Re: [Open Manufacturing] Photovoltaic materials?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 07:42:45PM -0700, Poor Richard wrote:
> I'm interested in photovoltaic materials that could be manufactured in a
> non-capital-intensive process by cottage industry. (I'm not talking about
> assembling panels, but making the basic photovoltaic material: film,
> polymer, dye, coating, etc.) Can anyone give me any leads on small-scale
> manufacturing of pv materilas?

Would your interests include materials that are scarce/expensive and/or
toxic, or just abundant, nontoxic materials? Can you quantify how
much money spent would be a deal-breaker? What kind of equipment complexity
would be a deal-breaker?

Are you interested only in those processes and materials which produce
cells that are already available commercially, or are research materials and
processes allowed?

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

Hi Richard,

I write and post links to articles on this printing photovoltaics on my openwetware page here: http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Giovanni_Lostumbo http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Giovanni_Lostumbo#References

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:42:45 PM UTC-4, Poor Richard wrote:

I'm interested in photovoltaic materials that could be manufactured in a non-capital-intensive process by cottage industry. (I'm not talking about assembling panels, but making the basic photovoltaic material: film, polymer, dye, coating, etc.) Can anyone give me any leads on small-scale manufacturing of pv materilas?

Thanks,

Poor Richard

[Vladimir Teplouhov]

2012/6/1, Poor Richard <poor.r...@gmail.com>:

> I'm interested in photovoltaic materials that could be manufactured in a
> non-capital-intensive process by cottage industry. (I'm not talking about
> assembling panels, but making the basic photovoltaic material: film,
> polymer, dye, coating, etc.) Can anyone give me any leads on small-scale
> manufacturing of pv materilas?

You can search for scholarly articles on "thin-film solar cell" Cd-Te, or CIS.
(Many articles have been at NREL, UDEL, etc.)

So the same old articles were about the use of copper oxide in the
photovoltaic, but the technology is not ready to meet.

Thin-film CdTe has long proven method, NREL had elements of this type
with the 1980s.

So the same except the AP-CVD deposition process CdTe there is a
method of chemical deposition from solution. The first panel, which
were widely available IMHO it was made by a chemical method.
(described in the NREL Technology and the line Ap-CVD process)

Vladimir
PS IMHO тонкопленочные технологии дешевле и в перспективе по мере
снижения цен обычные кремниевые панели врядли смогут с ними
конкурировать - слишком дорогой процесс производства, тонкопленочные
технологии напыления дешевле и более производительны.

PPS если есть интерес и достаточно много людей кому это интересно(или
финансирование - исследования в россии обойдуться дешевле), то можно
организовать открытый проект создания такой технологии производства.
(я думаю технология химического осаждения тонкопленочных покрытий из
раствора проще для домашнего производства т.к. не требует ни дорогих
материалов, ни сложного оборудования)

[Eugen Leitl]

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 06:15:52PM +0700, Vladimir Teplouhov wrote:
> 2012/6/1, Poor Richard <poor.r...@gmail.com>:
> > I'm interested in photovoltaic materials that could be manufactured in a
> > non-capital-intensive process by cottage industry. (I'm not talking about
> > assembling panels, but making the basic photovoltaic material: film,
> > polymer, dye, coating, etc.) Can anyone give me any leads on small-scale
> > manufacturing of pv materilas?

I think the important part is that we're looking at EROEI of 25:1
or better for the whole assembly over the entire projected lifetime.
Long-term, we should be aiming for 100:1, actually.

This is why I asked Mr. Saunders here whether he's only interested
in already commercially available solutions but also allows for
technologies that are promising, but not there yet.

E.g. http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/semiconductors/nanotechnology/solidstate-dyesensitized-solar-cell-matches-performance-of-grtzel-cell
would come to mind.

