$10au reward for help: PHD2 guiding probs after slewing with Stellarium

[Michael Bibby]

(Serious offer for reward for information that leads to resolution).

The symptom of the fault I'm experiencing is that after I pause guiding to use Stellarium to slew to a different target, and then platesolve and sync with Sharpcap, I can't get PHD2 guiding to work again. The camera loops, selects stars, but when I restart guiding the RA wanders far off the line and doesn't seem to respond to pulse commands. When the fault occurs I can't calibrate either, and when I try to use the manual controls within PHD2 to move the mount (to test PHD's connetion to the mount) it won't move. All this indicates that something has stopped PHD2 from communicating with the mount.

When the fault occurs the only thing that I have found that works to restore guiding is to basically close all three programs and then reopen them. I have tried to simply disconnect PHD2 from the mount at the 'connect equipment' page and then reconnect to see if that would work but doesn't.

I'm using windows 10. All three programs seem to connect just fine to the EQMOD. I recently updated Stellarium and that didn't fix the problem. I read someone suggest changing permissions for the programs to see if that helped and so I changed all three programs to 'run as administrator' but that had no effect. Someone else suggested making sure that all three programs were using the same EQMOD driver. I'm not sure how to check that but when I open all three programs (Stellarium, Sharpcap and PHD2) and get them to open EQMOD, the little window within EQMOD says V2.0W, so I guess that means that they are all using the same driver?

Here is the log of my latest session: https://openphdguiding.org/logs/dl/PHD2_logs_dSes.zip

I've included some screenshots of my 'telescope control' settings within Stellarium and my EQMOD settings in PHD2.

Any help greatly appreciated and happy to pay for someone's time and effort!

[Michael Bibby]

Next session I will try to further isolate the fault and work out whether it is Stellarium or Sharpcap that is somehow interfering with PHD2. I.e., once guiding is working, I will pause guiding, use the ASCOM controls within Sharpcap to move the mount a bit, and then see if I can get PHD2 guiding to resume; and when I have guiding working, I will pause guiding, use Stellarium to slew to a different target, skip the platesolving through Sharpcap, and see if I can get PHD2 to guide again.

I'll update this thread with any new information.

[Bruce Waddington]

Sounds good.  Here’s another thing you can try.  With all the apps connected to the EQMOD driver, open the Windows Task Manager and look at the list of running processes.  You should only see one entry for EQMOD.  If you see two, then you have a problem with mis-matched application permissions – in other words, one or more are running with Admin privileges and one or more are running without.  Unless there is some specific documented reason for having to run one of the apps with Admin privileges, you shouldn’t do it for any of the usual astro apps.

 

If this doesn’t identify the problem, you should probably start looking for log files from EQMOD and the other two apps. Having those might allow us to see what’s going on when the mount no longer responds to guide commands.

 

Good luck,

Bruce

[John Deans]

I am curious about what the OP is doing here.  If one wishes to move the mount after commencing a guiding session, is in not necessary to (1) pause guiding and (2) disconnect PHD2 from the mount and only then use Stellarium or another application to move the mount.  (....following which one disconnects Stellarium, reconnect the mount in PHD2 and then recommence guiding?  If not, my experience is that PHD fusses big time.

I'd love to know if I am executing too many steps, since it is a hassle.

Thanks!

[Michael Bibby]

Thanks Bruce, I've already changed all my programs so they are on the same permission (non admin, I recently tried the opposite of having all three programs run in admin mode, but that didn't solve the problem, and I think in that case EQMOD was running as non admin), and I'll check the task manager to see what that reveals. I wouldn't know where to look for log files for EQMOD, but I will look into it. Just waiting for some clear sky's to do some testing.

Another suggestion (on another thread here) was this:

"Some mounts and mount drivers can’t handle multiple applications trying to send instructions to the mount. Could that be the problem you are having? As mentioned previously  Ascom Device Hub is designed to solve that problem.  To try it, don’t connect your apps to your mount driver.  Instead use the Ascom chooser in PHD2, Stellarium, Sharpcap, etc. to select Device Hub for the mount.  You then configure Device Hub to connect to and control the mount."

