Very simple automatic feeder design

[alex]

Not sure, maybe this was already posted somewhere..

I've found photos of extremely simple auto feeder.
Any thoughts?

[Jason von Nieda]

This looks *perfect*. Is there any more info?

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[Jacob Christ]

This looks very similar to a Manncorp feeder.  $500 each.

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Jacob Christ
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http://www.pontech.com

[Graeme Bridge]

That doesn't look to hard to reverse engineer

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 6:27:13 PM UTC+1, Jacob Christ wrote:

This looks very similar to a Manncorp feeder.  $500 each.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:20 AM, alex <al...@sai.msu.ru> wrote:

Not sure, maybe this was already posted somewhere..

I've found photos of extremely simple auto feeder.
Any thoughts?

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[alex]

Unfortunately no more info.
I've found it here (in Russian): http://www.cnczone.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=178&st=675&p=29889&#entry29889
As I understand this feeder is Essemtec, but not fully sure.
Any way it worth of trying to create a DIY clone using common and cheap components + laser cutting/milling/3d printing.

[Mark Harris]

So pulling the tape off is the only thing driving the tape through?

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[Mark Harris]

If its that simple to build a feeder (just pull the cover), and if essemtec are doing it that way (I have huge respect for essemtec), I'll add that to my list of designs to investigate :)

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[Graeme Bridge]

Ive found the reduction spur gear box, its maxton motor and 12:1 the motor might take a little more searching on their website to get the spec

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 7:26:18 PM UTC+1, Mark Harris wrote:

If its that simple to build a feeder (just pull the cover), and if essemtec are doing it that way (I have huge respect for essemtec), I'll add that to my list of designs to investigate :)

On 5 August 2016 at 12:17, alex <al...@sai.msu.ru> wrote:

Unfortunately no more info.
I've found it here (in Russian): http://www.cnczone.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=178&st=675&p=29889&#entry29889
As I understand this feeder is Essemtec, but not fully sure.
Any way it worth of trying to create a DIY clone using common and cheap components + laser cutting/milling/3d printing.

On Friday, 5 August 2016 20:25:44 UTC+3, Jason von Nieda wrote:

This looks *perfect*. Is there any more info?

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:20 PM alex <al...@sai.msu.ru> wrote:

Not sure, maybe this was already posted somewhere..

I've found photos of extremely simple auto feeder.
Any thoughts?

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[Graeme Bridge]

reading back through the thread some one has decoded the motor and parts already lol

[Jason von Nieda]

Pulling just the tape is a common method used in a couple other DIY systems I've seen. First place I saw it was Volker Besmens' PP4 machine: https://www.vbesmens.de/en/pick-and-place/automatic-feeder.html

He used hobby servos to do the same thing, but I really like the meshing gear system (also used by Neoden 4). I feel like this would be very easy to feed tape into to get it started and the feed point can be very close to the part pick point, eliminating the need for long leaders.

I think the trick to doing this well will be controlling the speed and torque of the pulling motor so that you don't cause parts to flip out of the pocket from abrupt movements.

Jason

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[Graeme Bridge]

Agreed, i will try and find the motor spec. The part number isn't showing anything on the mason website

[Mark Harris]

That should just be a matter of managing the acceleration of the motor. I find the sprocket for the tape drive being passive really weird lol. Being that its encoded though, as long as the feeder can talk back to the control software it would be able to detect when the tape pull slips and is no longer driving the parts.

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[Mark Harris]

I don't think the motor spec really matters if it's geared down. It doesnt need that  much torque to pull tape, I'd guess the gearbox is there just to slow the thing down.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Mark,

Yep, the passive sprocket is actually pretty smart. I had been envisioning a similar system where the sprocket was driven and encoded, which would make advancing the right amount very easy, but I had figured on running an o-ring belt up to the meshing gears for cover tape pulling. Then you have to worry about slippage. With this setup you just keep on pullin' until the encoder says stop. I like it!

