Is automatic alpha-conversion evil?
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Nil Geisweiller
Oct 21, 2016, 11:55:37 AM10/21/16
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Hi,
I start to think that automatic alpha-conversion is evil.
First let me recall what it does. Say you've added
(Scope (VariableList (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y")))
and you subsequently add
(Scope (And (Variable "$gold") (Variable "$silver")))
then recalling the handle of that last addition, you'd get the first
alpha-equivalent scope, which is
(Scope (VariableList (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y")))
This is rather confusing to the user, but even worse the pattern matcher
behaves differently with the former or the latter. If you use the former
to match grounds containing variables "$X" and "$Y" it may not work due
to the pattern matcher discarding self-matches. The latter would match
UNLESS the former has been previously added, because the variables
"$gold" and "$silver" would be silently replaced by "$X" and "$Y". This
is horribly confusing to the user!
Second, it seems rather arbitrary to try to detect this kind of
equivalence while there's an infinity of others. For instance
(And (Variable "$X") (And (Variable "$Y"))
is equivalent to
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
For these reasons I think semantic equivalence detection shouldn't be
incorporated into the AtomSpace. The AtomSpace should take care of the
syntax only (OK, with the exception of unordered links), as it's always
been, and this task should differed to another process working above the
AtomSpace.
It was suggested a while ago to have a normal form reduction engine for
the AtomSpace, similar to MOSES', and such an engine could be used to
reduce while adding atoms, if the user chooses so. This is a much
cleaner way to handle that. Also since semantic equivalence is
undecidable, there will always be a battle between completeness and
performance. Another reason to have this ever growing monster above the
AtomSpace rather than in it.
OK, I don't know if I've convinced you, or even if I've convinced
myself, but it's really a discussion we need to have.
Opinions welcome.
Nil
I start to think that automatic alpha-conversion is evil.
First let me recall what it does. Say you've added
(Scope (VariableList (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y")))
and you subsequently add
(Scope (And (Variable "$gold") (Variable "$silver")))
then recalling the handle of that last addition, you'd get the first
alpha-equivalent scope, which is
(Scope (VariableList (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y")))
This is rather confusing to the user, but even worse the pattern matcher
behaves differently with the former or the latter. If you use the former
to match grounds containing variables "$X" and "$Y" it may not work due
to the pattern matcher discarding self-matches. The latter would match
UNLESS the former has been previously added, because the variables
"$gold" and "$silver" would be silently replaced by "$X" and "$Y". This
is horribly confusing to the user!
Second, it seems rather arbitrary to try to detect this kind of
equivalence while there's an infinity of others. For instance
(And (Variable "$X") (And (Variable "$Y"))
is equivalent to
(And (Variable "$X") (Variable "$Y"))
For these reasons I think semantic equivalence detection shouldn't be
incorporated into the AtomSpace. The AtomSpace should take care of the
syntax only (OK, with the exception of unordered links), as it's always
been, and this task should differed to another process working above the
AtomSpace.
It was suggested a while ago to have a normal form reduction engine for
the AtomSpace, similar to MOSES', and such an engine could be used to
reduce while adding atoms, if the user chooses so. This is a much
cleaner way to handle that. Also since semantic equivalence is
undecidable, there will always be a battle between completeness and
performance. Another reason to have this ever growing monster above the
AtomSpace rather than in it.
OK, I don't know if I've convinced you, or even if I've convinced
myself, but it's really a discussion we need to have.
Opinions welcome.
Nil
Matt Chapman
Oct 21, 2016, 2:04:11 PM10/21/16
to opencog
Id dint know the atomspace did this, and I would be annoyed to find it showing up in results unexpectedly. I agree, determining semantic equivalence is the job of a Mind Agent.
There's my semi-annual 2 cents.
All the Best,
Matt
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Nil
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Ben Goertzel
Oct 21, 2016, 8:34:26 PM10/21/16
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Nil,
Just brainstorming here, but perhaps the command for adding an Atom
should have an option that the user can set, which determines whether
the results would be alpha-converted or not
The default would be to do the alpha-conversion (which would be
appropriate if the variable names are say randomly generated, and thus
of no particular importance to the user -- the alpha conversion is
then just preventing odd collisions between randomly generated
variable names created by two different processes)
However, if the user wants they can override this default and specify
"no alpha conversion", and then it is their responsibility to check
and be sure their chosen VariableNode names are not going to be used
in a way that creates some conflict ...