>
> You can search for scholarly articles on "thin-film solar cell" Cd-Te, or CIS.
> (Many articles have been at NREL, UDEL, etc.)
>
> So the same old articles were about the use of copper oxide in the
> photovoltaic, but the technology is not ready to meet.
>
>
> Thin-film CdTe has long proven method, NREL had elements of this type
> with the 1980s.
>
> So the same except the AP-CVD deposition process CdTe there is a
> method of chemical deposition from solution. The first panel, which
> were widely available IMHO it was made by a chemical method.
> (described in the NREL Technology and the line Ap-CVD process)
>
> Vladimir
> PS IMHO тонкопленочные технологии дешевле и в перспективе по мере
> снижения цен обычные кремниевые панели врядли смогут с ними
> конкурировать - слишком дорогой процесс производства, тонкопленочные
> технологии напыления дешевле и более производительны.
>
> PPS если есть интерес и достаточно много людей кому это интересно(или
> финансирование - исследования в россии обойдуться дешевле), то можно
> организовать открытый проект создания такой технологии производства.
> (я думаю технология химического осаждения тонкопленочных покрытий из
> раствора проще для домашнего производства т.к. не требует ни дорогих
> материалов, ни сложного оборудования)

Well, I can read that, and I agree, but why did you write that in Russian?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 08:14:40PM -0700, Poor Richard wrote:
> Eugen, thanks. Good questions.
>
> Workplace and environmental safety is a must. Cheap, abundant raw materials

That already restricts many options. E.g. it would exclude anhydrous hydrazine
as a solvent for semiconductor film deposition. It is perfectly feasible
to work with anhydrous hydrazine at home at small scale, provided you have a well-working
fume hood, wear adequate personal protection and are aware of the toxic/cancerogenic/explosive
properties of the substance.

> much preferred over expensive & scarce. Ultimate disposal/recycling issues

This will kill even more options. Neither CdTe nor CIGS would seem
to fit that envelope. You might want to look into CZTS and other
materials, see http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/369/1942/1840.full

> will also be considered up front.
>
> Equipment expense is more concern than complexity. Ideal would be < $US
> 100,000.

You can do a lot with that budget. Ideally you would deposit from
solution, or use e.g. quantum dot synthesis in liquid phase. You
might also want to look at organic semiconductors and dye-sensitized
titanium dioxide. Especially mixes of quantum dots, graphene and carbon
nanotube appear promising. Many materials suffer degradation in
presence of oxygen and water, and many degrade under solar irradiation.
So you might have to use dry and inert gas atmospheres and seal assemblies
very well.

> I am not in a position to do original scientific research, but I'm open to
> uncommercialized technology if it can be demonstrated,

I don't think we have the magic mix of cheap/easy/nontoxic/sustainable just
yet.

[Vladimir Teplouhov]

2012/6/1, Eugen Leitl <eu...@leitl.org>:

sorry, but I do not know English well enough to properly describe
complex thoughts, and automatic translators often distort the meaning.

Will this be a problem if these places I write in Russian?

Vladimir

---- (rus orig.)
sorry, но я не настолько хорошо знаю английский чтобы грамотно описать
сложные мысли, а автоматические переводчики часто искажают смысл.

Будет ли это проблемой, если такие места я буду писать на русском?

Vladimir

[Vladimir Teplouhov]

2012/6/2, Poor Richard <poor.r...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Vladimir,
>
> Thanks for the info. I'll see what I can find on those topics that doesn't
> require a subscription or fee for papers.
>
> Is UDEL University of Delaware?

may be ;)

http://www.google.ru/search?q=CdTe+udel

Я занимался этой темой несколько лет назад, это то что я помню по памяти,
диск с архивом старых ссылок у меня сейчас не подключен...

Если надо, то могу составить более свежий обзор статей, возможно что
за последнии годы появились какие-то новые статьи.

> I looked onsite at NREL about 15 years ago for DIY-level PV technology and
> found no leads I could follow.
>
> PPS if there is interest and enough people who are interested (or
>> finance - the study in Russia would cost less), we can
>> organize an open project to create a production technology.
>> (I think technology is chemical vapor deposition of thin film coatings
>> solution is easier for domestic production as does not require expensive
>> materials or sophisticated equipment)
>>
>
> I know my way around a machine shop and a lab, but I am not the guy to do
> science experiments without adult supervision. :-)

Я работал в R&D области и хорошо разбираюсь в технике и технологиях,
могу оценить перспективность технологий и выбрать наиболее удобные
варианты, но эти исследования все равно требуют расходов на
приобретение реактивов, приборов и т.п.