My mount (hopefully I already mentioned it above) is the Heq5 pro. I don't really know how to use ASCOM Device Hub, but I will look into it.  

John, can you clarify the sentence before "If not, my experience is that PHD fusses big time"? This was my normal workflow BEFORE I started guiding: I would plug everything in to my laptop, turn on the mount, open Stellarium and Sharpcap, connect camera in Sharpcap, open up the Telescope Control panel in Stellarium, polar align in Sharpcap, park the mount (i.e., to finish the polar alignment routine in Sharpcap), unpark the mount with EQMOD, use Stellarium to slew mount, then use Sharpcap to platesolve and sync, and then start imaging. When I started guiding this was my workflow: plug everything in, turn on the mount, open PHD2, connect the camera and mount in PHD2, open Stellarium and Sharpcap, basically do everything the same as before, and then after platesolving and syncing in Sharpcap, when I'm on target, start guiding (using predictive periodic error correction algorithm), and then start imaging. My understanding was that when I had finished imaging, all I needed to do was to go to Stellarium, slew the mount to a different target (which would automatically stop PHD2 from guiding), and repeat the whole procedure. But because I have run into the problem that I have described in this thread, I was experimenting with disconnecting and reconnecting the mount within PHD2, to see if that would help PHD2 to communicate with the mount, turning off all the programs, turning them back on, etc., and it seemed like only the later helped PHD2 to connect properly to the mount so that it responds properly to its guiding pulses.

I really appreciate all the suggestions, because I would completely lost otherwise!

[Michael Bibby]

NOTE: I was just taking a look in EQMOD and noticed the wavy line that indicates that pec is being applied on the mount while sidereal tracking. After I watched Astroblokes video using the EQMOD recording ER and applying PEC I tried it out a few months ago (before I was guiding) but it didn't seem to work the same for me as it did for him in the video so I abandoned it (or so I thought). In the PEC options in EQMOD I just unloaded the saved file (button with X on it) and that removed the wavy line on sidereal tracking. So maybe my mount was applying PEC? Is it possible that that would have caused the problem?

[Brian Valente]

>>>So maybe my mount was applying PEC? Is it possible that that would have caused the problem?

If there was a conflict with PEC, you would see poor guiding results. From your description it sounds like the applications are disconnecting, which is not something that would happen from this

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[John Deans]

I am focusing on this part of the post: " My understanding was that when I had finished imaging, all I needed to do was to go to Stellarium, slew the mount to a different target (which would automatically stop PHD2 from guiding), and repeat the whole procedure."   

In my experience - which is limited to a Celestron SE mount connected to a Windows 11 environment where I use Stellarium for mount movement and target selection - after an imaging session for a given object, I first stop guiding and then disconnect PHD2 from the mount.  I then start to Stellarium mount connection, move the mount, and then reconnect to PHD2.  

I may be doing some unnecessary steps, however I find that PHD2 then will issue no lost star warnings.  Perhaps I could just ignore these warnings.  I will have to test things further.  I do know that what I do routinely works.  However it may be unnecessary.

John

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[Brian Valente]

Hi John

>>>I may be doing some unnecessary steps, however I find that PHD2 then will issue no lost star warnings.  Perhaps I could just ignore these warnings.

If your current process works for you, i don't see any need to change it. However it should be unnecessary to stop/restart PHD. you can enable "stop guiding on slew" option to have PHD automatically stop guiding when it detects a slew. it's in advanced section under Guiding tab

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[John Deans]

Ah.  That was a big miss.  Thanks.

