Again... immediate unrequested recalibration-

[dan baldwin]

The last time I reported this problem things were complicated by the fact that I had just set up a new imaging computer after my original had bit the dust. My new machine has been running fine and has had several imaging sessions with no PHD2 issues and using the same calibration I did several sessions ago. This time I can guarantee that I made no conscious changes to any PHD2 settings since then. The NINA sequence was the exact same sequence that I used successfully last night. 

When I started imaging a target tonight, the target had just crossed the meridian a few minutes previous and scope was pointing west.

All equipment was connected in both PHD2 and NINA.  As soon as guiding was requested PHD2 immediately started to do a calibration. The force calibration option in NINA was set to off. I let in do the calibration which took many minutes and then it reported that it needed a recalibration because it was too far from the equator. Guiding continued but was very poor. Last night the guiding on the same target was very good. 

I have no idea why PHD2 works for me for several sessions and then all of a sudden, with no apparent changes this happens? I would be so grateful for any help figuring this out!  

Here are the log files from tonight and last night.

https://openphdguiding.org/logs/dl/PHD2_logs_ftBn.zip

Best,

Dan

[Brian Valente]

HI Dan

iirc the specific issues last time were that you had multipled profiles and were importing/exporting them. The specific issues regarding forcing calibration came from all this, which isn't necessarily visible in the logs.

are you down to one profile now? if you have multiple, are you switching between them?

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Brian Valente

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[dan baldwin]

Thanks Brian-- I really do appreciate your's and Bruces help on this group, I wish there was some way I could reciprocate.

Apologies if this is a duplicate message. I sent this earlier but it never appeared.

Yes I am only using one profile which I have been using for some time and several sessions. Are you saying the recent log files dont shed any light on the forced calibration that occurred last night? If so, can you offer any suggestions on actions I can take to eliminate this happening in the future? My connection flow has been to connect to PMX+ using TSX, slew to target, then open PHD2 connect to guide cam and mount (double checking profile name and camera), then open NINA and connect to camera, filter,focuser,telescope and guider. Then I load NINA advanced sequence and start it. As I mentioned, two nights ago I imaged the same target as last night with no issues. The only difference was that two nights ago the target started east of the meridian and the imaging and guiding proceeded successfully before and after the automated meridian flip. Last night I started the NINA sequence when the target was a few minutes west of the meridian (scope was on east side of mount pointing west). I am assuming that since I have had successful guiding through several auto meridian flips, that meridian flip and side of pier settings are correct (in NINA, "side of pier is set ON"). Is this a valid assumption?

[dan baldwin]

Any suggestions or advice?

Thanks

[Bruce Waddington]

This is going to be hard to track down.  In all the years I've been doing this, I've never seen or heard of this problem and as far as I know, you're the only one that has it.  I think there's a very high likelihood that it's something you're doing intentionally or otherwise.  The log files don't record every action taken by the user so we can't see what it is.  In particular, it's imperative that you don't do any of these things at present:

1.  'Import' a profile

2.  Do a 'shift-click' on the Guide icon in the main window

3.   Change the Windows user id you're using or run PHD2 'as Admin'

If you aren't doing any of these things, I will probably have to build you an instrumented version of PHD2 that will record more about what you're doing.  In the meantime, there is something you can do that may avoid the problem and perhaps provide more evidence.  When you run PHD2, don't manually connect to the gear.  Just run it and then let NINA handle the profile selection and the connection process.  Either that, or remove all of that from your NINA script and do the connection process by hand - I recommend the first option.  Let's avoid a situation where there are two cooks in the kitchen, both trying to load a profile and get everything connected.

When you encounter the situation where an unwanted calibration has started, you can always stop the process, then use Tools/Modify Calibration/Restore calibration data to restore the previous calibration.  This isn't offered as a solution just a way to help you reduce the frustration.

Let us know if we're going to have to build you a test version of PHD2.

Regards,

Bruce

[Brian Valente]

In addition to Bruce's comments,  and just to clarify (and possibly repeat some things)

Here are the conditions in which PHD will initiate a new calibration

PHD

1. no existing/valid calibration for the profile

2. auto restore calibration not enabled

3. profile was changed (either externally or within PHD)

NINA

1. force calibration within sequence (which can be happen anywhere you start guiding)

2. force calibration after meridian flip within instructions

3. a profile change 

I may have missed something else in there, but that's pretty much off the top of my head.