This option would need to be added to Scheme, python, Haskell
bindings, but also to the core API for adding scoped links, I guess...
I am only about 83.456% sure I understand the problem here...
-- Ben
Ben Goertzel, PhD
http://goertzel.org
Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is
currently struggling to form...
Just brainstorming here, but perhaps the command for adding an Atom
should have an option that the user can set, which determines whether
the results would be alpha-converted or not
The default would be to do the alpha-conversion (which would be
appropriate if the variable names are say randomly generated, and thus
of no particular importance to the user -- the alpha conversion is
then just preventing odd collisions between randomly generated
variable names created by two different processes)
However, if the user wants they can override this default and specify
"no alpha conversion", and then it is their responsibility to check
and be sure their chosen VariableNode names are not going to be used
in a way that creates some conflict ...
This option would need to be added to Scheme, python, Haskell
bindings, but also to the core API for adding scoped links, I guess...
I am only about 83.456% sure I understand the problem here...
-- Ben
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Ben Goertzel, PhD
http://goertzel.org
Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is
currently struggling to form...
Nil Geisweiller
Nov 16, 2016, 6:34:42 AM11/16/16
to ope...@googlegroups.com
I'm back to this issue.
The notion of LocalQuote is indeed incompatible with systematic
alpha-conversion.
Consider this pattern
(Get
(VariableList
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$X")
(Type "TypedVariableLink"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$P")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$Q")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(LocalQuote
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))))
This fetches ImplicationScope links.
If the following
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))
happen to be alpha-equivalent to something with different variable names
it will render the Bind link invalid.
Indeed alpha-conversion shouldn't be triggered in that case, the right
idea is that the ImplicationScope, when quoted corresponds to a
DIFFERENT atom than the one not being quoted. Also of course if we
decide to not perform systematic alpha-conversion then this problem
doesn't arise.
I'm re-iterating my question. Do we really want automatic
alpha-conversion to begin with?
If the answer is yes then I suppose we need a way to tell that the
quoted version is different than then unquoted version.
Nil
The notion of LocalQuote is indeed incompatible with systematic
alpha-conversion.
Consider this pattern
(Get
(VariableList
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$X")
(Type "TypedVariableLink"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$P")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$Q")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(LocalQuote
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))))
This fetches ImplicationScope links.
If the following
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))
happen to be alpha-equivalent to something with different variable names
it will render the Bind link invalid.
Indeed alpha-conversion shouldn't be triggered in that case, the right
idea is that the ImplicationScope, when quoted corresponds to a
DIFFERENT atom than the one not being quoted. Also of course if we
decide to not perform systematic alpha-conversion then this problem
doesn't arise.
I'm re-iterating my question. Do we really want automatic
alpha-conversion to begin with?
If the answer is yes then I suppose we need a way to tell that the
quoted version is different than then unquoted version.
Nil
Nil Geisweiller
Nov 16, 2016, 6:43:52 AM11/16/16
to ope...@googlegroups.com
Another option would be to defined quoted atom types corresponding to
all scope links, like
QuotedImplicationScopeLink
Or
ImplicationScopeLocalQuoteLink
which would inherit a LocalQuoteLink.
It has the advantage of being compact, unambiguous and circumvent the
alpha-conversion issue altogether.
What do you think?
Nil
all scope links, like
QuotedImplicationScopeLink
Or
ImplicationScopeLocalQuoteLink
which would inherit a LocalQuoteLink.
It has the advantage of being compact, unambiguous and circumvent the
alpha-conversion issue altogether.
What do you think?
Nil
Ben Goertzel
Nov 16, 2016, 6:44:47 AM11/16/16
to opencog
Too ugly...
More later...
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Linas Vepstas
Nov 16, 2016, 12:50:18 PM11/16/16
to opencog
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 5:34 AM, 'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I'm back to this issue.
The notion of LocalQuote is indeed incompatible with systematic alpha-conversion.
Consider this pattern
(Get
(VariableList
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$X")
(Type "TypedVariableLink"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$P")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$Q")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(LocalQuote
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))))
This fetches ImplicationScope links.