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[Ken Self]

There are a number of possibly conflating things going on here. My observations are:
- You calibrated at almost 60 degrees declination (south). Not a good idea. Try calibrating closer to declination zero.
- You obviously had issues getting a calibration to even start. Not sure why that is but could beindicative of other issues.
- You started guiding after a successful calibration without moving the scope and that looks ok except for some large glitches.
- I see you are using a 50mm guide scope whichI assume is one of those finer guider setups. These are notorious for guiding issues due to their mechanical instability. This may be a source of the glitches.
- You then moved the scope and the next guiding run (20:39:39) started drifting in RA. I assume this is where you used Stellarium and Sharpcap. But the issue could just as easily be a sagging guide scope
- I checked the debug log for this run and there are several instances where the driver responds to PHD with "IsGuiding returns 1"
- The next guiding run looks ok at first. I assume this is where you restarted the software. But then after 5 minutes or so it started drifting off in RA and PHD was unable to fix it.You were messing with the PPEC settings presumably to try to resolve this. There were also some big glitches earlier in the run that PHD was able to correct. There was also a slight drift in Dec when the runaway RA drift started.
- The next run was at a slightly different position and had runaway drift in RA. About 400 arcsec in 35s at about 22 deg dec so close(ish) to sidereal rate suggesting tracking may have been turned off.
- Next run was ok.
The you moved to scope closer to the meridian and guiding started ok for 45 sconds then started to drift away in RA and PHD was unable to stop it.
- Final run was good with some occasional large glitches and lots of lost star events.

My thoughts:
I suspect the main issues are mechanical rather than software.
The guidescope is suspect but there may also be balance problems in RA
Having EQMOD PEC might be an issue so make sure it is disabled

My suggestions would be:
Calibrate nearer to declination 0 degrees.
Send a photo of your set up; especially the guide scope.
For now I'd switch to the default guide algorithms and settings while troubleshooting. The PPEC algorithm is very good but mechanical problems could fool it into doing the wrong things.
Don't mess with the default guide settings while guiding. It only makes it harder to analyse whats going on and rarely has any impact on major guiding issues.

[Bruce Waddington]

Hi Ken.  I think what you’re talking about are mostly down-stream problems that will need to be sorted out when we have consistent control of the mount.  The OP is new to all this and isn’t yet conversant with how to get everything connected properly so we’re trying to take things one step at a time.  The current problem can be summarized pretty easily.  Look at the calibration attempt that was attempted at 20:31:08 – you can see that nothing is happening with the RA guide pulses, the mount isn’t responding at all.  Yet the next attempt at 20:32:32 moved the mount correctly.  Yes, it was in a bad part of the sky but no matter.  The only thing that happened in those 90-odd seconds is that the OP disconnected all the apps, re-started PHD2, and re-connected it to the mount.  I think that’s the problem to get sorted out and it’s why we’re harping away at user-privilege levels and trying to find out what Stellarium is doing.

 The thread has gone idle because we’ve given the OP some things to look at but he hasn’t had any clear skies to do that.  In the interim, he’s fidgeting around looking at other things that are unlikely to have anything to do with the problem but that’s understandable frustration.

 

Regards,

Bruce

[Michael Bibby]

Thanks again for all the suggestions, yes, I don't know when I'll have a chance to test again, clouds as far as the eye can see..

As for the mounting of my guidescope, I'm aware of the problem of differential flexure and the need for mechanical stability and this is something I have been keeping an eye on at the start and end of each session: ensuring that everything is tightened up and there is no play at all. I know its considered bad practice to use the finderscope mount on these Newt's to secure the guidescope (which is why I'm using a footing with two screws and not the one that came with the OTA) but it seems to be working well for now (I've got a mounting plate for the guidescope but decided to keep it in this configuration because it helps to reduce the moment arm having the guidescope and camera on the underside of the OTA, that, and it makes it easier for me to move and store the scope like this).

My mount is permanently attached to a pier and I'm able to maintain a very good polar alignment. I feel like I have effectively eliminated the possibility of any mechanical issues causing me problems.

