Major Issues with G11G

[Tucker Wood]

I'm losing sleep over this mount.  For the life of me I can't get it to work reliably.  I'm out of ideas at this point but just for grins you guys gotta see the logs from hell.

This was started at the meridian/equator, or very close to it.  The first 20 minutes were unguided for a check into PECPrep   Total periodic error was 7.87 which in itself isn't too bad, but the lines are like a sawtooth  Nothing smooth, just a constant jag. 

Obviously I'm no expert but it sure looks to me like something is really wrong.  Maybe in the electronics?  Did I initially setup something wrong in the new mount from day one?

I didn't know which Debug log to upload so I uploaded all of them for the session. 

[Tucker Wood]

I went back and noticed my PE Peak to Peak error is actually 5.69" using PECPrep.  So at least something is good about this mount.

[Andy Galasso]

Tucker,

For guiding issues we generally start out by looking at the guide log so it's not necessary to attach all those debug logs.

I took a quick look at your guide log and see that you did a couple unguided runs, and then tried guiding but got out-of-phase unstable oscillations in both RA and dec.  To me this looks like you were using an old calibration that was no longer valid.  It's ok to reuse your calibration as long as the orientation of the guide camera is the same.  It looks to me like your guide camera orientation changed since you last did a calibration.  I think if you re-calibrate you'll see much better results!

Andy

[Tucker Wood]

Thanks Andy, I'll be sure and recalibrate and try it out tomorrow.  This new mount has been beating me to a pulp.  I don't know what I'd do without help from knowledgeable people like yourself.  I guess I'd have the most expensive boat anchor in Arizona.

[Brian Valente]

Andy i was literally just fighting with exactly this issue and the same mount - i recalibrated but it still seems to have the swaing back and forth. look at runs 4 5(calibration) and then 6. 

It wasn't terrible results, but i can clearly see the constant back and forth

Any tips?

Thanks Brian

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Brian Valente

portfolio brianvalentephotography.com 

[Tucker Wood]

Wow Brian, I can't believe how precisely your mount mirrors the performance of mine.  If I didn't know different I'd swear you stole my mount! 

 

I sure hope Andy has a few ideas on this seeing as he used to use a G11.

 

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 12:20:13 AM UTC-7, Brian Valente wrote:

Andy i was literally just fighting with exactly this issue and the same mount - i recalibrated but it still seems to have the swaing back and forth. look at runs 4 5(calibration) and then 6. 

It wasn't terrible results, but i can clearly see the constant back and forth

Any tips?

Thanks Brian

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Andy Galasso <andy.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tucker,

For guiding issues we generally start out by looking at the guide log so it's not necessary to attach all those debug logs.

I took a quick look at your guide log and see that you did a couple unguided runs, and then tried guiding but got out-of-phase unstable oscillations in both RA and dec.  To me this looks like you were using an old calibration that was no longer valid.  It's ok to reuse your calibration as long as the orientation of the guide camera is the same.  It looks to me like your guide camera orientation changed since you last did a calibration.  I think if you re-calibrate you'll see much better results!

Andy

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[Brian Valente]

Yes – but then again we’re talking sub 2” which for me was ½ a pixel

 

It’s just irritating what it’s doing.

 

I found adjusting aggressiveness and changing exposure time seems to help a bit

 

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

 

Brian Valente

Brianvalentephotography.com

[Brian Valente]

Tucker looking at my last run, the total guide RMS was 0.53 pix average, with peaks of 1.31pix RA and 0.74 pix DEC

 

That’s more than acceptable guiding and if I was on an OAG, it would be over and done with

 

The problem is my guidescope is half the focal length of my imaging scope, so I need double the accuracy ;)

 

You might confirm your scale and see if you aren’t chasing unnecessary accruacy

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

 

Brian Valente

Brianvalentephotography.com

 

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tucker Wood
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 7:38 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding <open-phd...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [open-phd-guiding] Re: Major Issues with G11G

 

Wow Brian, I can't believe how precisely your mount mirrors the performance of mine.  If I didn't know different I'd swear you stole my mount! 