Well, no, it throws an error:
ERROR: Throw to key `C++-EXCEPTION' with args `("cog-new-link" "Expected a VariableNode or a TypedVariableLink, got: LocalQuoteLink (/home/linas/src/novamente/src/atomspace-git/opencog/atoms/core/VariableList.cc:61)")'.
That's with a pull from just now.
anyway, it is designed to fetch ImplicationScopeLinks that are ill-formed. It's declared to find links like this:
(ImplicationScope
(TypedVariableLink
(TypeNode "ConceptNode")
(VariableNode "vvv"))
(PredicateNode "pa")
(PredicateNode "qa"))
the variable never appears anywhere. Its -- well, the variable can be completely discarded, and you'd get an equivalent ImplicationScope that does not have any variables in it.
If the following
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q"))
happen to be alpha-equivalent to something with different variable names it will render the Bind link invalid.
? I don't understand what you're saying. Why would it be "invalid"? Is there a bug? What do you mean by "happens to be alpha-equivalent"? It is, by definition, alpha-equivalent to an infinite number of other links.
Indeed alpha-conversion shouldn't be triggered in that case,
In which case? Alpha conversion of what?
the right idea is that the ImplicationScope, when quoted corresponds to a DIFFERENT atom than the one not being quoted.
Can you clarify?
Also of course if we decide to not perform systematic alpha-conversion then this problem doesn't arise.
You want to eliminate ScopeLink and Lambda Link ? That's a very serious change.
I'm re-iterating my question. Do we really want automatic alpha-conversion to begin with?
What do you mean when you say "automatic"? Either there is alpha conversion, or there is not. What else can it be?
If the answer is yes then I suppose we need a way to tell that the quoted version is different than then unquoted version.
what is different from what? A better example is needed.
--linas
Nil
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Linas Vepstas
Nov 16, 2016, 12:56:28 PM11/16/16
to opencog
Ah, the exception was due to a bug in the original email. After fixing that, it the code works just fine, I don't see what the problem is. Cut n paste of the works-for-me version below.
--linas
(use-modules (opencog) (opencog query) (opencog exec))
(define g
(Get
(VariableList
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$X")
(Type "TypedVariableLink"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$P")
(Type "PredicateNode"))
(TypedVariable
(Variable "$Q")
(Type "PredicateNode")))
(LocalQuote
(ImplicationScope
(Variable "$X")
(Variable "$P")
(Variable "$Q")))))
;; except to find this
(ImplicationScope
(TypedVariableLink
(VariableNode "vvv")
(TypeNode "ConceptNode")
)
(PredicateNode "ppp")
(PredicateNode "qqq"))
(cog-execute! g)
;; returns the expected result. What is the problem?
Ben Goertzel
Nov 16, 2016, 9:27:56 PM11/16/16
to opencog
Nil,
I just reviewed our dialogue on this from a year ago...
It seems what we provisionally concluded there was that the chainer
should do alpha-conversion on the fly in the course of pattern
matching ... but that the Atomspace shouldn't do alpha-conversion
"automatically" in any other sense [unless we want to add some Reduct
type engine on the Atomspace, which could do alpha-conversion along
with other normalizations, but that becomes a separate issue]
We also discussed a cog-new-var command that could be used to minimize
the complexities of alpha-conversions... (via reducing the incidence
of redundant variable names)
In this case, the alpha-conversion done by the chainer in the course
of doing its business, would need to handle LocalQuoteLink
correctly...
The choice of the chainer to do alpha-conversion but not (yet) more
general types of reduction, would be made because alpha-conversion is
cheaper and easier and of such broad utility. Later versions of the
chainer might do more general reductions as part of their ordinary
business, as well...
I may be missing something; a year ago when William and I were talking
about this, my head was fully immersed in the problem, but it's less
the case right now...
-- Ben
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:34 PM, 'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/582C444E.4030706%40gmail.com.
“I tell my students, when you go to these meetings, see what direction
everyone is headed, so you can go in the opposite direction. Don’t
polish the brass on the bandwagon.” – V. S. Ramachandran
I just reviewed our dialogue on this from a year ago...