Как думаете, на сайтах вроде kickstarter com реально собрать хоть
какие-то суммы на ИССЛЕДОВАНИЯ, то есть если проект не может обещать
каких-то подарков и т.п.?

(Финансирования подобных работ от крупных корпораций ожидать не
приходиться - думаю они наоборот бы многое дали, чтобы у конкурентов
технологии с дешевым оборудованием не появились никогда ;) )

Vladimir

[Eugen Leitl]

On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 02:08:58PM +0700, Vladimir Teplouhov wrote:

> > Well, I can read that, and I agree, but why did you write that in Russian?
>
> sorry, but I do not know English well enough to properly describe
> complex thoughts, and automatic translators often distort the meaning.
>
> Will this be a problem if these places I write in Russian?

It's not a problem for me, but your audience will likely be small.

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

Richard,

If you would like, I was thinking of mirroring my user page onto a lab page, where it can be edited by anyone so additional links can be added. If you are interested in that, feel free to add links another OWW page, or this one: http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Giovanni_Lostumbo/Notebook/GNUPV/2011/06/16. The idea of the page is that it generally should increase in content, unless after a development stage where something won't be needed, such as indium-gallide minerals, which I have sort of already exlcuded from the idea. I generally post informational URL resources and take a modular RepRap 3D printer approach, suggesting that the printer could be developed and modified to accomodate any new ink from a yielded bioharvested strain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development It's still a very open ended idea at every stage of development, because I'm unsure if I want to develop self-polymerizing supramolecular thin films or amorphous and scattered, small soluble molecules on/as a "rougher" thin film. Any robust, efficient and green preparation method is sought. Though, like Eugene says, the magic mix of cheap/easy/nontoxic/sustainable might not be ready yet. The question is, how to systematically compartmentalize each manufacturing stage, from raw material resource generation to printing (cradle to cradle), so that somethings CAN be developed towards a similar maturation convergence for production.

On Friday, June 1, 2012 11:46:13 PM UTC-4, Poor Richard wrote:

Hi Giovanni,

Wow. That's an impressive and exciting wiki page, even if the "Project is currently vaporware."

My bio/chem/phy comprehension is at undergrad level, so I doubt if I can contribute much to the project, but it is clear you are looking for the same kind of solution I am looking for. If you can think of any way for me to participate other than by asking dumb questions, please let me know.

Meanwhile please consider me a fan.

PR

[Vladimir Teplouhov]

2012/6/1, Giovanni Lostumbo <giovanni...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Richard,
>
> I write and post links to articles on this printing photovoltaics on my
> openwetware page here: http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Giovanni_Lostumbo
> http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Giovanni_Lostumbo#References

I would not seriously consider organic materials for projects which
require long-term work in the sun - the organic material (as well as
the same sorts of "ink" and so, even if they contain some pigments) do
not last .. .
(Although, of course, an experiment is possible and necessary to try -
but to find a stable material and technology is not an easy task, so
it is impossible to expect a major project as the main method)

As for the organic LED, plastic "printed" electronically, etc. - It's
pretty interesting directions for simple ways to manufacture
electronics and displays ...
(Although, to use organic lighting, I would still wary - there may
also be a problem with durability)

That is why I suggested the use of CdTe - a cell of this type were
tested in the sun in the real world for many years and have no
problems with durability. (Which is why I would choose this type as
the basis for the project, and using only the physical and chemical
technologies - inorganic pigments in the ink-well and may cause
problems due to poor contact of the particles)

Vladimir
PS how much you are interested in projects in biology?
Several years ago I had the idea of ​​creating a cheap open equipment
for genetic analysis, but did not have time for this ...
Here is my forum for laboratory equipment
http://professionali.ru/Soobschestva/laboratornyj_analiz_genetika_immunologiya_i_14896/

--------- (rus orig.)