Jason

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[Mark Harris]

Where does the cover tape end up though? Does it go into a bin - there doesnt appear to be anything to pull it into a tidy spool.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Yea, just chuck it in a bin or let it fall on the floor :)

For a motor, I recommend checking out these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/60RPM-6V-0-3A-High-Torque-Mini-Electric-DC-Geared-Motor-for-Robot-CP/331664294487?_trksid=p2045573.c100506.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35375%26meid%3Dae4c2470c8044932a072027b94495426%26pid%3D100506%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26

They are available in a huge array of RPM and voltages, they are cheap as dirt and they are very thin. Perfect for a thin tape feeder.

In previous explorations on this topic I even 3D printed a worm gear set to try it with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuwJ_Z9AOY

Jason

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[alex]

On Friday, 5 August 2016 21:45:42 UTC+3, Mark Harris wrote:

I don't think the motor spec really matters if it's geared down. It doesnt need that  much torque to pull tape, I'd guess the gearbox is there just to slow the thing down.

Agree.

One thing to consider is how to push the tape up in the pick location. Tapes may very largely vary in thickness. it's not clear for me how it is done in this feeder.

An idea of using passive sprocket with optical switch seems very interesting. It assures high accuracy tape moving with actually low mechanical  accuracy of pulling mechanism.

 

[Mark Harris]

I think the wheel with the sproket on it is basically a spring, pushing outwards, or perhaps just has a soft rubber disc in it?

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[Graeme Bridge]

I found the machine brochure and it shows the feeder, so i guess i should look and see if i can find the machine manual and see if there is a diagram

[alex]

If one optical sensor is not enough for high accuracy or smooth operations, then a few sensors may be used. For example one detects when 1mm of pulling tape left and this is a signal for the motor to start slowing down, and the second one stops the tape. Also we can make a lot of algorithm based hacks as for example calculating the average speed for given tape with given motor voltage and use it to drive the tape accurately. Another way is just to pull the film very slow (we don't need a 10 Hz feeder for DIY machine, right?) we can also start to pull the tape as soon as previous component was pickup, so while it is placed the feeder feeds one more.

[Graeme Bridge]

Mark this is the sprocket detail on the drawing i found not he Russian site

[alex]

Oh, now it's clear how it works. No springs, just a 1mm supporting disc on the other side of sprocket.

[Mark Harris]

Alex can you translate that drawing for us please?

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[Graeme Bridge]

if you go back up 14 posts i uploaded the full pdf thats all in russian, 

[alex]

Sure. But though nothing non obvious :)

[alex]

Seen this pdf before starting the topic, but there is almost no interesting info these as for me comparing to photos which  are self explaining.

[Paul Kelly]

Hmm, it does look simple. I wonder if elasticity in the cover tape might cause some over run. The glue adhesion, particularly on older paper tapes can be inconsistent. Not a problem if you have a downward camera and use vision for pickup I guess.

If it did prove to be a problem, you could add detents to the sprocket wheel and use a solenoid to engage them when you approached the next feed position..

In any case I reckon it’s a design worth trying..

PK

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[Bdale Garbee]

The most interesting aspect of the vbesmens design to me was the use of uber-cheap rc servos bought through hobby king, which he opened up and pulled the circuit board out of to basically end up with a DC motor with gear reduction that's very inexpensive.  I bought a pile of such servos to play with, and have designed a little board that uses an ARM Cortex M0 as interface between USB and 16 motor drivers.  Just got the raw boards in and haven't loaded one yet, but it'd be a good choice for driving a bank of feeders using any of these small geared-down DC motors.

I wonder if modifying the vbesmens design to use meshed gears like this for the tape pulling instead of winding it up on a thimble would be a good solution... hrm.

[Michael Anton]

Yes, these motors are great.  I'm using one in my feeder design, and they have lots of torque, especially for their size.

[Bdale Garbee]

The vbesmens design uses a particular microswitch the dimpled end of the arm of which can detect the sprocket holes in the tape quite accurately and repeatably.  Doesn't have the same problem an optical sensor would have with handling different degrees of translucency in the tape.  That's why I keep pondering taking elements from his design, as some of these things seem to have been very well thought ought by him...