[bw_msgboard]

Hi Brian.  As you know, your RA tracking is not nearly as good as Dec so you will probably get elongated stars if you image at a long focal length.  Have you applied a periodic error correction to the mount?  There’s a strong residual error with a period of around 40 seconds, which I think is an integer harmonic of the worm period on the G11.  If that’s the case, a PEC might help quite a bit.

 

 

Cheers,

Bruce

 

---

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Valente
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 12:20 AM
To: Andy Galasso
Cc: Open PHD Guiding
Subject: Re: [open-phd-guiding] Re: Major Issues with G11G

 

Andy i was literally just fighting with exactly this issue and the same mount - i recalibrated but it still seems to have the swaing back and forth. look at runs 4 5(calibration) and then 6. 

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[bw_msgboard]

Hi guys.  I think this illustrates why we always, always, always want to look at performance in units of arc-sec/px.  Statistics that use px are basically useless – they can’t be compared across different set-ups, can’t be related to typical seeing conditions, pretty much can’t be used for anything.  So in this case, the total guiding RMS was 1.02 arc-sec, which is ok but not great.  Beyond that, the RA RMS was about 2x the Dec RMS, which indicates that the guiding performance wasn’t limited by seeing – there is something that can probably be improved in RA tracking (see earlier post).  And we can make these assessments because we’re using angular measurements, so it doesn’t matter about the focal length of the guide scope or any of that other stuff.

 

Hope this helps to clear things up,

Bruce

 

---

[Brian Valente]

Bruce – yes and no

 

Yes, all that is true

 

But no, if I was imaging at that focal length, all that would not be visible because it’s sub-pixel

 

At least, that’s my feeling

 

FYI the un-binned subs at double the focal length look pretty dang good, so there’s also something to be said about check your results – the proof is in the pudding

 

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

 

Brian Valente

Brianvalentephotography.com

 

[Brian Valente]

Yeah I’m working on the PEC. Ray with PemPro is working on an advanced version, but still working out the bugs there

 

I’ll take another stab at PEC and see if it improves

 

A 40 sec period is not going to be easily smoothed by guiding

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

 

Brian Valente

Brianvalentephotography.com

 

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Brian Valente

portfolio brianvalentephotography.com 

[Tucker Wood]

This mount really requires an intimate relationship.  Every night I go out I try something different to improve its performance.  In my first week of ownership I've tried a bunch of stuff, read a TON of stuff, and for tonight I will try:

1. Pulled out the stock RA clutch disc and cut a new one out of automotive gasketing material.

2. Pulled the RA motor and gearbox off and removed the ring gear cover (that 3rd screw is a pain).

3. Pulled the plastic coupler off so I could check and adjust the worm gear (a lot of sticking action there as I rolled it with my finger).

4. Cleaned out all of the original grease from the worm and ring gear.  Small pieces of grit were found

5. Tried various positions of worm engagement and by far the loosest fit possible yielded the smoothest performance.  The smoothness now is seriously better than before.

6. Aligned the plastic coupler and spur gear to worm.  That coupler adds a fair bit of resistance to the mix, but after 15 minutes of messing with it I found its happiest spot.

7. Reassembled everything and anxious to try it out.

8. Will recalibrate first thing after firing up PHD2.

Hope it improves my performance because I can't think of anything else to do. 

One thing I did check while rolling the worm was put some east weight pressure against the ring gear to take up the gear slop.  And reading about putting some east bias weight on the CW shaft I noticed everyone says put a SLIGHT bias. And after testing it the word slight means REALLY slight.  So what I'm going to do is balance as perfectly as possible and run it.  If I see any large deviations in RA I will very slowly move the weight out ever so little, or in depending on which side of the pier I'm viewing from.  

[Brian Valente]

This is a brand new G11G?

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

 

Brian Valente

Brianvalentephotography.com

 

--

[Tucker Wood]

It's brand new Brian.  