[Michael Bibby]

At this stage, I'd be surprised if anything is different than last time. Bruce, what do you think about this idea of connecting all the programs to 'ASCOM device hub' as someone suggested? (I don't know how to do that, but is that something to look at in your opinion?) I guess I'm just getting ahead of myself and being impatient as you said, more testing to further isolate the fault condition is what I really need...

b.t.w., love your images with the Planewave 20", great scope, and it sounds like you have a very good location. Again, grateful to the diverse community of enthusiasts helping each other.

[Bruce Waddington]

I just spent 30 minutes or so finding and installing Stellarium and getting it connected to my own ASCOM driver and running it concurrently with PHD2 and other apps.  From what I've seen, it can be done but I think you should spend some of your cloudy night time looking at better alternatives.  My sense of things is that telescope control was at the bottom of the priority list in Stellarium, and I found the whole telescope connection process to be cumbersome and rather error-prone.  If you need to stick with free software, why don't you take a look at Cartes du Ciel.  It has been doing ASCOM telescope control for a long time and I think it has a better chance of working correctly with EQMOD and other astro apps that are connected to the mount. As one data point, their documentation on their telescope interface uses EQMOD as the example.   Just a suggestion, but something useful to do while you're waiting.

I agree with you, I don't expect anything to be different because we haven't fixed anything.  If you can't make headway, perhaps we can arrange a TeamViewer session where I can look at what you're doing and what's going on.  Before doing that though, I'd like you to try Cartes du Ciel and work through any connection problems using that - before trying to work with the ASCOM device hub.

As for having a PlaneWave 20" scope, I wish.  I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I do my imaging with a PlaneWave 12.5" scope.

Cheers,

Bruce

[Michael Bibby]

Yes sorry! It was Brian with the 20" planewave. In Chile if I'm not mistaken. I've already installed Cartes du Ciel, so I think I'll take your advice and spend this down time familiarizing myself with the program (your the second person to suggest this solution).

Cheers.

[Bruce Waddington]

I think the important thing is to focus on the telescope control capabilities and not worry about the “eye candy” stuff at this point.

[Michael Bibby]

I just realized that when I was trying to get my mount to record my PE and apply correction (before I started guiding) I downloaded and installed EQMOD PECprep v2.03. Is it possible that that may have caused my problem? Caused a driver mismatch? In any case, I've deleted it.

[Bruce Waddington]

No, that's not the problem, PecPrep is just an app and it wasn't running.

[Martin Dowd]

Ive just read this post now and have some suggestions and ideas which may help ?? ( Ive used Stellarium, EQMOD and PHD2 for over 5 years with various mounts EQ5, HEQ5, EQ6-R and recently my new EQ8-R mount )

EQMOD alignment works fine with either N point or Nearest point and 3 point using sync points with your planetarium ( in this case Stellarium ) but as soon as you use another software like NINA or Sharpcap and use their Plate Solve function or tool that's when you could run into possible problems which "may include" interruption of functionality to PHD2 guiding.

EQMOD was never originally designed for Plate solving ( only alignment using sync points to create a pointing model ) but has settings which can be selected to allow another software program like NINA or Sharpcap to override EQMOD as a Master  and use a Plate Solve model.

Go to the EQMOD Ascom Set Up Screen and in Ascom Options select or tick "Allow Site Writes" then in the Epoch drop down select JNOW .In Guiding Section you must select Ascom Pulse Guiding

Also ensure your Site Information is entered correctly ( Latitude, Longitude , Elevation etc... ) This has to be exactly the same for Stellarium's Location details too.