[Anthony Webb]

The design I have seen using optical sensors senses teeth of a gear instead of holes, having seen the variation of distance hole to hole on tapes I would feel better about using optical with the teeth of a gear as opposed to relying on the holes themselves.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Bdale Garbee <bd...@gag.com> wrote:

The vbesmens design uses a particular microswitch the dimpled end of the arm of which can detect the sprocket holes in the tape quite accurately and repeatably.  Doesn't have the same problem an optical sensor would have with handling different degrees of translucency in the tape.  That's why I keep pondering taking elements from his design, as some of these things seem to have been very well thought ought by him...

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[Jason von Nieda]

Agreed. The sensor should sense teeth of the sprocket or holes in it, not the holes of the tape.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM Anthony Webb <anthon...@gmail.com> wrote:

The design I have seen using optical sensors senses teeth of a gear instead of holes, having seen the variation of distance hole to hole on tapes I would feel better about using optical with the teeth of a gear as opposed to relying on the holes themselves.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Bdale Garbee <bd...@gag.com> wrote:

The vbesmens design uses a particular microswitch the dimpled end of the arm of which can detect the sprocket holes in the tape quite accurately and repeatably.  Doesn't have the same problem an optical sensor would have with handling different degrees of translucency in the tape.  That's why I keep pondering taking elements from his design, as some of these things seem to have been very well thought ought by him...

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[Paul Jones]

I bought a few of them for feeder experiments in the past – they are very good. I also did a 3d printed worm gear which meshed up quite nicely, but that was as far as I got. I was trying to drive the main sprocket which was my downfall, that’s difficult to do without custom metal parts. Pulling the cover tape is much better imho.

 

Paul.

 

From: ope...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason von Nieda
Sent: Saturday, 6 August 2016 4:51 AM
To: ope...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [OpenPnP] Very simple automatic feeder design

 

Yea, just chuck it in a bin or let it fall on the floor :)

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[Michael Anton]

I managed to figure out how to use off the shelf nylon spur gears, and a worm to drive the sprocket.  The benefit is they are really cheap.  The sprocket on the other hand was more expensive, but even that laser cut out of stainless steel was not too bad.  I'll post more details when I have something to show.

[Oz-Ron]

Knocked up a drawing in SketchUp plus an STL file if anyone is interested and has a good 3D printer.  (Adopted a pair of F695 ballraces for ABS.)

There are other ways to pull the tape and I am working on prototyping a unique design that could work very nicely with this kind of feeder.  

Cheers,

Ron

[Jan Juranek]

Did anyone try to redesign this? What do you think, does it make sance to design feeder like this these days (use just peel motor to move tape forward) or it's better to use something like Michael's feeder shared on openPnp website?

Dne pátek 5. srpna 2016 19:20:56 UTC+2 alex napsal(a):

[Mike Menci]

There is one more coming out soon onto the market - simple cheap one - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10600960897

Mike

[Jason von Nieda]

Holy smokes! That thing is interesting!

How'd you find this Mike? Do you have one?

Jason

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[Mike Menci]

Translation from Chines Web;

This SMT electric independent feeder. The inside is equipped with a control board, a micro motor, a transmission mechanism, etc.; it is connected to the placement machinethrough a USB connector, and provides a signal and a 5Vpower supply to the feeder . Equipped with a simple coding algorithm, it can theoretically support an unlimited number of feeders working in parallel. When the feeder receives the signal, the stripping and feeding work can be completed by itself, and the recovered sealing tape is wound into the take-up reel, and the wheel can accommodate (1 disc ) of thesealing strip ; the user can change the component state. At the same time, the cover inside the take-up reel can be removed.  

The feeder feeding trough is made of aluminum strips (it isconvenient for users to modify various special components, such as chip electrolytic capacitors, etc. ) . Currently, only8mm , 12mm , 16mm , 24mm and other conveyor belts are available. Feeder length: 280mm width: The 120 mmthickness is 15mm , 19mm , 23mm , 31mm . The feedermoves forward with 4.0mm as a feed unit (one step). Several feeders can be mounted side by side on a placement machine; each feeder can be fitted with a paper or plastic strip. It can not only transport RC components, but also Transistors, SMD IC devices and SMD electrolytic capacitors.

