New to OpenPnP questions

[grover]

Hi, I don't have an OpenPnP machine, but I'm thinking of getting one. I'm hoping I can get a few questions answered first.

1) Does the OpenPnP software allow for manual selection of fiducial location? That is, when I'm starting a job, and ignoring automatic AI FID detection, can I jog the camera crosshair over to the center of the fiducial and press a button confirming the fiducial's location?

2) When I'm about to run a job, can I check and overwrite the placement positions? This type of idea

3) I'd like to confirm that I can do drag feeders. A lot of you have some skills and advanced knowledge light years ahead of me. Let me qualify, is there a simple way, within a novice's abilities, of setting it up to have the nozzle drag the tape forwards? I've seen this video: . That, but having it switch to a nozzle sized for the tape hole, drag the tape forwards, and then go back to the normal nozzle?

Thank you in advance

[JW]

Welcome to the forums, then.

Yes, yes, and I'm almost certain Yes.

1) Yes indeed, you can simply jog over the fiducials, line up on the fiducials in the camera feed and tell OpenPnP that'd where a given fiducial is. Whilst you can, the only time I've ever done this so far is when I had double sided tape on the board in question, rather than solder paste, to help parts stay in place during trial placements aiding machine setup, and my vision pipeline was struggling to find the fiducials due to terrible reflection off the tape. What is your perceived use case for this?

2) Yes, in the window where the placements are listed, the XY position of each placement is directly editable on the fly.

3) I don't directly use drag feeders, but yes you 100% can, and they are natively supported in OpenPnP. I think what most people do rather than using a nozzle tip go drag, is to install a pin on a linear solenoid, and use that (under control by OpenPnP) to come down in Z into the tape holes. But best somebody else adds to this answer re drag feeders.

[PP.ca]

For no 3 - there are better options available than drag feeders. Going down this road one will run into the need to peel tape, therefore one motor required. From that to an additional one to actually move the tape, it’s not much more.

The latest crop of feeders became quite accurate for 0402 and up, making use of visual calibration and reliable mechanisms.

[Jan]

Hi Grover!
Any part/fiducial of a job can serve as (manual) reference. This is
especially helpful when the designer has missed to add fiducials that
can be automatically processed. You select locations to check and use
the camera to verify/correct them.
All part locations can be edited on the boards tab. You can even add
them manually.
I do not recommend to use a nozzle tip for dragging. The nozzle tip is
the most sensible part of the machine and using it for dragging might
bend or even damage it. It will very likely also void the calibration.
As PP.ca pointed out, there are better options, especially if you're in
the processes of designing a machine where you can still take
requirements for a certain feeder into account. Depending on your needs,
you might wont to take a look at the all 3d printed push-pull-feeder and
some of full automatic feeders recently discussed here. You might also
consider taking commercial feeders into account. They are very fast,
reliable and easy to swap.

Jan

On 27.06.2024 19:32, grover wrote:
> Hi, Idon't have an OpenPnP machine, but I'm thinking of getting one. I'm

> hoping I can get a few questions answered first.
>
> 1) Does the OpenPnP software allow for manual selection of fiducial
> location? That is, when I'm starting a job, and ignoring automatic AI
> FID detection, can I jog the camera crosshair over to the center of the
> fiducial and press a button confirming the fiducial's location?
>
> 2) When I'm about to run a job, can I check and overwrite the placement
> positions? This type of idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty6lCqCpTfs
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty6lCqCpTfs>
> 3) I'd like to confirm that I can do drag feeders. A lot of you have
> some skills and advanced knowledge light years ahead of me. Let me
> qualify, is there a simple way, within a novice's abilities, of setting
> it up to have the nozzle drag the tape forwards? I've seen this video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QcJ2ziIJ14

> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QcJ2ziIJ14>. That, but having it

> switch to a nozzle sized for the tape hole, drag the tape forwards, and
> then go back to the normal nozzle?
>
> Thank you in advance
>

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[bing luo]

You can use an electromagnet to drag   the   tape   , using a  nozzle to drag will  damage the  nozzle.

[grover]

Welcome to the forums, then.

Yes, yes, and I'm almost certain Yes.

