Very bad visual performance

[Marius]

Hi All
I put together a PC using a new Mitac PD14RI motherboard. It has 2Gb ram
and USB3.0 ports. After I connected the two cameras I found that the
visual update rate is longer than one second on each camera.

SO I would surmise that the motherboard is just not up to the task. So
what kind of processing power should one look at please?

Regards
Marius

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[Marek T.]

Hi Marius,

First thing what resolutions you have set?
Second connect them to two separated USB hosts necessarily.

[Marius Liebenberg]

I have them set at 1280 x 720 and at 10fps. Both cameras are connected to the same USB3.0 hub.

[Marek T.]

One of them connect to separated controller necessary. It has no chance to work well with Openpnp drivers in your configuration.
Plus my impression is that usb3.0 host works slower with 2.0 devices than typical host 2.0. At least at me, two cameras connected to the same 2.0 worked better than at 3.0. (but maybe it's matter of my computer setup only).

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

Hi Marius,

Which operating system are you running and are you using the OpenCV
camera driver or the OpenPnP Capture driver?

Regards,
Niels.

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Niels
I am running a Windows 10 basic installation and the driver is the new OpenPnpCapture driver.

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Marek
What does it mean that I have to connect one camera to a different controller?

The MB has only USB3.0 available. Can I downgrade?

[Marek T.]

Note that no matter which driver you use it will work weak with two cameras at same host. However OpenPnpCapture works mainly much better.

[Marek T.]

If your MB has only 3.0, check at least if you have there one or more hosts. I've never had the board like that. Usually a bit older mb had separate 2.0 and separate 3.0, or two hosts 2.0 like many Gigabyte. You rather can't downgrade the hardware... But you can add additional 2.0 cheap card.

[Jason von Nieda]

This is no longer true. Using the openpnpcapture driver you can have multiple cameras connected to one host. Make sure you are using an mjpeg format - not yuv.

That being said, I’m not sure how well that processor will perform. Two 720p streams with video processing is a tall task for a celeron.

Jason

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:29 AM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Note that no matter which driver you use it will work weak with two cameras at same host. However OpenPnpCapture works mainly much better.

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[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Jason

On my laptop I have the option of MPEG but on the new PC it is only giving me YUY2 options. Is there a driver missing maybe? This is a brand new Windows 10 installation.

[Jason von Nieda]

Are all updates applied? MS broke mjpeg in 10 but fixed it later in an update. Niels knows more about that - maybe he can comment.

Jason

[Marek T.]

No Jason, two cameras connected to one hosts using OpenCapture also works much worse than connected to separated hosts. Difference is that if you set low resolutions/refreshments (generally not too much data to exchange) you can use two cameras with OpenCapture one host and it works moreless but not impressing also using mjpeg, while with OpenCV it in practice doesn't work at all.
So of course OpenCapture is excellent comparing to OpenCV but it is still better to use two hosts. At least in my case 2Mpx +1 Mpx.

[Jason von Nieda]

The general idea is that the usb host has a certain amount of bandwidth and you can’t exceed that. You have to experiment a bit with formats and resolutions to find the sweet spot. But I know that two 720p streams works well on one because that is the setup I use.

In any case, I don’t think Marius’ issue is usb related, but just too slow of a cpu.

Jason

[Marius Liebenberg]

I have a feeling I will have to agree with Jason. My Windows is busy updating as we speak so I hope to have mpeg when it is done.
I did do a test by dropping the resolution to 640 and it makes a huge difference already.

[Marek T.]

The general idea is indisputable of course.
I have 720p and 1080p of ELP both as mjpeg streams. Connected them to different hosts as it didn't want to work with OpenCv as everybody knows. When you have published with Niels great OpenPnpCapture I have made many experiments to test it and still found it's better to keep them host separated. However as agreed, with OpenCapture it is much more effectively working than with CV and giving some chance to live with it at least.

Mainly, maybe all this depend not only on USB architecture idea but also type of host chipset, some its firmwares etc etc. At me I've found effects as said above what doesn't mean it must be the same at others...