The feeder is designed with a photoelectric switch with adjustment function to eliminate the mechanical and assembly errors and effectively ensure the picking center position. In the transmission aspect, the feed roller rotates one tooth per revolution of the motor, and The feeding accuracy is independent of the number of revolutions of the motor and the stop position of the motor, thus eliminating the transmission error.

USB interface description: 1 pin is connected to the drive signal input pin, 2 and 3 feet are grounded, and 4 pin is connected to DC 5V power supply.

[Mike Menci]

Google- Jason you have friends now in China from your new machine - let them send 1 or 2 containers to you!   :-)) 

Mike

[Jason von Nieda]

At ¥160 I'm definitely going to try to get a couple :)

Jason

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[Jan Juranek]

I’m in!

pá 2. 11. 2018 v 22:08 odesílatel Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> napsal:

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[Mike Menci]

And here is my 3D printed feeder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSf3S6qtWVo 

and enclosed is super cheap electronics for it if someone wants to program Atiny10 ?!  Is it doable ? 

[Anthony Webb]

If they sell feeders for a buck fourty, I cant imagine how cheap the must sell toilet paper for?  If I had any clue how to actually get one coming, I would!

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[Jason von Nieda]

Closer to $24... but still cheap! :)

Jason

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[Anthony Webb]

Did I miss something in the conversion?

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[Jason von Nieda]

Chinese Yuan, not Japanese Yen.

Jason

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[Anthony Webb]

Mike, I'd be interested in helping, are there plans somewhere that I could print?

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[Anthony Webb]

Ah, I see, the almighty google is failing me :)

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[Jan Juranek]

Mike, I’m more Microchip PIC guy than Atmel (ok, microchip aquired Avr,..). I’m have no experience with closed loop controlers (probably needed for positioning) but I can design communicatikn stack - for example CAN for using more feeders on one bus :)

pá 2. 11. 2018 v 22:26 odesílatel Anthony Webb <anthon...@gmail.com> napsal:

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[Marius Liebenberg]

Mike

I am willing to do the code for you. Is there a sensor to at least look at the feed holes or something similar? PM me to discuss.

[Mike Menci]

Thanks for offering your help Marius,  

I do have a Code which I am working on now and for now I am OK.

Mike

[Marek T.]

Hi Mike
Your feeder looks nice but why have you used rolling wheel instead of two gears driving the tape between them...?
So advancement is by pulling the covering tape?

[Mike Menci]

No advancing is by sprocket drive - spool has a separate motor

[Marek T.]

Sound good except this rolling wheel. We use some old yamahas and some of them are with wheels like your (older models) and some have two gears like in MichaelG feeders - and they are much much more convenient in use.

Anyway, some sharing plans of your project? Could be good to test some :-)

[Mike Menci]

Marek not ready for public eye... 

[Marek T.]

It's nor good :-). Keep us updated so!

[Robo]

Found link from YouTube video

http://www.cnc-club.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=10453&start=240#p362371

[Mike Menci]

Hi all,
Here the cheapest solution dwg and stl files at; 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1efxJuhuNUJH9_3tX-cTng5TLmLWEuG0I?usp=sharing there is a simulation video to. 

I do not have time to print and test it but it should work with one on the motor options.... 

Mike

[Mike Menci]

Poor simulation:  Solidworks not cooperating with me.... anyone email me to make it happen neatly !? 

https://youtu.be/Xw0dAYeFGGk 

Mike

[bert shivaan]

Mike that is great!! I love seeing cam driven stuff!

-Bert

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[Marek T.]

Red pin is advancing the tape by its holes?

[bert shivaan]

Thats how I see it Marek. I think the idea is the cam pushes and holds the pin in a hole while the crank moves the tape

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[Marius Liebenberg]

Mike

It would seem that the cam timing is out by 180 deg.That is if I understand the concept to be that the pin is down when the cam moves the slide forward. If that is the case then the timing is out.