It seems what we provisionally concluded there was that the chainer
should do alpha-conversion on the fly in the course of pattern
matching ... but that the Atomspace shouldn't do alpha-conversion
"automatically" in any other sense [unless we want to add some Reduct
type engine on the Atomspace, which could do alpha-conversion along
with other normalizations, but that becomes a separate issue]
We also discussed a cog-new-var command that could be used to minimize
the complexities of alpha-conversions... (via reducing the incidence
of redundant variable names)
In this case, the alpha-conversion done by the chainer in the course
of doing its business, would need to handle LocalQuoteLink
correctly...
The choice of the chainer to do alpha-conversion but not (yet) more
general types of reduction, would be made because alpha-conversion is
cheaper and easier and of such broad utility. Later versions of the
chainer might do more general reductions as part of their ordinary
business, as well...
I may be missing something; a year ago when William and I were talking
about this, my head was fully immersed in the problem, but it's less
the case right now...
-- Ben
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:34 PM, 'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog
“I tell my students, when you go to these meetings, see what direction
everyone is headed, so you can go in the opposite direction. Don’t
polish the brass on the bandwagon.” – V. S. Ramachandran
Linas Vepstas
Nov 16, 2016, 10:14:06 PM11/16/16
to opencog
Look, if there is a bug, open a bug report. I'm nervous about these kind of blanket statements about what's best and what is not best. The atomspace is already complicated, adding more complexity to it is not a solution.
--linas
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“I tell my students, when you go to these meetings, see what direction
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Ben Goertzel
Nov 17, 2016, 12:29:08 AM11/17/16
to opencog
Opening a GitHub issue may be a good idea, but I want to clarify that
what Nil is talking about may be a "missing, potentially useful
feature" rather than a bug per se..
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what Nil is talking about may be a "missing, potentially useful
feature" rather than a bug per se..
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>> “I tell my students, when you go to these meetings, see what direction
>> everyone is headed, so you can go in the opposite direction. Don’t
>> polish the brass on the bandwagon.” – V. S. Ramachandran
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>> “I tell my students, when you go to these meetings, see what direction
>> everyone is headed, so you can go in the opposite direction. Don’t
>> polish the brass on the bandwagon.” – V. S. Ramachandran
>>
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Nil Geisweiller
Nov 17, 2016, 1:42:32 AM11/17/16
to ope...@googlegroups.com
Oh, my query was idiotic, $P and $Q wouldn't be typed PredicateNode, I
meant something like EvaluationLink as to let a change to have the
variables appear in them.
Nil
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meant something like EvaluationLink as to let a change to have the
variables appear in them.
Nil
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Nil Geisweiller
Nov 17, 2016, 1:54:43 AM11/17/16
to ope...@googlegroups.com
The reason I didn't want to open a bug report just yet is because I
wanted to discuss whether we really want to check alpha-equivalence
whenever a new scope link is added to the atomspace (and subsequently
consider both equal and return the previous one to the user).
Nil
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wanted to discuss whether we really want to check alpha-equivalence
whenever a new scope link is added to the atomspace (and subsequently
consider both equal and return the previous one to the user).
Nil
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Ben Goertzel
Nov 17, 2016, 2:09:26 AM11/17/16
to opencog
I think our conclusion in 2015 was that processes like the chainer should do alpha conversion on the fly... so we should supply a utility function making it easy for anyone to invoke alpha conversion in a particular set of atoms..
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Linas Vepstas
Nov 17, 2016, 2:14:11 AM11/17/16
to opencog
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 AM, 'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
The reason I didn't want to open a bug report just yet is because I wanted to discuss whether we really want to check alpha-equivalence whenever a new scope link is added to the atomspace (and subsequently consider both equal and return the previous one to the user).
At the moment, I don't see any reasonable alternative.
You're suggesting that something is missing or that there's a problem, but I haven't yet inferred what it is. I did notice a comment in Rule.h talking about a work-around to ScopeLinks -- perhaps that is a good starting point. What is it that you want to do, and why is the scope link preventing you from doing it?
--linas
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Nil Geisweiller
Nov 17, 2016, 2:51:14 AM11/17/16
to ope...@googlegroups.com
On 11/17/2016 09:09 AM, Ben Goertzel wrote:
> I think our conclusion in 2015 was that processes like the chainer
> should do alpha conversion on the fly... so we should supply a utility
> function making it easy for anyone to invoke alpha conversion in a
> particular set of atoms..
capture, there's no problem here. The problem comes from the fact that
the atomspace may silently perform alpha-conversion when a scope link is
added, ultimately there are solutions to address any problem resulting
from such implicit conversions, but I can't help it, there's a part of
me that feels ambivalent about it...