Я бы не стал всерьез рассматривать органические материалы для проектов
где требуется долговременная работа на солнце - органические
материалы(а так-же всевозможные "чернила" и т.д. и т.п., даже если они
частично содержат пигменты) не долговечны...
(хотя, конечно, в порядке эксперимента это можно и нужно пробовать -
но найти стабильные материалы и технологии очень не простая задача,
поэтому на это нельзя расчитывать в серьезных проектах как на основной
метод)

Что касается органических LED, пластиковой "печатной" электроники и
т.п. - это довольно интересные направления для простых способов
изготовления электроники и дисплеев...
(хотя, использовать органику для освещения я бы пока остерегался - там
тоже могут быть проблемы с долговечностью)

Я поэтому и предложил использовать CdTe - ячейки этого типа
испытывались на солнце в реальных условиях много лет, и не имеют
проблем с долговечностью. (поэтому я бы выбрал этот тип как основной
для проекта, причем используя только физические и химические
технологии - неорганические пигменты в чернилах так-же могут иметь
проблемы из-за плохого контакта частиц)

Vladimir
PS насколько вам интересны проекты по биологии?
Несколько лет назад у меня была идея создания дешевого открытого
оборудования для генетического анализа, но совершенно не хватает
времени на это...
Вот мой форум по лабораторному оборудованию
http://professionali.ru/Soobschestva/laboratornyj_analiz_genetika_immunologiya_i_14896/

[Noon Silk]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Eugen Leitl <eu...@leitl.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 02:08:58PM +0700, Vladimir Teplouhov wrote:
>
>> > Well, I can read that, and I agree, but why did you write that in Russian?
>>
>> sorry, but I do not know English well enough to properly describe
>> complex thoughts, and automatic translators often distort the meaning.
>>
>> Will this be a problem if these places I write in Russian?
>
> It's not a problem for me, but your audience will likely be small.

Interestingly, gmail has decided to provide a "Translate this message"
to Vladimir's posts now (it translates inline); so it apparently isn't
a problem for those using gmail ...


>> Vladimir

--
Noon Silk

Fancy a quantum lunch? https://sites.google.com/site/quantumlunch/

"Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy — the joy
of being this signature."

[John Griessen]

On 06/01/2012 10:18 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> E.g. http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/semiconductors/nanotechnology/solidstate-dyesensitized-solar-cell-matches-performance-of-grtzel-cell
> would come to mind.

I found that article here:
http://isen.northwestern.edu/doc/pdf/news/scholarlypapers/Kanatzidis_M_Nature_DSCs_May2012.pdf

And a related one about one of their PV materials,
CsSnI3,
in which the authors
"describe an effective and inexpensive method to
synthesize high quality CsSnI3 thin films on large-area substrates
such as glass, ceramics, and silicon." "In the first step, high purity multiple
layers usually six of SnI2 or SnCl2 and CsI were alternately
deposited in vacuum 10−5 Torr on glass, ceramics,
and silicon substrates by a combination of thermal and
e-beam evaporators. A rapid thermal annealing was followed
in a dry N2 environment to activate a self-limiting chemical
reaction7 of CsI with SnI2. In the case of SnCl2, annealing
can be done in air "

http://userhome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/kshum/documents/2010APLsysthesisandcharacterizationofCsSnI3thinfilms.pdf

Their rare ingredient is Cesium:

"45th most abundant of all elements and the 36th of all the metals. Nevertheless, it is more abundant than such elements as
antimony, cadmium, tin and tungsten, and two orders of magnitude more abundant than mercury or silver"

John Griessen

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

There is a benefit that I am considering to organics, which may require slightly more maintenance every 2-3 years compared to the longevity of inorganics at 15-20 years, but if it's possible to develop a way to make ink (like a software version) with photovoltaic material inside of it, without having to change the whole printer, and then merely "upgrade" the biosynthetic strain in the bioreactors to make more efficient materials, then newer strains could replace old ones in short term research, the same way Ubuntu Linux distributions are upgraded every 3 years for an LTS release. Solar panel installations has been sped from a day to less than an hour. This video shows 2.2kw installed in 32 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrD0VHaMp0&feature=related

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

The incentive to replace solar panels on a roof every 2-3 years perhaps could be that instead of a 2.5kw maximum set, it could have 5kw, in less area, and may cost less (like buying a new digital camera with more megapixels for less than the old one)

[John Griessen]

On 06/03/2012 02:23 PM, Giovanni Lostumbo wrote:
> Solar panel installations has been sped from a day to less than an hour.

Still, since you are talking kiloWatts, there is an installation fire safety issue, so you
would usually need to hire an electrician and if you just forgot to update it, it would
become a fire hazard also... longevity is part of reliability...

[Eugen Leitl]

There are deployments where photovoltaic polymer (roll out in the desert, weigh down
with stones) make sense, but if you're thinking homes, you'd do much better with
integrated photovoltaics. There durability (40+) are your primary considerations.
Tensegrity structures, inflatables or films spanned on frames would work, though.

Long-term, optimal photovoltaic systems would self-rep and self-deploy, emulating
plants.

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

"Long-term, optimal photovoltaic systems would self-rep and self-deploy, emulating

plants." That was beyond my idea, as I ultimately just was looking for a way to compost the waste, which could fit into that model if done automatically (AGC),  it'd just resemble that physically and principally.

[Giovanni Lostumbo]

*Automatic Garbage Collection, or GC, for short.

[Christopher Covington]

Hi Richard,

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 19:42 -0700, Poor Richard wrote:
> I'm interested in photovoltaic materials that could be manufactured in
> a non-capital-intensive process by cottage industry. (I'm not talking
> about assembling panels, but making the basic photovoltaic material:
> film, polymer, dye, coating, etc.) Can anyone give me any leads on
> small-scale manufacturing of pv materilas?

I'm interested too. Here are some potential starting points:

Simple cuprous oxide photocell:
http://www.ehow.com/how_10002879_build-photocell.html

A longer discussion of the cuprous oxide photocell:
http://www4.zetatalk.com/docs/Solar/Electric/How_To_Build_A_Solar_Cell_That_Really_Works_W_Noon_1990.pdf

I've heard that there used to be cadmium sulfide photocell kits on the
market but I've not been able to find any trace of them online.

Regards,
Cov

[Christopher Covington]

Feel free to add to, fix up, or repurpose the following page:

http://reprap.org/wiki/Printing_electronics

Regards,
Cov

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[Christopher Covington]

On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 12:23 -0700, Giovanni Lostumbo wrote:
> There is a benefit that I am considering to organics, which may
> require slightly more maintenance every 2-3 years compared to the
> longevity of inorganics at 15-20 years, but if it's possible to
> develop a way to make ink (like a software version) with photovoltaic
> material inside of it, without having to change the whole printer, and
> then merely "upgrade" the biosynthetic strain in the bioreactors to
> make more efficient materials, then newer strains could replace old
> ones in short term research, the same way Ubuntu Linux distributions
> are upgraded every 3 years for an LTS release. Solar panel
> installations has been sped from a day to less than an hour. This
> video shows 2.2kw installed in 32 minutes
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrD0VHaMp0&feature=related

Why not make ink out of inorganic photovoltaic materials?

Cov

[John Griessen]

On 06/20/2012 06:37 AM, Christopher Covington wrote:
> Why not make ink out of inorganic photovoltaic materials?

Sure, but there are some breakthrough materials that conduct well
like graphene.

If you use graphene in a recipe you can use references to cool sounding research like:
"Electrical transport studies on graphene have been focused
mainly on the linear dispersion region around the Fermi
level1,2 and, in particular, on the effects associated with the
quasiparticles in graphene behaving as relativistic particles
known as Dirac fermions"

What an academic mouthful!

This is about graphene showing higher hole mobility than Si.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0703208.pdf