Update on the CHMT36VA

[Romain Fontaine]

Hello Jason and the OpenPnP community!

I just read the page on supporting the CharmHigh CHMT36VA. https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/CharmHigh-CHMT36VA

What's the status?

Anyone knows what MCU the machine is based on, and if it would be possible to reflash it with FLOSS and use the standard GcodeDriver?

[Jason von Nieda]

See this thread for my updates on the progress: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openpnp/pHEsz118180/v4zrZLSwBAAJ

Right now we have the machine moving but can't figure out how to rotate the nozzles. There doesn't seem to be a command for it. We have the protocol fully reverse engineered and I'll be posting an update about that later this evening.

The MCU is a STM32F407ZET6. It's possible we could flash new firmware, but we'd probably have to do significant hacking on any existing motion controller, or write a new one from scratch.

Jason

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Jason

A possible last chance saloon might be 

a small dedicated control board to handle rotating the heads and maybe mop up any other functions that may benefit from control

in that way.

It would be pretty easy to so and if that the only stumbling block then its no big deal ?

Peter

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Peter,

Yep, that's a good idea and would be a good option if we get to the point where hardware is required. I hadn't considered just keeping X/Y on the existing controller and re-routing C. My hope is still to do this without hardware changes, though, as that sort of defeats the purpose of having an off the shelf machine. Right now I'm focusing on maybe replacing the firmware.

Jason

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/627054eb-23d2-458c-9986-c30a0bf9ef15%40googlegroups.com.

[Mike Harrison]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 10:48:59 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi Peter,
>
>Yep, that's a good idea and would be a good option if we get to the point
>where hardware is required. I hadn't considered just keeping X/Y on the
>existing controller and re-routing C. My hope is still to do this without
>hardware changes, though, as that sort of defeats the purpose of having an
>off the shelf machine. Right now I'm focusing on maybe replacing the
>firmware.

If you can get hold of the original firmware image, maybe just patch it to add C control while
maintaining backwards compatibility?
(or disassemble it if you've not already - shouldn't be hard to find commands that haven't been
discovered yet)

Silly question but have you asked the manufacturer ? Maybe if you show that you already have made
significant progress that may be helpful.

[Mark]

Hi Jason

 

I've quickly looked at the documentation you already have on the Wiki and links.

 

What is the insight about these parameters?

 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mVowA6ZmbxwnvEy32Ap_YYBsWuUACl5wKZB5wjBqljY/edit#gid=1877136771

 

_Mark

 

 

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Mark,

Those are angles for the Z axis, not the rotation axes. Those are system configuration parameters that tell the machine the angle to move Z to put the nozzle "down". The translation is:

Stick head 1 swing angle

Stick head 2 swing angle

Jason

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[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Mike,

Yea, we're working through various options with the firmware now. The chip is protected, so we can't extract the firmware, but I found an image on the USB stick that came with the machine that appears to be at least some version of the firmware. It was encrypted, but we cracked that yesterday so now we're starting to look at it.

"We", by the way, are people on the SparkFun Desktop PnP List which is where the bulk of the reverse engineering effort is taking place: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/desktop-pick-and-place

I haven't asked the manufacturer yet. I'm saving that for last since I think it's likely that when I show my hand I'll lose their support of the machine :)

Jason

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[Marek T.]

Hi Jason,

I'm not sure if it is good idea but - I have a partner in Shenzhen with whom we cooperate for last 15 years. Actualy he's more like friend than provider. Right our connection still bases on money we make together but he made many favours for me completely for free. So it is not the problem and I could ask him to make some call to this "factory" to talk like Chinese-to-Chinese. Let me know if you have an idea how to use him without some extreme disturbing.

br

Marek

[Mark]

>Hi Mark,

>Those are angles for the Z axis, not the rotation axes. Those are system configuration parameters that tell the machine the angle to move Z to put the nozzle "down".

 

Ah I see. Thanks.

 

From:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openpnp/pHEsz118180/h9plFiy9BgAJ

> The machine is semi-automatic. In normal usage, the OEM software downloads the job to the machine and then tells the machine to go.  After that, the machine only really needs the > software to handle computer vision operations. Everything else is handled internally.

 

I guess this one is an entry of the job it downloads to the machine, right?

 

 

Not otherwise exposed. I see.

 

_Mark

 

[Jason von Nieda]

No, that's the result of the bottom vision operation.

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure what message the job is sent as. I need to go back and check the dumps. I haven't spent too much time looking at the job side.

Jason

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[Mark]

> I haven't asked the manufacturer yet. I'm saving that for last since I think it's likely that when I show my hand I'll lose their support of the machine :)

 

Are you sure you’re not underestimating the value of your work, the community momentum and thus the market significance of OpenPNP endorsement?

 

Those guys would be very daft not to help you … slap the label “OpenPNP compatible” on their machines … and see their sales rise! You should actually have asked for a free machine.

 

With official support by the manufacturer, chances are improved that the “API” would remain stable over time and future changes in the controller would either be abstracted or communicated.

 

Also I think there is much condescending, prejudiced cliché thinking around about “how all Chinese are”. I feel one should avoid that.

 

It may help to look back in history and read about how “Made in …” was born:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137340542_1

 

_Mark

 

 

[Jason von Nieda]

I'm basing this entirely on previous experience. OpenPnP members, including myself, have asked 3 different manufacturers for info and none have been willing. Those, for the record, were QiHe, Neoden, and SmallSMT. I don't see any reason CharmHigh would be different. 

CharmHigh went to great lengths to make this hard. The protocol is encrypted using a proprietary algorithm, and requires a per customer LICENSE.smt file to operate a machine. The firmware is encrypted with yet another algorithm. Protection bits are locked on the chip, nothing is documented. It looks to me like they quite specifically did not want people interoperating with their machines.