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Marek
Forgive me if I am bit stupid here. What does it mean when you say separate hosts. How do I achieve that?

[Marek T.]

I don't say that Jason is not right diagnosing your concrete problem!!! Finaly he's an expert here, not me :-).
When I've experimented with OpenCapture when it appeared, I've tried every settings including YUV, and with YUV had total drama.
So really the first you should try is get updated and get mpeg.

[Marius]

I just changed both cameras to OpenCv and the performance is a whole lot better. That seems to not be consistent with what is expected.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Could be that they are using a lower default resolution, but in the end, if it works better that way, use it :)

[Marek T.]

In simplification host = controller.
To the controller usualy is connected hub (kind if divider) giving 4-8 ports. Bandwidth of this controller is divided, shared between these 4-8 ports. So their total data flow is limited my max bandwidth of the controller.

All ports in your MB maybe connected to the one controller and you may have total 480Mb bandwidth for 2.0 devices.
Or they can be connected through two hubs to two different controllers, then each hub (group of ports) have 480Mb.

Search the application like usbtreeview (or so so) that shows all the usb controllers, connected devices and data flow usage for each of them.

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

Hi Marius,

As Jason mentioned, MS removed MJPEG support in Win10 at some point. They brought it back later because a lot of people complained :)
Do the update first and see what happens. My updated Win10 installation + 1 ELP camera works fine (it has MJPEG).

Only the MS LifeCam 3000 gave me problems but I was able to fix that by doing a driver downgrade. Downgrading is not necessary with the ELP cameras because they use a generic UVC camera driver.

At this time, I expect the Win10 update to solve the MJPEG problem and you should then be able to run two cameras at a good resolution.

Regards,
Niels.

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[Marius]

Ok now that makes sense to me :) . I only have one USB controller on that MB and it is a USB3.0 controller. So if the problem remains I can add another piece of hardware to give me additional USB ports and that should have it's own controller. Like a PCI Express card or the likes.

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[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Niels

I installed the Windows yesterday and it just now updated. I still don't see any mpeg option under my camera resolution selections. Maybe I have to do a manual install of the mpeg stuff? Where does one start with that kind of problem?

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

Hi Marius,

Have you installed _all_ the updates? Several might still be inbound..

My ELP camera driver details are as follows:




It is not possible to install a separate package, unfortunately.

Regards,
Niels.

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[Marek T.]

If all your USB socket are blue and there is not them too many - probably
you have really one controller only. If the sockets are divided into blue
and black groups - you have there for sure two hubs at least and probably
also connected to two controllers.
The simplest way is to check in the MB specification. Or this application,
just found it on my disk :-).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IJLbsfMTDXxXX0Ql_vDdngtJaqOQ1XyV

I have one USB3.0 controller and another 2.0, both built-in the MB chipset
not added card. Better effects have had with two cameras connected to 2.0
than to 3.0. Not very logical but fact.


W dniu czwartek, 9 listopada 2017 17:13:03 UTC+1 użytkownik Marius
Liebenberg napisał:
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[Marius Liebenberg]

That is exactly the problem I have four ports and they are all blue. The device tree shows only one hub or controller.

I have both cameras connected now using OpenCv and they are working relatively well. At least two to three times faster than before. I also noticed that if I use OpenPnpCapture the whole system comes to a grinding halt. I have to wait several minutes for parameter updates to take place I suspect that there might be a problem there that was not seen before.

 .

[Marek T.]

First you must get what Jason and Niels recommended to you - mjpeg, and use it instead of YUV2.
I would recommend whole the system downgrade... W10 is worth *************** :-).

Another thing what I don't like in your PC is RAM capacity. True, Windows will eat so much RAM as you give him. But I have 8GB and system with Java running takes 2.5-3GB of available 8GB, W7-64. It let to guess that if you have 2GB it's really small, specially as (another guessing) higher WIN probably like to eat still more RAM than older.

