someone want test the nozzleCalibration jar ?

[phon...@gmail.com]

someone want test the nozzleCalibration jar ?

[Marek T.]

Sure Cri I want :-). But next Thu only when come back to city. If it's not too late send me file or link to the private mail that you know pls.
However, it's so nice option that I'll be surprised if many others not want to test it before :-).

[phon...@gmail.com]

Sorry, no shared head support.

[Sebastian Pichelhofer]

What exactly is it?

Regards Sebastian 

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 18:11 , <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

someone want test the nozzleCalibration jar ?

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[Marek T.]

I know but can test on one head.
Finally, when tests finished succesful I hope you'll publish the mods so I'll add motors sharing on my own.

[Marek T.]

What are you asking for Seb? Calibration or head sharing?

[Cri S]

It is just that you can place passives with just top vision or without
vision at all and it
takes nozzle runout in consideration.

2018-06-13 19:37 GMT+02:00, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com>:
> What are you asking for Seb? Calibration or head sharing?
>

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[Marek T.]

Hi Cri,
How do the testings run?

[Cri S]

As testers have giving up calibrating the camera position, actually no
one externally have tested it. The software require that this is
calibrated.
Uplooking cam position calibration is a bit more work required as for
downlooking cam.

2018-06-18 17:33 GMT+02:00, Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Cri,
> How do the testings run?
>

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[ma...@makr.zone]

I don't know if and when I will find time (no promises), but I have a badly banged up nozzle tip holder. The replacement is here, but I haven't mounted it yet. Lucky for your testing.

It is black on black shade Samsung CP40 so it would probably be "worst case" visually. That's good to see if it really works. :)=

Do you have a github branch?

If I go into testing that, I want to be able to look into the source and see what is happening and be able to debug and trace and twist stuff quickly.

_Mark

[ma...@makr.zone]

Afterthought:

Would it help to send nozzle tip bottom images first so you could try develop a pipeline that works for these nozzles too?

Would sending the smallest and the largest tip suffice or do you need all 6?

Its these:

https://www.liteplacer.com/shop20/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=63

_Mark

[ma...@makr.zone]

Cri S

the more I think about it:

As testers have giving up calibrating the camera position, actually no
one externally have tested it. The software require that this is
calibrated.
Uplooking cam position calibration is a bit more work required as for
downlooking cam.

These difficulties bring me back to another post:

If you could add the option to calibrate with such a common reference ("ring") this would be solved.

_Mark

[Cri S]

Usually the default pipeline works.
I have seen issues when there are dust on the nozzle and in this case
inverse threshold
and FindContours works better then simpleBlob detector because in this
case simpleBlob
don't recognize the nozzle hole as circle, because of the convex
contours deriving from
dust hairs. It depends how clean or dirty you'r environment is.
The juki 500 nozzle as example need different pipeline as it have two
holes instead of one.
If the optical lens alignment error is big from you uplooking camera,
you have problems
to detect the black hole, in this case you need advanced stages or
script to detect it.
Generally calibrating bigger nozzles make only sense if you don't use
prerotate settings
for increased cph.

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[Cri S]

If you have lab grad C(s) objectives yes, otherwise forget this
illusionistic drawing.
On M12 or C(S) surveliance grade objectives/cameras
you never can calibrate it this way. I
I have written to you how it need to be calibrated.

[Cri S]

Mike Menci have this setup/calibration jig.
You can ask him to take a image of the uplooking camera and
downlooking camera at
uplooking camera coordinates and then overimpose the two images.
I think the offset is rather big.

[Mike Menci]

Hello 

here is what I see with both cameras looking at each other:

- see first attachment - Two Cameras

Than I place calibration ruler (attached picture) on top of Up camera opening and two views should be matching at center!!

Only this way you can confirm that both cameras are aligned to the same point -cross at"0" level.!! 
( My First camera I used was endoscope and it was 5mm off !! ) 

Mike  

[Brynn Rogers]

It seems too obvious that the nozzle flange and maybe even nozzle could be painted white to provide a better backdrop for an upward looking camera.  Or maybe a neutral grey.

Certainly I am not the first to think of it, so what am I missing?    Wouldn't a %50 grey or a white be better [for the image and image processing] than the typical black?    Isn't painting the nozzles easy?

[Mike Menci]

Hello Rogers, 

I do not think this would help - part covers the nozzle !

[Mike Menci]

Adding a washer to form a circle might help to find center? 

See picture enclosed. 

But I am not an expert for vision - Cri might comment on this!

Mike

[Mike Menci]

On Wednesday, 13 June 2018 18:11:30 UTC+2, phon...@gmail.com wrote:

[ma...@makr.zone]

Won't the washer mess up part recognition?

I don't think Juki nozzles are any problem. Nice green-screen already there. And I guess that's not an accident. 

It's the black in black Samsung CP40 nozzle tips (Liteplacer Kit) that are a challenge, I guess.    

NOTE this is just an odd image from my ImageWriteDebug folder. It is not centred and lighting may have changed since.

However if there is a vision stage that statistically finds the point with the best concentricity then even a noisy blurry dark image will suffice with all types of nozzles.

Something like this, but in OpenCV (pseudo code):

best_err = +INF

for each x in search_rect.w
  for each y in search_rect.h
    // we have a point candidate
    err = 0

    for each r in [1..search_r]
      // calc the variance in luminance around this concentric circle
      // see   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_for_calculating_variance#Na%C3%AFve_algorithm

      s = 0
      s2 = 0
      n = 0
      for each a in [0 .. 2*PI] step PI/4/r

        l = luminance_pixel(x + cos(a)*r, y + sin(a)*r);
        s += l
        s2 += l*l
        n++
     
      // add this circle's variance to the total error
      err += (s2 - (s*s)/n)/n
   
    // we have the overall error in concentricity
    if err < best_err
      best_err = err
      best_x = x
      best_y = y

I'm sure if would nail it every time. :)

 

_Mark

[Cri S]

This is the default pipeline , i have just added the center cross and
updated the
threshold .

[Mark]

nice!

[M. Mencinger]

Cri

Is there a need to download this default Pipeline (somewhere ?? where?) or it will get loaded automatically?

mike

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 8:13 PM, Mark <ma...@makr.zone> wrote:

nice!

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[Cri S]

This is the default pipeline included into openpnp for nozzle calibration. The official source contains the 3 known bugs and because this it is not included as GUI element but still activable inside machine.xml

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[Cri S]

As interest, how do you setup up looking camera coordinates?

[Mike Menci]

Hi 

I set up the cameras first (than nozzle down and look at location - than I placed an aux fiducial -so I can have a look if up camera is centered to the nozzle by down-looking camera. So I can use down-looking Camera for confirming center of coordinates where Up-looking camera is. 

See enclosed two screenshots!

Mike

[SMdude]

Hi Cri S,

If you want to send me a link to the Jar file I might be able to give it a run this weekend. I haven't placed anything for ages!

Cheers!

[Cri S]

Using top camera to set location of bot camera is wrong.
You should at least use Nozzle and cetnter NozzleTip.

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[M. Mencinger]

Hello Cri, 

Yes "  Using top camera to set location of bot camera is wrong" 
I use Nozzle and cetnter NozzleTip FIRST and than all the rest! 

Mike

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

Using top camera to set location of bot camera is wrong.
You should at least use Nozzle and cetnter NozzleTip.


2018-06-22 4:36 GMT+02:00, SMdude <spiteri...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Cri S,
>
> If you want to send me a link to the Jar file I might be able to give it a
> run this weekend. I haven't placed anything for ages!
>
> Cheers!
>
>
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[ma...@makr.zone]

Cri S

can you provide the source code? Patch or branch etc.?

_Mark

[phon...@gmail.com]

Sorry, no source. The source is inside the official openpnp github., i have just limited the functionality and changed some setting in order to

avoid bugs, without removing the bugs. Without knowing the bugs and side effects of the orginal code, it's difficult to change source code without

tapping into some bugs or side effect. Testing is over and results are good.

Hovewer if you have pickup problems inside feeders, i recommend the picking parts at angle 0 patch instead of the nozzle tip calibration.

 

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Cri,

If you are going to distribute jars, please also distribute the changes that make up the jar. Being an open source project, distributing closed binaries goes against the spirit of the project, and the discussion group.

Thanks,

Jason

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[Cri S]

Il 26/giu/2018 04:30 "Jason von Nieda" <ja...@vonnieda.org> ha scritto:
>
> Hi Cri,
>
> If you are going to distribute jars, please also distribute the changes that make up the jar.

It is the same as for prerotate test. Some bug was present too,
but testing need to be made with supplied binary. I have no time to support modified testing cases where the reason of failure are some side effect of incompatible part of source code maybe necessary for particular machine.
As example the actual implementation of shared nozzle rotation is totally incompatible with nozzleTip calibration moves when using prerotate just to name one example.

Being an open source project, distributing closed binaries goes against the spirit of the project, and the discussion group.

I have no problem sharing the source code with testers after it have tested the supplied binary jar. At the same time I decline testers, that first want the source code because there need souce changes before testing. Please think twice before issuing such sentence.

What have emerged from test is that align interface with canhandle need a rewrite in order this code is usable.

>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:30 AM <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, no source. The source is inside the official openpnp github., i have just limited the functionality and changed some setting in order to
>> avoid bugs, without removing the bugs. Without knowing the bugs and side effects of the orginal code, it's difficult to change source code without
>> tapping into some bugs or side effect. Testing is over and results are good.
>>
>> Hovewer if you have pickup problems inside feeders, i recommend the picking parts at angle 0 patch instead of the nozzle tip calibration.
>>  
>>
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Le

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Cri,

Under the terms of the OpenPnP License you are required to provide source code when distributing binaries of the project. You don't have to support it, of course, but you must make the source available. You can review the license terms at https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/blob/develop/LICENSE.txt.

Thanks,

Jason

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[Cri S]

I know the licence terms, and i'm not obligated to distribute the
source without
having distributed the binary. The therms states:
You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code.
And section 6 list the modes how this source must be distributed
depending on the distribution of the binary itself.

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[Marek T.]

It would be really a huge lost if you kill each other :-).

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi folks,

I wanted to let you know I have banned Cri from the OpenPnP project. This ban applies to:

* This discussion group.

* The OpenPnP Github Organization.

* The #openpnp IRC channel.

The reason for this ban is the above license violation. The GPLv3 clearly lays out the terms under which the software can be used, and distributing binaries while refusing to release the code for those binaries is a clear violation. I politely asked Cri to provide the source, and he refused.

Thanks,

Jason

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[SMdude]

Hi Jason,

Could you please reconsider this? I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here.

Sure, Cri has sent me a binary and if I asked him for the source, he would provide it for me. I don't have the time nor coding ability to use it.

It is not like he has put the binary out there for anyone to download, it has been shared privately for the purpose of testing and bug fixes and if/when it has been proven to work then he can work towards what needs to be done to merge it into the code base.

Look at prerotate, it was a great idea, but the original implementation was useless.

Cri and I worked together fixing it up and making it something that just works and it does just that now thanks to the coding work he and others put in.

The nozzle calibration is not quite right yet and things still need to be tweaked a little, so I would not currently recommend that people try this yet.

Cheers

[ma...@makr.zone]

I disagree SMdude.

I asked Cri S twice for the source. He wouldn't provide it. Work-in-progress is no valid justification for that. Also Jason asked him politely, Cri S had every chance to relent, twice. I'm very glad Jason did not let it slide.

The Open Source Spirit needs protecting!I admire Jason for invoking the Spirit in the first place with this his great project and for now being resolute about its defence.

_Mark

[SMdude]

With all due respect, he privately shared the binary, for the purpose of testing.

As per the license, he only needs to provide the source to those he has distributed the binary to. (if I am wrong, please point me to where in the GPL it says otherwise)

He said earlier in this thread that if asked by one of the testers that he would provide the source.

Marek, he didn't want to provide it to you specifically because your machine is a bit different and requires changes to the source before it would just work with your machine and until it is at the point where it just works with the standard implementation, he didn't want to have extra headaches and potentially introduce bugs to your machine.

Had he just send me an email and said "Hey Mick, I have modified openpnp to try and get nozzle calibration working would you like to test it?" Nobody would know about it and  then none of this nonsense would be happening now. And then at some point there might have been a pull request, job done....

[Marek T.]

This is what I've afraid for :-(. Fatal news and decission.

Sure Jason, you are a host and you rule here of course but I think that Michael (SMdude) is right.
Cri didn't put the jar here but shared it privately, is this really prohibited by the terms?
Second, he didn't tell he don't share the source after it's cleared due to tests passing.
Third, I think we can understand why he didn't want to share the source on the moment. Probably it was made so dirty unclear that for nothing to anybody on the moment, then if he deny explanations many would tell him an asshole...
Fourth, it's project killing. You must admit that Cri's participation in Openpnp project is really huge (without details, but without mentioned prerotate I don't imagine the soft using at all). Would you have a time to do all he made on your own? Generally none like him here with so advanced and support for hundred non-typical problems, and ultimately quick.

Yes, also pls reconsider it yet and try understand...

Br
Marek

[ma...@makr.zone]

Cri S wrote:

 

I have no problem sharing the source code with testers after it have tested the supplied binary jar. At the same time I decline testers, that first want the source code because there need souce changes before testing. Please think twice before issuing such sentence.

So he excludes all of those that want the source up front and then afterwards says he would gladly share the source with those that he gave the binary to?

Don't you see this is a recipe to circumvent the GPL?

Note the "allegation" that I need "source changes before testing" is pure invention. I explained very clearly why I wanted the source:

 

If I go into testing that, I want to be able to look into the source and see what is happening and be able to debug and trace and twist stuff quickly.

This is IMHO how an Open Source project works and prospers.

_Mark

[SMdude]

It seems I got Mark and Marek mixed up, my apologies!

[Marek T.]

Cri is maybe a bit specific guy:-). Maybe sometimes not easy to understand what he exactly has on his mind. But I know that without his help to modify the project, my specific machine wouldn't work at all. Without his job an actual project would be very far from great it is now.
So yes Mark, Let's forget all his great efforts due to blind rules keeping and misunderstanding probably.

Btw. If you look into the NozzleRefference code you will see that calibration is nothing new and still there but buggy and to improve. If you haven't seen it you probably don't do anything with Cri's source if got it.

Anyways, it's Jason's decission not ours.

[Marek T.]

How dare you :-). But seriously I haven't noticed it :-).
It seems I think same like you in this case...

[ma...@makr.zone]

So yes Mark, Let's forget all his great efforts due to blind rules keeping and misunderstanding probably.

My intention is to defend Jason in his decision, not lest as I feel somewhat responsible to have indirectly triggered it.

Jason's reasons are valid and I stand behind him if it is his feeling that Open Source principles must be upheld at the beginnings not when they have already half eroded away.

If he wants to reconsider I have no problems whatsoever. We certainly all learn a lot today. I sincerely hope Cri S does too.

And yes "temperaments" sometimes get into the way of all of us and may explain a lot.

_Mark

[Marek T.]

My intention is to think about future, appreciate the past, and forget about "momentary lapse of reason" - from every sides probably :-).

[Mike Menci]

Hello, 

I have received all the files from Cri and I started testing for Cri. It is up to Cri to release whatever he wants and when he wants as he is after his code. 

 Cri is contributor (as far as I know) to this Open PnP project and as contributor he is not in the same position (with respect to licence therms) as you are Jason.

   I would not release my work in progress (which is not confirmed by tests) as well beforehand and Cri has stated clearly he will release it after testing.....   

So lets forget about all this nonsense and look forward for the benefits of the Open PnP project.

Mike 

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi folks,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. This is a miserable situation and I do appreciate the civil discussion.

First, I want to apologize. It is possible that the GPL allows for the situation that resulted in this ban. At the least, it appears to be a grey area. I feel that https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic can be interpreted in two different ways. So, with that, I admit my demand may have been unjustified. I'm sorry for that.

