]

hi cncmachineguy,

I will try this (post unload script) I think it will solve the issue

[Artem Stanchak]

пʼятниця, 4 листопада 2022 р. о 08:13:57 UTC+2 kerimka...@gmail.com пише: