Home Insurance and non-UL listed appliance

[DG]

Awesome work on this project!!
While discussing the required permitting (for the 240v circuit addition), the question of "what appliance are you putting in your garage?" came up.
It seems that installing a non-UL listed appliance (regardless of DIY or not) may be problematic with my insurance company.
Has anyone else had this experience?
Thanks!

[chris1howell .]

That is a question only your insurance provider can answer. For the most part that seems to be a myth.

For example the Tesla UMC shipped with every Model S is not UL or NRTL listed. Anyone build their own PC, that is not UL listed either?

  

[Danny ter Haar]

If you fit a 14-50 outlet, tell them you will install a "regular" 240 volt L2 charger.

Up to you if you want to got the UL listed way and pay the extra $$, don't have the flexibility of upgrading to wifi/usage metering on the web or join the thousand of openevse users over the whole world.

Even the included tesla 240 volt charger is non UL listed.

Would all those people be in trouble ? 

[DG]

I am currently on-hold with my insurance carrier, and I will update this thread when I get a concrete answer. Of course, I cannot guarantee that all insurance carriers will have the same response, but I'm specifically asking them if UL certification is required on an appliance in regards to fire insurance on my home. In the event that there is a fire, I don't want an appliance to disqualify my coverage! I'll update shortly...

[DG]

OK, here's the long a short of it directly from my insurance carrier (no guarantee that yours is the same, I have great insurance!): Fire is a Covered Peril regardless of how it starts. There is only one exception, and that is if the fire starts from Faulty Wiring. I asked him to elaborate, since many commercial chargers (which lack UL cert as mentioned) aren't wired by the owner or an electrician. He implied that the wiring clause applies to household wiring, and not the end-device. The example he used was "if you are using your bbq and start a fire, it's still a covered peril". So, basically, get your outlet permitted and installed correctly, and everything should be fine.

So, at least in my situation, I think this is a Non-Issue raised by a well-meaning permitting office.

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 9:16:17 AM UTC-7, Chris wrote:

[Danny ter Haar]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 9:42:04 AM UTC-7, DG wrote:

OK, here's the long a short of it directly from my insurance carrier (no guarantee that yours is the same, I have great insurance!): Fire is a Covered Peril regardless of how it starts. There is only one exception, and that is if the fire starts from Faulty Wiring. I asked him to elaborate, since many commercial chargers (which lack UL cert as mentioned) aren't wired by the owner or an electrician. He implied that the wiring clause applies to household wiring, and not the end-device. The example he used was "if you are using your bbq and start a fire, it's still a covered peril". So, basically, get your outlet permitted and installed correctly, and everything should be fine.

So, at least in my situation, I think this is a Non-Issue raised by a well-meaning permitting office. 

Thanks for the followup .

Interesting info, thanks! 

[kkemp]

Could you find and paste exactly what your policy says about faulty wiring not being covered? The only thing I can imagine is if you hired an electrician and as the result of their negligent installation their insurance should cover the fire not your homeowners but I find it difficult to believe that if your electrician didn't have suitable insurance that your insurance would deny the claim.

[DG]

That was a quote from the agent on the phone, I haven't searched through my docs to find it (maybe I should?). Here's a clarification of what I took away from the convo: Devices that are "plugged in" to an outlet are covered hazards (no matter what). If the outlet into which they are plugged was the source of a problem, and the problem was due to faulty/incorrect wiring, then the company can (read: will) dispute a claim. In my case, the additional circuit needs to be permitted and inspected by the county. If the county inspector passes the work (regardless of who does it), the wiring has been "certified" as meeting county code and there is a record of that approved permit in the county records.

My county charges 238$ for a residential EVSE permit. 298$ if you need to as a sub panel for your EVSE. It's not cheap, but it's a one time fee, it is probably worth the pain.

[Keith Kemp]

Getting a permit and inspection is a great idea but until I read a direct quote from your policy I don't believe what you were told. 

—Keith

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:25 PM, DG <green.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

That was a quote from the agent on the phone, I haven't searched through my docs to find it (maybe I should?). Here's a clarification of what I took away from the convo: Devices that are "plugged in" to an outlet are covered hazards (no matter what). If the outlet into which they are plugged was the source of a problem, and the problem was due to faulty/incorrect wiring, then the company can (read: will) dispute a claim. In my case, the additional circuit needs to be permitted and inspected by the county. If the county inspector passes the work (regardless of who does it), the wiring has been "certified" as meeting county code and there is a record of that approved permit in the county records.

My county charges 238$ for a residential EVSE permit. 298$ if you need to as a sub panel for your EVSE. It's not cheap, but it's a one time fee, it is probably worth the pain.

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[Alan]

Keep in mind, you're not getting a permit for an installed EVSE. You're getting a permit for a 240v outlet. The inspector doesn't need to know what you are plugging into that outlet as the "appliance" is not accounted for in the inspection. So your cost should be significantly less.

They are most likely using that high permit $ amount to bilk the "rich" EV owners so I wouldn't even mention what you're plugging in. If they ask, tell them it's for a space heater, or tell them it's none of their business.

[chris1howell .]

Many builders have reported less expensive permits, quotes/installs from electricians and less hassle by permitting a NEMA 14-50 "RV outlet" or a NEMA 6-50 "Welder outlet". Mention a EV and the cost doubles or triples.