I'm not real confident that anything I did is going to help, but I just have to keep trying.  It's my nature.  I'm like a dog with a bone on stuff like this.

[Tucker Wood]

Well last night went way better than I could have hoped.  I could actually guide anywhere I pointed the scope.  This hasn't been the case since I got the mount.  And my RA numbers are almost exactly what my DEC numbers are which was a surprise.

I went back this morning and pulled the RA again to see if I could get a little more out of it and sure enough I was able to tighten the worm mesh quite a bit yet keeping the movement silky smooth.  One other thing is that darned plastic coupler.  It's a pain to align but I noticed that cleaning ALL oils off the entire coupler helps.  It seems the lubricants actually make the thing stick a bit.  

So pleased with the results I pulled the DEC and went through it too.  Hopefully I'll get even better guiding tonight.

[Brian Valente]

Tucker I'd love to see your guide logs. If you've cracked the code is love to see your line adjustments!

B

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[Tucker Wood]

LOL, no you need to see my before logs OMG.  Right now I can't get a good calibration.  Keep getting this RA guide rate is 144% of my DEC rate.  But I can't find a way to set each guide rate independently.  If I recall you mentioned it can be done in ASCOM?

[bw_msgboard]

Hi Tucker.  You are almost certainly heading down the wrong road, it might be better to submit a guide log and let us help you out.  The most likely problem is that there’s a bunch of backlash in Dec and it isn’t being cleared before calibration actually starts.  But that’s just a guess, the logs tell all.  Monkeying around with the guide speeds in the mount will probably just put you further into the wilderness. <g>

 

Or if you don’t want to do that for some reason, try moving the mount at guide speed north for 20 seconds before you actually start the calibration.  That will almost certainly clear any backlash.

 

Bruce

 

---

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tucker Wood

Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 7:26 PM
To: Open PHD Guiding

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[Tucker Wood]

Bruce, I think I was calibrating in the wrong place.  I subsequently aimed at the meridian/equator and it calibrated fine.  Though I wish my review of the calibration looked better.  It's not nice and pretty like most of the calibrations I see.  But, it seems to work ok because I'm finally getting sub arc-sec guides (.6 to .9) no matter where I point the scope.  And that to me is a huge success compared to a week ago.  My RA and DEC are basically equal too without one overshadowing the other like before.

I'm sure there's more room for improvement and I'll post some logs for help in getting the last bit I can get out of this mount.  Thanks for all the help, it is appreciated.

[Brian Valente]

haha damn! well i'm interested in seeing your guide logs. If we're in the same boat, anything I could figure out would probably apply to you and hopefully be helpful. I've been PE training to try and get rid of the 40 sec error and I haven't made much progress. 

B

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[Tucker Wood]

Well here you go Brian.  Look at these horrible calibrations.  Now to me, it appears there is something wrong with the mount.  For instance I know you like guiding at .8 sidereal.  I can't do it, not even close.  My best is .4, half of yours.  That doesn't sound right to me.  One of those calibrations is an attempt using .8.

The RA gremlins have returned for sure.  Though the last couple of guides in the log look ok, there sure aren't what I expected by plunking down my hard money on this mount. 

Maybe I'm just doing something wrong (hopefully), but for me I've exhausted any ideas I have.  I have tuned the entire worm assembly on both drives to the absolute maximum I can take them without binding things up.  Coupler alignments are spot on too.

I need help...

Tuck

[Brian Valente]

I'm guiding at 0.8x because I set it that way. the default it 0.5x which makes perfect sense why you are at where you are

the thing that grabs me most is your RA calibrations - they are a mess. do you have PEC turned on?

B

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[Tucker Wood]

One of the calibrations was with a 4-worm cycle PEC turned on.  PEC screws up everything so I won't be revisiting PEC any time soon.

The calibrations to me look like huge amounts of slop in the drive train somewhere.  I'm going to dive back into the mount today and see how tight I can make things without binding.  For sure something has to be done.

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 8:54:55 AM UTC-7, Brian Valente wrote:

I'm guiding at 0.8x because I set it that way. the default it 0.5x which makes perfect sense why you are at where you are

the thing that grabs me most is your RA calibrations - they are a mess. do you have PEC turned on?