Anyway, I'll open a github issue whenever I encounter the problem I'm
trying to describe in real life situation.
Nil
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2016 3:54 PM, "'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog"
> <ope...@googlegroups.com <mailto:ope...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>
> The reason I didn't want to open a bug report just yet is because I
> wanted to discuss whether we really want to check alpha-equivalence
> whenever a new scope link is added to the atomspace (and
> subsequently consider both equal and return the previous one to the
> user).
>
> Nil
>
> On 11/17/2016 05:13 AM, Linas Vepstas wrote:
>
> Look, if there is a bug, open a bug report. I'm nervous about
> these kind
> of blanket statements about what's best and what is not best. The
> atomspace is already complicated, adding more complexity to it
> is not a
> solution.
>
> --linas
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ben Goertzel <b...@goertzel.org
> <mailto:b...@goertzel.org>
>
> The reason I didn't want to open a bug report just yet is because I
> wanted to discuss whether we really want to check alpha-equivalence
> whenever a new scope link is added to the atomspace (and
> subsequently consider both equal and return the previous one to the
> user).
>
> Nil
>
> On 11/17/2016 05:13 AM, Linas Vepstas wrote:
>
> Look, if there is a bug, open a bug report. I'm nervous about
> these kind
> of blanket statements about what's best and what is not best. The
> atomspace is already complicated, adding more complexity to it
> is not a
> solution.
>
> --linas
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ben Goertzel <b...@goertzel.org
> <mailto:b...@goertzel.org>
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Ben Goertzel
Nov 17, 2016, 3:54:59 AM11/17/16
to opencog
If the Atomspace does silently perform alpha-conversion upon Atom
insertion, I don't see why any technical problem would occur as a
result of this?
If a human inserts some VariableNodes with names that she likes, it's
obnoxious for the Atomspace to automagically rename these ... for this
reason it seems that automatic alpha-conversion on insertion is
somewhat problematic .... Though I guess one could create a
workaround like
NamedVariableNode "F"
which allows creation of VariableNodes whose names won't be changed..
or we could just accept that VariableNodes may get renamed by the
system and do stuff like
ReferenceLink
LabelNode "F"
VariableNode "12345"
where the "12345" name can be revised by the system if it wants to...
ben
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insertion, I don't see why any technical problem would occur as a
result of this?
If a human inserts some VariableNodes with names that she likes, it's
obnoxious for the Atomspace to automagically rename these ... for this
reason it seems that automatic alpha-conversion on insertion is
somewhat problematic .... Though I guess one could create a
workaround like
NamedVariableNode "F"
which allows creation of VariableNodes whose names won't be changed..
or we could just accept that VariableNodes may get renamed by the
system and do stuff like
ReferenceLink
LabelNode "F"
VariableNode "12345"
where the "12345" name can be revised by the system if it wants to...
ben
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Linas Vepstas
Nov 18, 2016, 3:30:41 PM11/18/16
to opencog
I think we are mis-communicating about something. Whatever it is that the URE is doing, it isn't alpha-conversion, its something else. There's no code outside of the atomspace that is algorithmically capable of performing alpha-conversion. It's literally impossible to accomplish, it simply has no access to those atoms.
--linas
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 1:51 AM, 'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog <ope...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
On 11/17/2016 09:09 AM, Ben Goertzel wrote:
I think our conclusion in 2015 was that processes like the chainer
should do alpha conversion on the fly... so we should supply a utility
function making it easy for anyone to invoke alpha conversion in a
particular set of atoms..
The URE does alpha-conversion whenever necessary as to avoid name capture, there's no problem here. The problem comes from the fact that the atomspace may silently perform alpha-conversion when a scope link is added, ultimately there are solutions to address any problem resulting from such implicit conversions, but I can't help it, there's a part of me that feels ambivalent about it...
Anyway, I'll open a github issue whenever I encounter the problem I'm trying to describe in real life situation.
Nil
On Nov 17, 2016 3:54 PM, "'Nil Geisweiller' via opencog"
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