That is not to say that they wouldn't be open to the idea, but I believe the best course of action is to try other avenues first and use that as a backup. If I exhaust the other options, I'll certainly ask them for help, but for the time being I'd prefer to get as far as I can before starting that discussion. As I said, I believe there is a chance that they won't want to support my purchase any longer once it's clear I am trying to reverse engineer their protocol.

This has nothing to do with them being a Chinese company - I bear no such prejudice - but because it's been my experience that companies don't like that sort of thing.

Jason

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[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Marek,

Thank you for your offer! As I mentioned to Mark, I want to exhaust other options first, but if I get to that point I will definitely reach out about this. Thank you!

Jason

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[Mark]

> I'm basing this entirely on previous experience. OpenPnP members, including myself, have asked 3 different manufacturers for info and none have been willing. Those, for the record, were QiHe, Neoden, and SmallSMT. I don't see any reason CharmHigh would be different. 

 

Thanks for the clarification. Lost opportunities on their part - big time.

 

_Mark

[Marek T.]

I think your way of thinking and plan are really sensual. So just let me know if you need my "support" about it.

It's interresting for me to you could be finished with this as faster as better - and then continue again with different Openpnp important improvements (I hope) :-) :-) :-)

But omitting above digression, I realize that good argument in talking with Chineses could be to convince them that every Chinese machines have the same common problem/reason why people here don't like them - shity software. And that giving us their protocol is not any grace for us but otherwise - big chance for them (!) to be better than their competitors being not compatible with Openpnp. And then the chance to sell much more machines than others. Anyway, you probably tried this way already...

br

Marek

[Mike Harrison]

>But omitting above digression, I realize that good argument in talking with
>Chineses could be to convince them that every Chinese machines have the
>same common problem/reason why people here don't like them - shity
>software. And that giving us their protocol is not any grace for us but
>otherwise - big chance for them (!) to be better than their competitors
>being not compatible with Openpnp.

I think this underestimates the cultural issue of "Face" - The Chinese do not like being told they
are doing something wrong, and IMO are unlikely to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with
their software.

> And then the chance to sell much more
>machines than others.

That is something that may be an easier sell, however the difficulty is convincing them that it
would sell more machines. They would also be concerned about supporting other software.
The Chinese don't really "get" open source - it has taken a huge effort to get just one Chinese 3D
printer maker (Creality) to acknowledge their responsibilities when using open source in their
products.

Unless you are offering to buy their machines without software to resell and support them yourself I
can't see them taking any interest. That's not to say they may not be forthcoming with some
information, however as soon as they agree to document anything it makes it harder for them to make
changes in future, so they may see no benefit. It could be that all the software is written by one
person and there simply isn't any documentation, let alone anything in English.

However if it's the case that they are buying in or subcontracting their software, then it's
possible they may have some interest in software they don't have to pay for, though it probably
needs to have Chinese language support.

[Marek T.]

Mike, I will not talk with them directly and I trust that my Chinese colleague knows how to talk with other Chinese having best ackonwledge about their mentality.

So I completely don't care what they like or not.

We don't know if the software is made by Charmigh or they only produce the hardware but buy the licensed copies of soft from some other company.

If above it is - they can even don't know how the protocol looks like because could be made by someone really not interrested to share with it (mentioned software author).

We even cannot be sure that Charmhigh is the factory at all or the dealer only - but this I will ask my friend to try to check it, he was good in that investigations many times.

- So we know just nothing, so also don't know what is the best talking way. But I trust he will know when needed to use him.

br

Marek

[John Plocher]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:10 PM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

We don't know if the software is made by Charmigh or they only produce the hardware but buy the licensed copies of soft from some other company.

Reviving this old thread because I'm a month into a service call with Charmhigh about my CHMT48 - and getting frustrated with all the timezone and language and sales-engineer-speak ... 

(warning, lots of wishy washy "I believe" qualifiers below because I have not taken my machine apart and probed deep enough to say for sure...)

From what I can tell, they assemble machines out of parts that they either manufacture themselves or source from others.  The design of the machine isn't much different from all the other "drag feeder 1 or 2 head systems" out there, which leads me to believe that the machine controller guts are produced by someone else who sells to all the usual suspects.

The -48 machine has an embedded linux system that talks to another embedded machine controller; the -36 uses an external Windows machine to talk to the embedded machine controller.

From what I've seen, the competition in China for building these low end machines is so great, the barrier to entry so low, and the IP protections so non-existent, that these licenses and obsfucations are simply the machine controller developer's way of protecting their investment.  Out of my conversations with people at Charmhigh (email, skype, videos...), I don't get the impression that Charmhigh has the expertise to design and code a system controller that does all the placement heavy lifting.  This machine controller does much of what OpenPNP does - it takes a planner-complete job and places it; at a high level, the Linux/Windows GUI simply passes a DPV file to the machine controller and the machine controller does all the stepper motor and vacuum gymnastics it needs to place the job.

I believe the various "APIs" that Jason has found are simply the mechanics behind the DIAGNOSTICS and CALIBRATION windows in the Charmhigh GUI; I'm pretty sure they are not used real-time as part of a placement job's execution.

Having said all that, OpenPNP could easily (IMO) drive a CHMT simply by creating a DPV file and causing the machine controller to run it, though it is debatable whether anyone would consider it a success :-) . To go beyond that, I'm convinced that the machine controller will need to be replaced - say, with a smoothie or with new firmware - before OpenPNO can fully control the machine during board placement.

  -John

(semi-seriously, anyone in the California Bay Area want to pick up a 1 year old CHMT48 for a couple of grand?  It could make for a great OpenPNP re-wire project :-) :-) :-)