You should investigate these things, half of which are outside of PHD

Reviewing your last two guidelogs, the 2-11 run imaged on both sides of meridian without recalibration, and your second night started up pier side east as did the prior night, so I don't think it's a side of pier thing (when there's a pier flip, it has to re-start guiding) 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/81a93706-c555-4cb5-b496-ffa513cef76en%40googlegroups.com.

[Bruce Waddington]

Hi Dan.  One other thing - could you tell us what kind of PC you're using and the cpu/memory configuration? 

Thanks,

Bruce

[dan baldwin]

Bruce and Brian-

Thank you both for your replies, especially given that this is an un-encountered issue. I can't convey how awkward it feels to be the first and only user with this particular issue. I have been imaging for decades and have never had the misfortune of being in that position, although until a couple of months ago, I have used TSX exclusively. Nonetheless, it is what it is. Responding to the listed do's, donts  and comments 

Donts from Bruce:

"1.  'Import' a profile"-- I have not imported a profile in weeks.

"2.  Do a 'shift-click' on the Guide icon in the main window"-- Same, I have not forced a calibration. I only did one calibration a couple of weeks ago using the CA.

"3.   Change the Windows user id you're using or run PHD2 'as Admin'"-- Same, I have not done this

From Brian:

"Here are the conditions in which PHD will initiate a new calibration

PHD

1. no existing/valid calibration for the profile"-- 

       AFAIK, I had the same calibration that I've been using for the last several sessions, 

since I dont know where or how calibrations are stored, I dont know how to check this ahead of time. When I  connected to PHD2, it did not indicate "no calibration" although I dont know if it would. 

"2. auto restore calibration not enabled" -- 

        Auto restore calibration has definitely always been enabled.

"3. profile was changed (either externally or within PHD)" -- 

      I did not alter PHD2 profile in PHD2 and AFAIK did not change any settings in NINA that would change anything for PHD2. As a matter of fact, the only changes to NINA that I made between the two nights in question were changes in when the image collection should start/stop.

"NINA

1. force calibration within sequence (which can be happen anywhere you start guiding)" -- 

The NINA sequence used has three instructions related to guiding: the first is 'restore guiding' and occurs early in the sequence as a trigger after 'Meridian Flip' and 'Center and Drift'. 'restore guiding' does not have the option to force calibration. The second is 'Start Guiding" and the 'Force Calibration' has always been OFF. The third is 'Stop Guiding' and this has no calibration options.

'2. force calibration after meridian flip within instruction"'-- 

        As mentioned above, 'restore guiding' is the instruction following Meridian Flip so no forced calibration here.

3. "a profile change" 

       I have not changed or altered my NINA profile in weeks, only slight changes in sequence relating to start/stops of collection looping. 

Bruce-- I would never request that you build a test version just to diagnose a problem that only I am having. I will take your advice to "When you run PHD2, don't manually connect to the gear.  Just run it and then let NINA handle the profile selection and the connection process".  This is what I did when I first started using NINA/PHD2, however I had an issue with PHD2 connecting to the imaging camera instead of the guiding camera (both ASI cams), so I started manually connecting in PHD2 first to ensure the correct camera.   Perhaps in NINA if I connect the imaging camera before I connect the guider this won't occur ?

The ASCOM driver for my imaging camera (ASI 620MM) does not present the option to use the cameras dew heater, so I must use the native driver to connect in NINA. I use the ASCOM driver for the guiding camera in PHD2. 

The second option you presented: 

"Either that, or remove all of that from your NINA script and do the connection process by hand "-- I'm unclear on what I would be removing? All guiding instructions? 

Also here are the PC specs:

Device name DansMini

Processor   11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-11390H @ 3.40GHz   3.42 GHz

Installed RAM     32.0 GB (31.7 GB usable)

Device ID   D2B24223-BD3D-4C21-AAE6-2504F96F4BC3

Product ID  00330-54382-16821-AAOEM

System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor

Pen and touch     No pen or touch input is available for this display

Thank you so much for your careful consideration of this issue

Best,

Dan

[Bruce Waddington]

Thanks Dan.  We're not going to just leave you in this situation so we're not giving up.  I've spent another chunk of time tonight pouring through the logs and have an idea about what may be going on.  If I'm right about it, the issue is performance-related rather than just being something you're doing.  That's why I asked about your computer although the system you're using seems very capable.  It's late here, so I'll pick this up tomorrow morning and discuss what I'm looking at. 

