Communication problem between PHD2 and Nitecrawler rotator?

[Kevin Quin]

I think my rotator has stopped communicating with PHD2, even though the settings all look correct.  The other night guiding/tracking was perfect until NINA switched to my second target, then it started zigzagging - alternately giving move commands in RA and then Dec.  I suspect the problem is that PHD isn't getting notified that the rotator ran 45 degrees (as instructed) when NINA switched to the new target.  If anyone could see if this shows in the logs, I'd appreciate it.  THe log is here:   https://openphdguiding.org/logs/dl/PHD2_logs_UaB9.zip

My alternative theory is that the rotator (Moonlite Nitecrawler) is actually running in reverse from the direction it's supposed to run.  I need to have NINA's reverse setting ON to get the platesolve to work properly, and I suspect that setting isn't' sticky enough.  Sometimes when NINA starts up the sequence the reverse setting is set to OFF.

Thanks for any help.  

Kevin

[Brian Valente]

Kevin

I responded to you in the AP forums as well. the rotator is connected and registering the different angles, but your guiding is not correct. PHD has a reverse option as well, which may be what you need

In other words, if NINA rotator is working correctly, but PHD rotator is not, enable this. 

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Brian Valente

astronomy portfolio https://www.astrobin.com/users/bvalente/ 

[Bruce Waddington]

Kevin, if you want to avoid going in circles and wasting a lot of time, please follow the full procedure for determining the correct value of 'Reverse angle' in PHD2:

https://openphdguiding.org/man-dev/Basic_use.htm#Rotator_Selection

Regards,

Bruce

[Kevin Quin]

Thanks Brian and Bruce.  I followed the procedure in the documentation when I first set this up a year ago, and found the only settings that allow both PHD2 and platesolving (to avoid having the rotator continuously "hunt" for the right angle but never find it) to work properly are to leave the PHD2 setting unchecked, the ASCOM setting unchecked, and the NINA setting to ON.  I'll run through the procedure again tonight.  Maybe a software update in one of the apps has changed something?  I'll try to find out.  

[Bruce Waddington]

Yes, the point of the procedure is to do a systematic, bottom-up set of tests to figure out the right setting at each layer in the software "stack".  I seem to recall that NINA might have made a change in this area some time ago but don't hold me to that.  Obviously, there is a solution to be had.

Regards,

Bruce

[Brian Valente]

>>>  I seem to recall that NINA might have made a change in this area some time ago but don't hold me to that.

I recall this as well (having my own rotators and dealing with this). I think Dale is somewhere around here and can correct us if needed

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[Kevin Quin]

IIRC the move from NINA 2 to NINA 3 changed the direction of rotation.  But I've been using NINA 3 for at least a year.  Anyway, I should get some clear spaces between the clouds tonight to try this out.

[Kevin Quin]

After running through the test protocol, it looks like the correct settings are to have the reverse checked in PHD2 and the reverse in NINA set to on.  I could swear I've been running it for the last year with the PHD reverse unchecked.  But I replaced my PC recently, so maybe I got the settings wrong. Anyway, it's working so far.  

Bruce and Brian, thanks for all your help on this!

[Brian Valente]

Glad to hear you got it sorted Kevin, thanks for the update

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[Kevin Quin]

Well, I thought I had this problem solved by keeping Reverse Sign of Angle checked.  But last night the problem reappeared, and it went away when I UNCHECKED Reverse Sign of Angle.  Just like before, the first target I imaged (which didn't require the rotator to run) worked without trouble, but when the rig switched to the second target (which required a 45 degree rotation as well as a meridian flip) the guide star began moving in circles around the set point rather than getting pulled back in.  As soon as I unchecked Reverse Sign of Angle, everything worked fine.

The one thing that I noticed last night was that when NINA started up, the Reverse setting in NINA's rotator settings was OFF rather than ON, which is where it needs to be platesolving to succeed.  This setting for some reason often "unsets' itself, and I have to reset it, which I did last night, as soon as it started up.  But PHD2 doesn't have any interaction with the reverse setting in NINA, does it?

Any idea how to troubleshoot this now?  I don't understand how sometimes Reverse Sign of Angle needs to checked, and other times it needs to be unchecked.  

[Mike Ales]

Kevin,

  I believe the reason things keep changing on you is that you need to get the reverse direction fixed at the Vendor Driver/GUI/Galibration step.
  At least on one of my systems the NINA setting is kind of temporary and the next time I turn power off of everything the Rotator reloads from it's settings information (either in onboard flash or buried in some Windows file/registry depending on Vendor

  Of course sometimes Windows updates like to mess up settings if the vendor saved them in anything that windows might update with a USB update.
  I know Windows only sometimes does USB/COM updates since I check the 'let windows manage power on the USB ports' once in a while and sometimes it is rechecked.

  So start with the vendors GUI/Calibration/Driver setup instructions and get the reverse switch set correctly for your optics.
  Seems like so many times they vendors default are not consistent with the astro related rotator direction that it should be (for refractor from rear of scope, counter clockwise rotation for positive numbers of rotation).

Also get the limits set to avoid cable wrap on the vendors side too while you are in the settings.

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[Kevin Quin]

Following up on this, I think I have a reliable workaround to keep NINA’s reverse setting from resetting itself.  In short, get things working and never ever touch the ASCOM driver! 