1) Yes indeed, you can simply jog over the fiducials, line up on the fiducials in the camera feed and tell OpenPnP that'd where a given fiducial is. Whilst you can, the only time I've ever done this so far is when I had double sided tape on the board in question, rather than solder paste, to help parts stay in place during trial placements aiding machine setup, and my vision pipeline was struggling to find the fiducials due to terrible reflection off the tape. What is your perceived use case for this?

I could foresee the computer vision being temperamental.  It's good to know that if the machine spirits are disagreeable, I can conveniently override them.

2) Yes, in the window where the placements are listed, the XY position of each placement is directly editable on the fly.

3) I don't directly use drag feeders, but yes you 100% can, and they are natively supported in OpenPnP. I think what most people do rather than using a nozzle tip go drag, is to install a pin on a linear solenoid, and use that (under control by OpenPnP) to come down in Z into the tape holes. But best somebody else adds to this answer re drag feeders.

Thank you

[grover]

Thank you.

I'm hoping to use 1 of 2 heads for dragging the tape in the short term, and putting a weight on the tape cover.  Then I don't use that head for part placement?  In the long run I could move on to proper feeders.  I'm also considering buying a Neoden, and they seem to get by with a drag feeder system.  

I'm seeing various 3d printed feeders, are there any that stand out?  What is your experience for their convenience and durability?

[grover]

Hi Grover!
Any part/fiducial of a job can serve as (manual) reference. This is
especially helpful when the designer has missed to add fiducials that
can be automatically processed. You select locations to check and use
the camera to verify/correct them.
All part locations can be edited on the boards tab. You can even add
them manually.
I do not recommend to use a nozzle tip for dragging. The nozzle tip is
the most sensible part of the machine and using it for dragging might
bend or even damage it. It will very likely also void the calibration.
As PP.ca pointed out, there are better options, especially if you're in
the processes of designing a machine where you can still take
requirements for a certain feeder into account. Depending on your needs,
you might wont to take a look at the all 3d printed push-pull-feeder and
some of full automatic feeders recently discussed here. You might also
consider taking commercial feeders into account. They are very fast,
reliable and easy to swap.

Jan

Hello Jan,

I'll keep that in mind.  I'm looking at a Pandaplacer or Lumen.  They both have 2 heads.  I was thinking I could get by using 1 of 2 heads for dragging.  The other for part placement.  Then consider proper feeders going forwards.  I see the ReferencePushPull feeder setup.  I don't suppose there is a way in OpenPnP to allocate 1 head to be the 'needle'?

Thank you

[grover]

You can use an electromagnet to drag   the   tape   , using a  nozzle to drag will  damage the  nozzle.

Hello Tian.  

Do you have a recommendation for an actuator + needle unit?  The one pictured (DS 1624s)?  Think of me as NOT a poweruser.  I'm thinking of buying a Pandaplacer or Lumen.  I don't know if their control boards would let me wire in additional actuators. 

Thank you

[grover]

I appreciate the input.  I like the idea of feeders, but I've found the 3d printing feeder stuff to be very finicky.  In don't want to commit to fiddling.  I would like to purchase a Lumen/Pandaplacer solution and not have to modify or build hardware, and not have to wire in anything custom.  I don't even understand this controller board stuff.  I'm looking into what I can configure in the settings in the OpenPnP software, with a beginner level of understanding, to circumvent those other steps.  

[JW]

On the point of temperamental vision, OpenPnP includes a really user friendly vision pipeline editor.

In the context of machine vision, a pipeline is the series of processing steps from image aquision through to getting the information you need out of the image.

So, say for example you have something in the image that keeps getting mistakenly identified as a component leg, like a screw on the underside of your machine head, you can go into the pipeline editor, and apply a mask for example into the image so that part of the image is ignored.

Or you can ignore certain colours, change sensitivity of the functions that best-fit the location of the component legs/pads etc.

In summary, temperamental machine vision is poorly configured machine vision.

[JW]

Probably also worth mentioning, OpenPnP doesn't reinvent the wheel when it comes to machine vision, it leverages OpenCV, which is pretty much the gold standard when it comes to machine vision.