Regards,

Bruce

[Brian Valente]

What's instruction are you using in NINA regarding this

>>>>the first is 'restore guiding' and occurs early in the sequence as a trigger after 'Meridian Flip' and 'Center and Drift'.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/d7bb8707-2b87-4709-ab64-d3ad05b49cdcn%40googlegroups.com.

[dan baldwin]

Thank you Bruce--

I obtained the NINA templates from a YouTube guy named PatriotAstro. Here is a screenshot of that portion of my NINA sequence. I'm not sure what you mean by "What instructions are you using in NINA regarding this"-- I assumed that "restore guiding" is just a global trigger instruction that restores guiding if it is interrupted and is put here to resume guiding after the target is recentered following a meridian flip. Are there some further instructions associated with this? How do I see them? The only item in the drop down menu for this is the icon to disable current instruction.

I am slowly coming up to speed with NINA but am still a novice.

So grateful,

Dan

[Brian Valente]

Hi Dan

that was me asking.

https://nighttime-imaging.eu/docs/master/site/sequencer/advanced/triggers/#restore-guiding

I don't know why you are using center after drift and restore guiding (restore guiding is really related to center after drift, which is iintended for mounts with poor tracking https://nighttime-imaging.eu/docs/master/site/sequencer/advanced/triggers/#restore-guiding). 

I don't know if restore guiding is the cause of forcing PHD recalibrations but it seems suspect to me, and imo neither of these instructions are necessary given your higher end equipment. I can't think of anything else you have described that might cause this. 

At this point I don't think it has anything to do with PHD2. Bruce has been gracious enough to offer a test build just to confirm that, if it's truly vexing you and you want to get it resolved, you might take him up on that. 

>>>Are there some further instructions associated with this? How do I see them? The only item in the drop down menu for this is the icon to disable current instruction.

This is PHD2 forum, not the NINA discord ;) you might ask there. 

You might also rethink how you are using the advanced sequencer and maybe get more up to speed on how to configure it. Chad's templates are great for basic equipment setup and common problem avoidance, but it sounds like you're ready for the next step.

Brian

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/ee010eb6-ce7b-4b21-bc77-d783dcb7c760n%40googlegroups.com.

[dan baldwin]

Brian--  I very much appreciate your help, but I found your response to be a bit condescending.  You asked me a question and I answered it to the best of my ability, at the time I did not recognize that it was your question not Bruce's.  Obviously I know that this is a PHD2 forum. I dont see any "instructions" associated with the restore guiding., are you implying that there are? Chad explains very well what the center after drift instruction is for and from what I have seen it is useful. I have used it in every sequence and have seen it recenter the target when it's used. If you recommend removing it, I will. Although I dont see how "high end" equipment would cause this instruction to exacerbate the way PHD2 performs. Also what do you mean "the next step"? I'm not just blindly throwing NINA instructions out there. I've had many successful multi target ,all night sessions using Chad's templates and have modified them to suit my needs when necessary. I'm a novice but not ignorant.

Dan

[Brian Valente]

Hi Dan

I didn't mean to come across that way, so my apologies. 

>>>at the time I did not recognize that it was your question not Bruce's.

that's fine

>>>. I dont see any "instructions" associated with the restore guiding., are you implying that there are?

No, although I did send a link to the documentation on how that is intended to be used. I was originally asking what you were using because there are other instructions that may have additional commands with unintended consequences for PHD interactions (smart meridian flip, PHD tools, etc.) 

My point is that I don't think it's PHD that is doing this, but you seem to be suggesting it is. I (and others) have used NINA for years without this issue, so we know the two together work well. The only difference in your setup that i've seen compared to others is this additional sequence instruction. It's worth checking out. 

>>>I have used it in every sequence and have seen it recenter the target when it's used. 

Are you saying you have seen enough drift in your target between frames that it required NINA to recenter the target? 