Now connect to the mount and open EQASCOM then expand the window ( use spanner and 3 red arrows button )  to show all information

1/Ensure Site Information is correct ( as per Ascom Set Up screen and Stellarium)

2/ Alignment Sync Section ( User Interface  use Dialog Based ) ( Alignment Behavior 3 Point + Nearest Point ) ( Point Filter All )

3/ Ascom Pulse Guide Settings ( Ra Rate 0.5 ,  Dec Rate 0.5 , Minimum Pulse Width 20msec , Dec Backlash 0 )

4/ Mount Limits ( Leave un ticked or off )

5/ Park / Un Park ( Park to Home Position )

Note : Plate Solving and EQMOD whilst can be done is not the preferred method of alignment. Some folk have experienced issues with using EQMOD and another software like NINA and Sharpcap in and around the Pole and meridians. The originally designed EQMOD Sync based alignment pointing models are just as accurate for Goto

Another issue I have come across in the past is using my preferred software APT to launch and control EQMOD, Stellarium and PHD2. PHD2 sometimes has problems , drop outs etc.... Since operating them autonomously Ive have trouble free performance for years now

I open Ascom EQMOD via the Toolbox , connect Com Port

Open Stellarium , Use Telescope Plug in , connect mount which launches EQASCOM control panel

Open APT ( the only interface I use is Dithering tool which does connect to PHD2 ok )

Then Open PHD2 and connect ( Ive kept the same Calibration for 9 months now )

NB: Ive used the EQASCOM EQ Direct connection via a Shoestring cable and FTDI Chipset with my previous EQ5 , HEQ5 and EQ6-R mounts and the newer USB connection on the 2nd EQ6-R mount and my latest EQ8-R mount.

In my case this autonomous stage by stage opening and connecting equipment and software has been seamless and 100% reliable in operation and performance

I don't Plate Solve , EQMOD after 2 or 3 Star sync point alignments is dead accurate

Personally I don't think you issue is with PHD2 . PHD2 just works and works well if your PHD2 settings are correct ( use wizard ) , get a good Calibration at Dec = 0 , Guide scope is rock solid on your rig , your payload is balanced , minimal Dec backlash and skies are kind.

If your using the latest drivers and software updates on all equipment and cables are all good etc.. I'm steering towards your PHD2 issues being something to do with Sharpcap controlling everything and maybe not having the correct settings in EQMOD for Plate Solving ( Your choice but personally I don't recommend Plate Solving using EQMOD as Sync point aligment works fine and has been trouble free for years and years )

Maybe you already know and have acted on the information above

In any case I hope the above is helpful and you resolve the issue sooner than later

Clear Skies

Martin ( aka Startrek IIS )

[Martin Dowd]

I forgot to attach some EQMOD and PHD2 documents I put together a year or two ago

Maybe helpful, maybe not ??

To try and isolate this issue ,leave Sharpcap out of the equation for the moment ,  maybe try opening EQMOD set up  via Toolbox ( use my settings attached not settings for Plate Solve above )   , then open Stellarium, connect mount  which should launch EQASCOM and then open PHD2 ( a step by step approach )  , then track and goto using sync point alignment , perform a new calibration near DEC = 0 and auto save , slew to a star in the east say , guide for 10 mins , move to another star in the north east , guide for 10 minutes , slew near the meridian and guide for 10 mins.

Note: I always stop PHD2 guiding before I initiate a goto and then re start guiding once my target is framed , then set my capture plan and start imaging.

If you have an Obs and want pretty much full automation then I don't think EQMOD is the best way to go , I have an Obs but only semi automated , EQMOD suits my situation as I'm awake for the session and initiate a park at the completion the session. I use to have the Meridian limits set in EQMOD a few years ago but I had intermittent spurious faults , the mount would return to Home halfway through a capture. Tried everything thing to find the issue ( drivers ,cables, updates, USB power Management settings ...... and so on  ) gave up in the end  , un ticked set Meridian Limits , Problem solved !!! Its been seamless and faultless ever since , nearly 3 years now.

Enough from me

Hopefully more folk can chime in and help

Cheers

Martin

[Bruce Waddington]

Hi Martin.  I don't know where our OP went but this was really good of you to provide all this information.  Inasmuch as you've been successful and have documented the recipe for working with the same software as the OP, hopefully he will be able to get going.  I think the finger you pointed at plate-solving may be the key - the symptoms we see from the PHD2 side is that guiding is working ok and then abruptly stops working (without any errors or exceptions being returned) after some burst of activity from the other apps.