B

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Tucker Wood <sornb...@cox.net> wrote:

Well here you go Brian.  Look at these horrible calibrations.  Now to me, it appears there is something wrong with the mount.  For instance I know you like guiding at .8 sidereal.  I can't do it, not even close.  My best is .4, half of yours.  That doesn't sound right to me.  One of those calibrations is an attempt using .8.

The RA gremlins have returned for sure.  Though the last couple of guides in the log look ok, there sure aren't what I expected by plunking down my hard money on this mount. 

Maybe I'm just doing something wrong (hopefully), but for me I've exhausted any ideas I have.  I have tuned the entire worm assembly on both drives to the absolute maximum I can take them without binding things up.  Coupler alignments are spot on too.

I need help...

Tuck

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[Brian Valente]

From my own experience I think your PEC is still on.

I would really recommend not fiddling with the hardware unless it's absolutely necessary. These mounts are tuned by the guys at Losmandy, and looking at your 'slop' it looks an awful lot like my bad PEC being ON rather than slop in the hardware.

hth

B

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[Brian Valente]

PS you might want to increase your exposure to around 2-3 sec, it kind of looks like your chasing seeing a bit with a 1 sec exposure

B

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[Tucker Wood]

You would think that, right?  I've tried 2,3,4,5,6 second exposures and the longer they are the worse it gets.  The settings have to be real tight so as not to lose the star.  I went back through all of my logs from the first day I received the mount and I have yet to get a clean calibration.  In fact the first day I never did get a calibration, they all failed.

I even called Scott this morning for some answers and he said he hasn't ever heard of this problem before (erratic RA).  He said he'd email me the PHD2 settings that work best for the mount.  Heck, I'll try anything at this point.

[bw_msgboard]

Hi guys.  I’m not sure where you’re taking all this, so I’ll just offer a view observations and then leave it alone.

 

1. You had a 20 minute period of guiding where the total rms was 0.9 arc-sec.  So how bad can the mount be when you are also running with 1-sec exposures and a too-small RA min-move.
2. The calibration you completed at 18:47 is fine, the computed rates make perfect sense for a 0.5x mount guide speed.  I have no idea what happened with the previous 2 calibrations.  Once you get a good calibration, just keep using it, there’s no point in repeating them unless you change mount guide speeds or rotate the camera. 
3. You changed the mount guide speed to 0.8x at 20:28 and got a good calibration.  Then you changed it again at 20:35 back to 0.4x and recalibrated.  Why are you doing all this?  Wouldn’t it make more sense to set the guide speed at 0.8x, get a good calibration, then leave it alone?  None of this has anything to do with whatever underlying problems there are.
4. I can’t imagine how Scott can give you any canned PHD2 guide parameters without knowing the details of your image scale.  The PHD2 defaults are no doubt what you should be using while you try to figure things out.
5. As Brian said, using the old PEC will be a disaster because you’ve been changing the gear mesh.  The earlier phase information needed for the PEC is probably lost.  So unless you are 100% sure that PEC is disabled, it isn’t possible to diagnose any problems in RA.

 

If you want to talk to Scott about the mount’s RA behavior, you might want to focus on this:

 

 

 

 

Do you see the abrupt spikes in the RA tracking, with excursions as high at 7.5 arc-sec?  That looks to me like something wrong in the RA drive system, and these things can’t be guided out.

 

Good luck with it,

Bruce

 

 

 

---

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tucker Wood
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:37 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding
Subject: Re: [open-phd-guiding] Re: Major Issues with G11G

 

You would think that, right?  I've tried 2,3,4,5,6 second exposures and the longer they are the worse it gets.  The settings have to be real tight so as not to lose the star.  I went back through all of my logs from the first day I received the mount and I have yet to get a clean calibration.  In fact the first day I never did get a calibration, they all failed.

