complete silence

[Bastelmike]

Uhh, deadly silence in this group now !

 

Did all work on a steam engine come to a standstill ?

What about building something like this rough sketch ?

 

http://666kb.com/i/c6ufxsd4yospg1rx9.jpg

 

Its only a basic CAD sketch now because I know way too less about steamers to get it right. But I've tried to design it without castings (maybe still the cylinder) and with parts that could be machined in a large well equipped homeshop.

 

Mike

[Mark Norton]

While I still monitor activity, I haven't been doing much of anything myself.  Too busy building my house.

- Mark

[Paul Passarelli]

I felt "cut-out" of the goals & intent of the project.  Nothing compelling remained.

--Paul

Paul Passarelli
President
Pa...@SolarAndThermal.com
(203)846-2500

The Light is Green!

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Bastelmike <misc...@yahoo.de> wrote:

[Josh Jordan]

Its a tough project.  The most capable generation of steam engineers could not compete with crude early diesel engines, so for us it will at least be very difficult to make something comparable to other solar technologies.  All the cheap solar coming out of china reduced the price by half or more making steam that much less practical.

-Josh Jordan

[Dorkmo]

i did some work on my design at the begining of summer but had some issues with some welds that ended up not being straight. so i was in a start over mode on a couple things. ive been designing some jigs that will be 3d printed to help durring welding. once i get those sorted out ill try again.

[Mark Norton]

Careful about such comparisons.  If you compare solar steam generation plus steam engine generator to photo-voltaic power cells, you are going to get some pretty different results.  It's not a fair comparison, IMO.  Much steam-based power can be done from scraps, though some parts generally need to be bought.  None of us are going to build PV cells from scratch - even if we had the rare earths needed.

- Mark

[Eerik Wissenz]

Though material complexity is an issue (i.e. PV can be made cheaply with global supply chains fueled by oil), as important is that solar concentration provides high-grade thermal energy, needed for plenty of things. A steam engine can add value to such thermal processes by co-producing electricity.

Eerik

--
Eerik Wissenz

Free Access to Solar Energy
www.solarfire.org
SiSustainable - Web Development
www.sisustainable.com

[Bastelmike]

Hi Josh,

 

I don't see the steam engine for use in conjunction with solar energy.

 

Producing electricity with a solar concentrator, steam engine and generator will not be competitive with solar panels. Even if solar panels eventually double in price, the cost of building concentrator and generator will be too high. And total efficiency of solar energy use will probably be lower. Too many mechanical parts needed, too many moving parts.

 

But to achieve a dependable round-the-clock electric power upply, You can't rely on solar and wind only. Solar energy isn't available half of the day, and in winter in temperate climates solar energy is scarce. Wind energy isn't dependable, one day it works well, next day there isn't any wind with useful speed.

 

In northern climates You will need most energy during winter with the need for heating; at a time when solar fails and wind speeds aren't sufficient for power generation. You need another power source besides sun and wind.

In tropical countries the situation is different. They don't need energy for heating purposes in winter because there s no winter and solar radiation is more constant during the year.

 

Energy storage in batteries is too inefficient, therefore we need another energy source besides sun and  wind in winter. If oil and natural gas are no longer available, biomass seems to be the best option. Thats the potential use of an OSE steam engine: biomass burner -> steam generator -> steam engine -> electric generator

Not a combination with a solar concentrator.

 

Seems to me as the only reliable energy source in winter if you want a high degree of autarky for a community. Thats why I still support steam engine development.

Mike

[Daniel Connell]

> Even if solar panels eventually double in price, the cost of building
concentrator and generator will be too high.

Depends. I've got a 1-2 kW concentrator design can be built for less
than 50 euro, Solarfire will do about 20kW for a couple thousand (I
think, should check). I'm working on a very simple steam generator, only
aiming for 12v but it would cost again less than 50 E.
But that's not really the point; concentrated solar, or any heat based
system, isn't about single applications, it's about energy cascades. ie
with a 30 m^2 Solarfire, for example, you put your initial 1000 C into a
steam turbine, the 600 C steam which comes out of that goes into a steam
piston, with the 300 C from that you make biochar or whatever, and the
waste heat from that goes into cooking, heating, hot water etc.
PV doesn't work like that.

> Too many mechanical parts needed, too many moving parts.

My steam engine design has none other than the generator (which would be
a PM motor running reversed), and it's all scrap and OTS parts. Don't
know yet if it actually works, mind, but something like it could be made
to with good enough design.

> But to achieve a dependable round-the-clock electric power supply, You

can't rely on solar and wind only.

True, minus effective storage. Solar can be stored as heat for hours to
days in insulated tanks, and indefinitely in certain chemical-change
solutions once they figure out how to do that cheaply. Also solid state
as charcoal. Wind can be stored as compressed air, pumped water etc. The
sun might only shine a fraction of the year, but it shines a lot when it
does, so as long as your energy capture system is cheap and effective
enough you just catch shedloads of the stuff while it's available.

> biomass seems to be the best option.

Biomass is indeed an excellent and versatile option.

> biomass burner -> steam generator -> steam engine -> electric

generator. Not a combination with a solar concentrator.

Seems an all-of-the-above option would make the most sense...

Regarding why this group has dried up, I'd say it's likely the same
reason the parent OSEE group went the same way: talk is easy. Actually
making stuff takes the conscious decision to do so and everyone's busy.

[Mark Norton]

>  Producing electricity with a solar concentrator, steam engine and generator will not be competitive with solar panels.

On a commercial basis, that's probably true.  However, I don't really think of the issues from the point of view of making money.  From an energy independence view point, I want a range of systems.  A solar concentrator that generates good quality steam has several potential uses beyond generating electricity.  Steam can be used directly for heating, cleaning and sterilizing, etc.  I'd also like to see more than one source of steam, including the biomass fired boiler you mentioned.

- Mark