I’ve had several successful sessions since my last post, with the ASCOM reverse checkbox unchecked, NINA reverse set to ON, and the PHD2 reverse box left unchecked.  It seems that if you open the Nitecrawler ASCOM dialog – and certainly if you check the reverse box in the ASCOM dialog, even if you then uncheck it before doing anything else – it interferes with the NINA reverse setting in unpredictable ways.  The next time NINA connects the Nitecrawler, it might, or might not, have the reverse set to OFF.  You can reset this to ON, but then somehow PHD2 will often get the directions reversed.  As far as I can tell, if you mess with the ASCOM dialog you need to reset all the reverse settings to the correct settings, then shut down NINA and PHD2 and restart them.  You may need to reboot the whole PC.

I haven’t had any trouble since I figured this out.  It’s annoying that this is necessary, but at least I know how to make things work. 

[Bruce Waddington]

This sounds like a bug in the Nightcrawler ASCOM driver.  Have you raised the issue with them?

Regards,

Bruce

[Kevin Quin]

I did, but I think that unless someone else reports a specific problem related to the driver, it isn't going to get reworked.  For me, I discovered that whether the reverse box in the ASCOM dialog is checked or not, the rotator rotates the same direction when I run it in NINA.  Ron said he hasn't seen that behavior with TSX (which he uses instead of NINA) and that he hasn't heard reports of problems from other NINA users.  I'm sure I'm not the only one with this problem, but AFAIK no one else has raised it with Moonlite.

[Bruce Waddington]

My next question is whether you're opening the ASCOM properties dialog frequently.  That sounds like something people wouldn't normally do - they would set the options they need then not revisit them. Is there some property in the there that forces you to make changes every time?  It does seem odd that you're the only one talking about it.

[Kevin Quin]

Just following up on this:  problem not perfectly solved.  I discovered today that when NINA connects PHD2, my rotator reverse setting gets reset to OFF.  This is repeatable, although I haven't rebooted my PC since I found this issue.  

Here's what's happening for me:  in NINA's rotator setting, I set reverse to ON, then disconnect all equipment and shut down NINA. I  then restart NINA, connect to my Powerbox, then connect the camera, filter wheel, focuser and rotator, in order.  When the rotator connects, reverse is set to ON, as expected, because that's the way I had it last time when I shut down NINA.  Then I connect the mount, then PHD2.  After PHD2 connects, I check the rotator in NINA, and find that reverse has changed to OFF.

To answer Bruce's question, I almost never open the Nitecrawler's ASCOM dialog.  I definitely didn't this time, and haven't in weeks.

[Brian Valente]

How are you connecting PHD - via NINA or directly?

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[Kevin Quin]

Via NINA

[Brian Valente]

Have you tried connecting PHD2 directly without using NINA? PHD only reads values, it doesn't set them, so it may be originating elsewhere.

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[Kevin Quin]

Yes.  Same result.  If I connect PHD2 manually, after NINA has connected the other equipment, the reverse setting in NINA swtiches from ON to OFF as soon as I press the Connect All button in PHD2.  it's weird watching it unset itself.

[Roger Webster]

Hi all,

There's a fairly length discussion of this on Discord for NINA. I've been plagued by the "reset the rotator reverse switch randomly" issue for... a year or more. Bottom line: it's a bug (though where the bug lies is an item of debate :-) ).

The consensus on Discord is that you should use the Reverse setting in the ASCOM driver for the NIteCrawler rotator, set the value in NINA to OFF, and that should do it (don't change the setting in PHD2). For sanity's sake, I would also recalibrate PHD2, though my test two nights ago indicated I did not need to do a recalibration.

Fingers crossed that this really does permanently resolve the issue. For what it's worth, the NINA folks are contemplating removing the setting from NINA completely, though I won't bet on that one personally. The Discord discussion occurs around mid-November, 2025 (I don't have the posts handy). As you can kind of tell, there are (at least) three places you can set the Reverse flag, and not all of them persist correctly. The theory is that the one in the ASCOM driver does. 

Regards,

--Roger

[Kevin Quin]

On my setup the reverse flag in the ASCOM dialog literally does not work.  Whether it's checked or not, the rotator rotates in the same direction.  Try it out on your setup and look to see if the rotator actually changes directions.  I've been talking with the folks on the NINA discord about this for a couple months.  Lots of ideas, but we haven't come up with a solution that works for the long term.

[Roger Webster]

Hey Kevin,

Yes, I had found your posts on Discord -- this was the thread I didn't have handy. And you are quite correct, though I would summarize as "it's a mess." Last night when I connected everything the "Reverse" setting in NINA auto-set itself to ON from my having set it to OFF the previous night. Sigh. Disconnecting and looking at the ASCOM settings the Reverse checkbox is checked, which is the way I had set it the previous night. It also shows checked when accessed through PHD2. When everything was connected and everyone agreed on Reverse being checked, I was able to guide without doing a new Calibration.

From the setup instructions for the Nitecrawler there's this tidbit:

Not Implemented

Focuser temperature compensation, do we need this? 

Rotator Reverse.    

I have no idea if Reverse was implemented in a later driver and the instructions were not updated. Kind of doubt it.

At present, I can live with having "sticky" settings that make guiding work and allow me to set the Mechanical Angle I want for shot-framing -- both worked last night. It's the (seemingly) random changing of Reverse that makes things messy.

Cheers!

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