--

[Brian Valente]

It sounds like there is a 40 second periodic error that should be addressed through PEC, but otherwise it's a solid mount

Tucker my main concern is those big excursions your guiding shows. I'm worried that you did a bunch of unnecessary hardware adjustments that may have mucked things up for you. I haven't seen your mount so I can't say for sure, but I don't see that kind of thing on my mount, and I know Scott personally tunes every mount that leaves his shop, so I always point people to looking at things like correct settings, mount setup, PA, PEC, etc. before mucking with the hardware. 

historically Losmandy mounts benefitted from fiddling with the hardware, but the G11G is really solid out of the gate.

Just got to figure out how to get rid of that 40 sec hassle.

B

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 1:16 PM, bw_msgboard <bw_m...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Hi guys.  I’m not sure where you’re taking all this, so I’ll just offer a view observations and then leave it alone.

 

1. You had a 20 minute period of guiding where the total rms was 0.9 arc-sec.  So how bad can the mount be when you are also running with 1-sec exposures and a too-small RA min-move.
2. The calibration you completed at 18:47 is fine, the computed rates make perfect sense for a 0.5x mount guide speed.  I have no idea what happened with the previous 2 calibrations.  Once you get a good calibration, just keep using it, there’s no point in repeating them unless you change mount guide speeds or rotate the camera. 
3. You changed the mount guide speed to 0.8x at 20:28 and got a good calibration.  Then you changed it again at 20:35 back to 0.4x and recalibrated.  Why are you doing all this?  Wouldn’t it make more sense to set the guide speed at 0.8x, get a good calibration, then leave it alone?  None of this has anything to do with whatever underlying problems there are.
4. I can’t imagine how Scott can give you any canned PHD2 guide parameters without knowing the details of your image scale.  The PHD2 defaults are no doubt what you should be using while you try to figure things out.
5. As Brian said, using the old PEC will be a disaster because you’ve been changing the gear mesh.  The earlier phase information needed for the PEC is probably lost.  So unless you are 100% sure that PEC is disabled, it isn’t possible to diagnose any problems in RA.

 

If you want to talk to Scott about the mount’s RA behavior, you might want to focus on this:

 

 

 

 

Do you see the abrupt spikes in the RA tracking, with excursions as high at 7.5 arc-sec?  That looks to me like something wrong in the RA drive system, and these things can’t be guided out.

 

Good luck with it,

Bruce

 

 

 

From: open-phd-guiding@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd-guiding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tucker Wood
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:37 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding
Subject: Re: [open-phd-guiding] Re: Major Issues with G11G

 

You would think that, right?  I've tried 2,3,4,5,6 second exposures and the longer they are the worse it gets.  The settings have to be real tight so as not to lose the star.  I went back through all of my logs from the first day I received the mount and I have yet to get a clean calibration.  In fact the first day I never did get a calibration, they all failed.

 

I even called Scott this morning for some answers and he said he hasn't ever heard of this problem before (erratic RA).  He said he'd email me the PHD2 settings that work best for the mount.  Heck, I'll try anything at this point.

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 10:59:31 AM UTC-7, Brian Valente wrote:

PS you might want to increase your exposure to around 2-3 sec, it kind of looks like your chasing seeing a bit with a 1 sec exposure

 

B

 

 

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[Tucker Wood]

Well, had the mount calibrated out of the box I wouldn't have had to mess with it.  First day, 4 failed calibrations.   I checked today and found my RA gearbox has a crack in it.  It also has a tight spot in it that I mentioned to Scott.  He didn't seem concerned.  

I'm just disappointed in the mount because I was expecting better performance.  

My next step is going to be to re calibrate doing .8 guide speed and let it rip.  I'll do 2 second exposures and see how it turns out.  I'll also do a brand new equipment wizard so everything is baselined then go from there.

Bruce was asking why I recalibrated so much was because I was changing my guide speeds.  Also, I have a helical focuser on my OAG so everyttime I focus the camera the camera rotates.

I also told Scott over the phone that I had torn into the mount and he was unconcerned about it.  