Second, I will offer that Cri can email me one link which I will post to the mailing list so that others who are interested can follow him. He has often mentioned that he wants to distribute his own version of OpenPnP. I wholeheartedly support this. He still has read access to the source code, wiki, mailing list, repositories, Github, etc. He can easily create his own OpenPnP community and I will happily link to it.

Finally, my decision to ban Cri based on the GPL was "the straw that broke the camel's back". I started OpenPnP over 7 years ago. Cri has been involved with OpenPnP for approximately 4 years. In that time he has repeatedly been rude, combative, and disrespectful to me. He has refused to follow project standards and has wasted hundreds of hours of my time with untested, uncompiled, and broken code. No other user or contributor has acted this way. I have acted with respect and professionalism in every single interaction I have had with him, as I have with every user and contributor of this project, and my thousands of public interactions reflect this.

It was a long time coming, and it has been a decision I have deliberated on, at this point, for years. I will not reverse my decision.

Thanks,

Jason

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[SMdude]

Hi Jason,

To be fair, Cri S has also spent a lot of time helping individual users set up pipelines, their machines, scripting, ideas, reality!

As far as I know his machine isn't a standard (plug and play)openpnp machine, so when he makes changes, it can be hard for him to test in the standard form, hence why he had asked for testers. Which in doing so hopefully stops the "untested, uncompiled, broken code" or at least reduces problems to a minimum.

He spends lots of time using openpnp, so naturally will find more problems with it than the average user, which will cause you to spend time.

It's like the machinery operator who always finds problems with the machinery he operates.

Is it because he is a bad operator, or is it because he is very astute, and not much slips past him?

Many managers would call this operator a bad operator, but forget that he spends more time than anyone using said machinery. It is inevitable that things will break and he who uses it most will be the one to find the faults.

I don't believe that he has ever had ill intent in any of the times he has wasted your time, I think that he wants the same thing as all of us and that is that the best opensource pick and place software gets even better!

As for being rude, sometimes things become lost in translation and text, as you can't always see the emotion that should accompany the text. Also, different countries have different cultures, with different ways of interacting. Italians often like to spend the first 10 minutes of a conversation loudly yelling insults at each other before finally getting down to business! (if any Italians are offended by that, then it does not apply to you!) Just remember also that we all come from different walks of life and have different skill sets, some people are really good at some things, but may lack good people skills. It is just the way they are.

I know that when someone rubs you up the wrong way, it can be very hard to take a liking to them again.

However, I have found that one can learn a lot from someone who breaks ones balls! I know I have. It can actually be really helpful.

I don't know how having a separate community would work. It kind of seems counterproductive to have 2 main branches and would create an us and them kind of division.

But after all it is your project, so at the end of the day, the decision is yours and it seems it is already made.

Cheers, Mick

[Marek T.]

Great told Mick, I wouldn't do it better!

Can only add:
- Cri is in Europe so no timezone reason delay with his great support.
- Being kind we can also rate by the acts not the words... I can't to count how many helpful priv mails got from him no matter in the days, nights or weekends, with incredible patience for my programistic limited (telling delicate :-)) acknowledge.
- Pipelines, scripts support: let's be honest, on the moment I think it's stopped in practice.

br
Marek

[Marek T.]

Was not my intention to let feel to anybody that I think ONLY Cri's advises as valuable here. Of course not and sorry if someone could think like that (if my opinion can be important to anybody at all 🙂).
Had only on my mind that probably 95% of pipeline helpings here was from him. So in this reality, missing it will mean this kind of support has stopped.

br
Marek

[Mike Menci]

Hello Jason, 

- If your apology is sincere, when you say your decision was unjustified - how can you at the end say you will not revert your decision?  

- You say Cri has wasted a lot of your time because of untested work,etc ... now when he did just this - testing his work before giving it out You make an issue out of it? 

Jason you are not fair to people who contribute to this Open PnP, there are not so many out there willing to spend so much time to help others as Cri is. There are a lot more people out there reading this Open PnP & keeping their work for them self and not willing to help others. This is a public place where we need to forgive. If Cri did some wrong doing he did not do it on purpose to waste your time but to the best of his knowledge to help this Open PnP- YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS.  