[Mike Menci]

It seams OK to me: 

see enclosed

Mike

[Mike Menci]

Here a bit more..

Mike

.

[Marius Liebenberg]

Ah. The direction in the simulation video is opposite or optically misleading

[Brynn Rogers]

How is this any better than the same motor turning a sprocket that is always engaged?

Yes, I guess you then must have sensors on the tape holes or sprocket so you can move the right amount consistantly,

but I see that as turning out a lot more reliable than the pin dipping in and out of sprocket holes on every increment.

But I am all for there being a lot of different designs until the perfect design is found :-)

[Mike Menci]

You are Correct  -  direction in the simulation video is opposite to what it should be!! 

Mike

[Mike Menci]

Hi, 

" I guess you then must have sensors on the tape holes or sprocket so you can move the right amount consistently" 

No - mechanically this feeder advances 4.2mm in this design and stops with 1 turn of the motor always on the same spot. 

Location of Pin is guided and aligned with tape holes.

For sprocket you need electronic to monitor the stop of motor (and SMT parts to stop) at the same spot each time 

 

There is not a problem of better design  - the problem with very reliable design is the Cost witch will go high per Unit of feeder.

Mike

[Marius Liebenberg]

I agree with Mike. Feeders should be as simple as possible and as cheap as possible. It is by far the biggest cost of building a PnP machine. Most of us do not build a machine that compares with huge production machines so cost is the main factor. I will build 48 feeders in the end and that quickly pushes the cost beyond reasonable. Well at least for me at this time.

I still find that Michael G's design is the cheapest and simple to build. I made mods that brings the cost as low as it can go. For me the cost of each is about R200 which equates to about $15 or so. There is a bit of extra cost for the mounting and connector hardware that is shred by all units  

[Marek T.]

Have you thought about the mod we talked? To change motor position.

[Mike Menci]

Change which motor to where?

BR, 

Mike

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On 20 Nov 2018, at 22.50, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Have you thought about the mod we talked? To change motor position.

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[Marek T.]

It was to Marius...

[Marius Liebenberg]

Yes I did Marek. It complicates the design and I could not find a reasonable solution in short time. I have not given up yet as I have an idea that must be developed. The problem with putting the servo at right angle with the tape gear is that the drive shaft is in the middle and if you offset the servo then you loose the small width feature. So maybe a double gear or something but I am still on it.

[Marek T.]

Understand! Good to hear you don't give up :-).
Definitely Michael's and Daren designs were the most interesting for me. However hard to compare them as Michael's one was practically brought to working state but Daren's project probably is gone.

[Marius Liebenberg]

Marek

I have looked at almost every possible solution that I could find on the net. I have been looking for a long time and my conclusion and therefore my choice was to use MichaelG's design.

I am just busy finishing off my vacuum system and the nozzle arrangement and then I will publish the changes to the code as well.

n

It is by far the simplest and most cost effective and with the couple of small changes I made, it is still cheaper and one can use off the shelf Mega Sensor Shield and the ATMega 2560 from Arduino. There is a small change that I must complete to Michael's code but it is really jut to accommodate the changes that I made to the hardware.

[Marek T.]

Yes.

I'm only not some specially convinced wether advancing with the pin not the sprocket is good. That's why I liked Daren's project. The bes (for me) would be to mix them each-other :-) :-)

[Mike Menci]

Hello 

Is anybody using this DIMA feeders ??  

I wonder how strong is the spring to trigger feeding ??

Thanks

Mike

[Marek T.]

I use some Philips feeders looking not like this but looks the same advancement idea.

A bottle with 0.75l of water presses advancing switch good. These days I have modified something and this way checked if got the same strongness like before my change :-).

[Trampas Stern]

I still say yamaha feeders are best value.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembleon-Yamaha-CL-Series-Feeder-Lot-8x2mm-8x4mm-12mm-16mm-Feeders-QTY-45/123366829580?hash=item1cb93c6e0c:g:NOAAAOSwkJNbmU0x

I wish i could add to my manncorp machine.

[bert shivaan]

I really like the Yamaha fingers that peel the tape from only one side. no need to have it everywhere or on a spool.

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