[Marius]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 19:27:45 +0200, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

First you must get what Jason and Niels recommended to you - mjpeg, and use it instead of YUV2.
I would recommend whole the system downgrade... W10 is worth *************** :-).

I have upgraded W10 and still no mpeg. I see that on my laptop the mpeg is also no longer available since it last tested on the laptop a week ago.

Another thing what I don't like in your PC is RAM capacity. True, Windows will eat so much RAM as you give him. But I have 8GB and system with Java running takes 2.5-3GB of available 8GB, W7-64. It let to guess that if you have 2GB it's really small, specially as (another guessing) higher WIN probably like to eat still more RAM than older.

This might be a problem. I will get more ram

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[Marek T.]

What camera type you have, is it ELP or some web?
Find some machine with old good W7 and check if mjpeg available or not.
I get thrills when see W10, maybe if I play more with it I'd find it as good (like my son) but have no nerves enough.

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

Hi Marius,

What is the USB camera driver version reported by Win10?

Regards,
Niels.

[Marius Liebenberg]

The cameras are Microsoft LifeCam HD-3000

[Marius Liebenberg]

I am just going out to see a customer. I will start up the PC when I get back and then report.

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

On 10-11-2017 15:02, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> The cameras are Microsoft LifeCam HD-3000

Ah, that explains everything! They use a custom microsoft driver.
Unfortunately, you have to roll back the driver version to get the MJPEG
back.

Regards,
Niels.

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Niels
Sorry I took long to report back.
The version is 5.20.102.0 dated 2016/01/07

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 3:58:52 PM UTC+2, Niels PA1DSP wrote:

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Niels
I uninstalled and rolled back to 10.0.14393.0

Still no mpeg support but I do see multiple entries of 1280x720 but all show YUY2.

[Marek T.]

MS makes only strange things that hard to understand. So maybe they decided to remove mjpeg from the firmware at all? That's why you should find computer without W10 and be sure of something...

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

On 12-11-2017 11:07, Marek T. wrote:
> MS makes only strange things that hard to understand. So maybe they decided to remove mjpeg from the firmware at all? That's why you should find computer without W10 and be sure of something...
>

Hi Marius, Marek,

True, MS did remove support from the driver. A very poor decision
indeed. The camera does support a generic UVC interface but that isn't
used on Win10.
I had MJPEG + MS LifeCam working on Win10. Let me check the driver
version and get back.

Regards,
Niels.

[n.a.m...@gmail.com]

Hi Marius,

This is the driver I am currently using:



That's the driver for the 'imaging device' of the composit USB device.

The openpnp capture lib reports the following capabilities:

ID 0 -> Microsoft® LifeCam HD-3000
Unique:  Microsoft┬« LifeCam HD-3000 \\?\usb#vid_045e&pid_0810&mi_00#6&340c1d2&0&0000#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\global
  Number of formats: 23
  Format ID 0: 640 x 480 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 1: 1280 x 720 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 2: 960 x 544 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 3: 800 x 448 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 4: 640 x 360 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 5: 424 x 240 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 6: 352 x 288 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 7: 320 x 240 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 8: 800 x 600 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 9: 176 x 144 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 10: 160 x 120 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 11: 1280 x 800 pixels  FOURCC=YUY2
  Format ID 12: 640 x 480 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 13: 1280 x 720 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 14: 960 x 544 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 15: 800 x 448 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 16: 640 x 360 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 17: 800 x 600 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 18: 416 x 240 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 19: 352 x 288 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 20: 176 x 144 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 21: 320 x 240 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG
  Format ID 22: 160 x 120 pixels  FOURCC=MJPG

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Niels.

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[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Niels

My driver is this:

I have many choices of format in the drop down. Many more than on your list but stil no mpeg. I picked a 1280x720 lower down in the list. It shows YUY2 but the same option was available further up. Just the frame rate was not the same. Could it be that the options are not displayed correctly. I have team viewer if you want at look at the options a bit later?