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 2:30:40 PM UTC-7, Brian Valente wrote:

It sounds like there is a 40 second periodic error that should be addressed through PEC, but otherwise it's a solid mount

Tucker my main concern is those big excursions your guiding shows. I'm worried that you did a bunch of unnecessary hardware adjustments that may have mucked things up for you. I haven't seen your mount so I can't say for sure, but I don't see that kind of thing on my mount, and I know Scott personally tunes every mount that leaves his shop, so I always point people to looking at things like correct settings, mount setup, PA, PEC, etc. before mucking with the hardware. 

historically Losmandy mounts benefitted from fiddling with the hardware, but the G11G is really solid out of the gate.

Just got to figure out how to get rid of that 40 sec hassle.

B

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 1:16 PM, bw_msgboard <bw_m...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Hi guys.  I’m not sure where you’re taking all this, so I’ll just offer a view observations and then leave it alone.

 

1. You had a 20 minute period of guiding where the total rms was 0.9 arc-sec.  So how bad can the mount be when you are also running with 1-sec exposures and a too-small RA min-move.
2. The calibration you completed at 18:47 is fine, the computed rates make perfect sense for a 0.5x mount guide speed.  I have no idea what happened with the previous 2 calibrations.  Once you get a good calibration, just keep using it, there’s no point in repeating them unless you change mount guide speeds or rotate the camera. 
3. You changed the mount guide speed to 0.8x at 20:28 and got a good calibration.  Then you changed it again at 20:35 back to 0.4x and recalibrated.  Why are you doing all this?  Wouldn’t it make more sense to set the guide speed at 0.8x, get a good calibration, then leave it alone?  None of this has anything to do with whatever underlying problems there are.
4. I can’t imagine how Scott can give you any canned PHD2 guide parameters without knowing the details of your image scale.  The PHD2 defaults are no doubt what you should be using while you try to figure things out.
5. As Brian said, using the old PEC will be a disaster because you’ve been changing the gear mesh.  The earlier phase information needed for the PEC is probably lost.  So unless you are 100% sure that PEC is disabled, it isn’t possible to diagnose any problems in RA.

 

If you want to talk to Scott about the mount’s RA behavior, you might want to focus on this:

 

 

 

 

Do you see the abrupt spikes in the RA tracking, with excursions as high at 7.5 arc-sec?  That looks to me like something wrong in the RA drive system, and these things can’t be guided out.

 

Good luck with it,

Bruce

 

 

 

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tucker Wood
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:37 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding
Subject: Re: [open-phd-guiding] Re: Major Issues with G11G

 

You would think that, right?  I've tried 2,3,4,5,6 second exposures and the longer they are the worse it gets.  The settings have to be real tight so as not to lose the star.  I went back through all of my logs from the first day I received the mount and I have yet to get a clean calibration.  In fact the first day I never did get a calibration, they all failed.

 

I even called Scott this morning for some answers and he said he hasn't ever heard of this problem before (erratic RA).  He said he'd email me the PHD2 settings that work best for the mount.  Heck, I'll try anything at this point.

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 10:59:31 AM UTC-7, Brian Valente wrote:

PS you might want to increase your exposure to around 2-3 sec, it kind of looks like your chasing seeing a bit with a 1 sec exposure

 

B

 

 

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[Brian Valente]

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 7:25:43 PM UTC-7, Tucker Wood wrote:

LOL, no you need to see my before logs OMG.  Right now I can't get a good calibration.  Keep getting this RA guide rate is 144% of my DEC rate.  But I can't find a way to set each guide rate independently.  If I recall you mentioned it can be done in ASCOM?

Tucker look on the web interface for the mount. You'll see guide rate for DEC is broken out separately. This is the only place i've seen them and been able to adjust directly.

I don't know if ASCOM or other ways of changing guide rate automatically change DEC, but whenever i've gone to 0.8x i look and DEC is always at 0.5x

hth

B 

[Tucker Wood]

Ah, the web interface.  No wonder I couldn't find it.  That will be something interesting to experiment with.

Thanks Brian