I have never seen targets drifting as much as an arcminute on a Paramount setup that was polar aligned and performing as expected. My point re: high end mounts is the opposite of what you took, that high end mounts don't require recentering, so I'm not sure why you are using recenter/resume, but that's your call. That's all I was saying regarding rethinking your instruction set. 

>>>If you recommend removing it, I will.

It was just a suggestion to see if it would resolve your issue

>>>Also what do you mean "the next step"? I'm not just blindly throwing NINA instructions out there.

I'm not suggesting you are, but I want to make sure we're on the same page. Just to clarify, the recenter is invoked when the target drifts a specified number of arcminutes. The restore guiding is used in conjunction with the recenter instruction, not in conjunction with the meridian flip instruction. So I assume you are using it in combination with the recenter. 

On a mount like a paramount,  I would not expect your target to drift arcminutes from the origin, particularly if you are guiding. Are you experiencing this?

The 'next step' means the next step in trying to troubleshoot your issue.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/96887ac5-3120-4121-b5a9-80e04b4c96den%40googlegroups.com.

[dan baldwin]

Hi Brian,

OK, understood, I apologize as well for misunderstanding your intent.

I was confusing the actions of "Slew and center" with "Center after Drift" when I said I saw a target being re-centered. I just rewatched Chad's video and I see that 'center after drift' is, as you mentioned, applicable for large drifts.  I do not have arcminutes of drift whether guiding ( or not guiding)  and I agree with your recommendation to remove it. 

I do understand that the majority of users have no issues with NINA and PHD2 and I hope to become one of those :).  I don't know what is causing this unexpected recalibration that I experienced, I guess since the actions came from PHD2 I just naturally and probably incorrectly assumed that it was due to PHD2. Maybe removing the center and drift and restore guiding will be the solution. I will do this right away and report back.

Thanks Brian,

Dan

[Bruce Waddington]

Ok, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on and how to avoid it.  The problem is that you are manually opening the Connect Equipment dialog, then pursuing a one-at-a-time device connection procedure.  I guess you are doing this because you fear that the wrong profile or wrong devices are being connected.  This isn't necessary and it's causing the problem.  What happens is that Nina gets fired up and wants to load a profile and connect to the gear while the Connect Equipment dialog is still open.  The automatic loading of the last calibration doesn't occur until the Connect Equipment dialog is closed (for good reasons).  In the log for 2/12, it was obvious that Nina was sending these profile management commands to PHD2 before the calibration had been reloaded.  If you like to confirm that the correct profile is being loaded - and it is - just look at the title bar of PHD2 when you run it.  It will show you the name of the last profile you used and the one that will be loaded unless you or Nina explicitly change it.  So bottom line, if you stop using the Connect Equipment dialog and leaving it open when Nina is running, you probably won't see this problem again.  If you do want to connect to the equipment manually, use the shift-click feature on the Connect Equipment icon or use the 'Connect All' button in the dialog.  This will let the connection process run quickly and to completion in a matter of seconds rather than the minutes that are evident in your 2/12 log.  On a more general note, it is nearly always a bad idea to be doing things interactively when you have an automation app running that assumes it is in control of things.

Regards,

Bruce

[Brian Valente]

Yeah that could definitely be it.

If the manual connection issue ends up solving it, your other issue could be solved by using the native ZWO drivers in both NINA and PHD. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/c4f8c8f8-ed53-4c6e-9aea-35e2b43ec42cn%40googlegroups.com.

[dan baldwin]

Thank you so much Bruce and Brian-- That all makes sense. Just to be clear, my procedure was to open PHD2 and connect the equipment individually, then open NINA. I never connected the equipment in PHD2 after NINA was running. However I do distinctly recall leaving the dialog box open,  so that part now makes sense. I will use native drivers for both cameras also. Thanks again!

Best,

Dan

PS-- Bruce, On you tube I heard a talk you gave on PHD2 and you described how guiding used to be done in the old days. I appreciated that because I did a fair bit of guiding that way, using an OAG and keeping a star centered in the illuminated reticle crosshairs for a couple of freezing hours using an SLR with hypered film. I bought an ST4 the first year they were out.... magic!

[Brian Valente]

Let us know how it goes Dan

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/5b225040-d222-4865-b65c-3d6de5f3932an%40googlegroups.com.

[dan baldwin]

I'll do that Brian, thank you.