I think its to late now - You Jason will not get Cri beck - the damage was done. 

I feel sorry for Cri, We All lost a fried and helping hand....

Mike

[Jt Whissel]

 I think there is a language barrier problem here. Be careful about banning people that are helpful, I have seen it happen on other open source projects and it was the reason for their demise.

P.S Did anyone happen to get their source code? I really need nozzle calibration. I am already balls deep into fixing TinyG latest firmware to work with OpenPnp with automatic pick and place height sensing on liteplacers. I don't want to have to write nozzle calibration too. 

P.S.S Sorry but GPL is gross and so restrictive, plus it spreads like cancer. I normally don't contribute to projects that have GPL because it's so bad. I make acceptions when I need to obviously. 

[Marek T.]

I've only got a jar and set of script files required to test it. Tell me if you want it. I don't think that Cri can have anything against to share it, I guess that Jason too if not published here...
Some part of the code (hard to to tell how much completed) is still in official version but removed from UI and somehow blocked probably.
You must remember that Cri's job was experimental about this and still with some bugs - as understood from his explanation.

[ma...@makr.zone]

Jason was clear about two things:

First, he has stated other reasons far beyond and far more significant than the single incident in this thread:

Finally, my decision to ban Cri based on the GPL was "the straw that broke the camel's back". I started OpenPnP over 7 years ago. Cri has been involved with OpenPnP for approximately 4 years. In that time he has repeatedly been rude, combative, and disrespectful to me. He has refused to follow project standards and has wasted hundreds of hours of my time with untested, uncompiled, and broken code. No other user or contributor has acted this way. I have acted with respect and professionalism in every single interaction I have had with him, as I have with every user and contributor of this project, and my thousands of public interactions reflect this.

It was a long time coming, and it has been a decision I have deliberated on, at this point, for years. ...

The short time I'm here, I already got the treatment myself and despite all efforts to explain in detail, made my own lengthy and tiresome experience, while all I wanted was to help. While Cri S can be very generous to help the needy, he clearly has a problem with people who know at times what they are doing and won't defer to His Great Wisdom. 

Second, despite all that, Jason will embrace him setting up an OpenPNP community of his own:

Second, I will offer that Cri can email me one link which I will post to the mailing list so that others who are interested can follow him. He has often mentioned that he wants to distribute his own version of OpenPnP. I wholeheartedly support this. He still has read access to the source code, wiki, mailing list, repositories, Github, etc. He can easily create his own OpenPnP community and I will happily link to it.

So, is it really too much asked of you guys to subscribe to two Google Groups?

The very nature of the GPL will not only allow him to set that second community up, it will also guarantee him that he can sustain close ties to the origin in the future, so his investment will not be a cul-de-sac. Thanks to git it will be possible to very easily exchange cherry picked code back and forth between the forks, should any of the two sides wish to do that. Amazing how well this works. To initially set it up, it requires a few clicks and he is back in "business".

So relax. Breathe. And stop pestering Jason. For it would send a completely wrong signal if he were to reverse his decision now. It would practically embrace such behaviour and give merit to comments like GPL being "gross and so restrictive, plus it spreads like cancer..."

Distance can be a good thing for both sides. Let things cool down now.

_Mark

[Marek T.]

Mike, It's not pestering. Everybody has rights to express his opinion and it doesn't have to be an opinion in agree with your opinion. It's not bad to let Jason to know different points of view on this case and his decision, what he admitted above.

It's not problem to click into two communities. But the splitting is not only good, the projects will live with other lives and will be developed not necessary to be compatible each other. Then many good options will appear in one version but missing in the second.

Completely another story is if Cri is willing to come back here at all. It's rather clear that we had much more profits having him here than otherwise.

For Jason it seems be now matter of honor to don't change the mind not matter of signals only. However, we have to admit that we haven't seen what exactly was happening in their private relations through these years...

Anyways, finally, from other reasons than yours but I'm agree with you - there's no point o beat about the bush any more, the shot is done :-(.

[Marek T.]

Mark not Mike, sorry for mistake.