Thanks again for taking the time to help out here, we appreciate it.

Regards,

Bruce

[Martin Dowd]

Hi Bruce,

Thank you

Maybe cloudy weather has delayed looking at the issue again ?

I think the OP is also a registered member of our regional astronomy forum ?? But I could be wrong

Always glad to help on any forum where I can

Hopefully my information may trigger some ideas or lead to a solution

Clear Skies

Martin

[Michael Bibby]

Yes, thanks Martin, very much appreciate all that information, at the very least its helping me get a better handle on these programs (with the help of your information I just made sure that everything was on JNOW instead of J2000, which it was-- might that explain why my goto is always out by a few degrees?). I will likely return to some of your suggestions if needed. I've been busy and still waiting for clear skies. I understand that I can do a three star alignment procedure with EQMOD, but I really like the convenience of platesolving in Sharpcap. I've been reading over forum posts and it seems like all these programs should play well together. A lot of people use them together just fine. But there are always edge cases!
At this stage I just want to do some more testing to see if anything I have done has helped (doubtful) and to further isolate the fault condition (is it just Stellarium or Sharpcap or both causing the problem? If it is just Stellarium, will Cartes du Ciel solve the problem? Etc.,).
I'm not sure what you mean by regional astronomy forum Martin, I am completely new to astro-imagining up until a couple of months ago and am only a member of the usual online forums (Stargazers lounge, Cloudy Nights, etc.). Hoping to do some testing tonight if the clouds part and reveal the glory of the heavens, if not tonight, hopefully in a few days time.

Thanks again for everyone's help, Michael.

[Martin Dowd]

Michael,

No problem glad to offer some info to help

You don't necessarily need to 3 star align in EQMOD if your pointing is set to (Nearest and 3 point )

From Park or Home I slewed to Rigel last night , centred and sync'd then clicked on Alnitak ( Horsehead IC434) and it ended up near spot on centre

The pointing algorithms of EQMOD refine your accuracy the more stars you sync but nearest point works well.

I still think its Sharpcap that's not co operating , since Stellarium had Ascom support in 2019 it has been pretty stable

Maybe join the Sharpcap forum and Robin might be able to offer more advice and help

Sorry but your name and a post or two appeared in our forum IIS a few months ago and I thought you were that member, obviously not the same person, apologies

All the best and hope your resolve everything

[Michael Bibby]

Still haven't had a chance to test anything. I just checked on the Sharpcap website to see if there was an update and saw this notice:

"Some ASCOM drivers may not support 64-bit SharpCap."

I am using the 64bit version. I think I'll try to 32bit version.

Thanks Martin, I see that Robin is very good at helping people on the forum. I've already setup Sharpcap to produce relevant logs if needed.

[Michael Bibby]

Finally got a chance to do some testing last night. I began the session with the assumption that everything would work exactly as it should (hoping that I had fixed the problem) but quickly ran into a problem where my guiding, after doing a fresh calibration, started to 'wander' around and go off the chart. I used the Guiding Assistant and that fixed the problem. After slewing and platesolving my way around the sky I then noticed that my guiding went off the charts again. What I noticed was the tracking rate on EQMOD was on 'Custom' instead of 'Sidereal', I switched it back to 'Sidereal' and then PHD2 strated guiding properly again. This happened again later, only after I used Sharpcap to platesolve. The same fix worked again. I had actually noticed this before: that for some reason my EQMOD would stop Sidereal tracking randomly, but changing it back to 'Sidereal' didn't fix the problem I was having previously.

This problem I'm having right now seems different, although somehow related, to the problem I was having previously. This problem, I can live with: I just have to keep an eye on my EQMOD to make sure that it is in 'Sidereal' tracking. This problem seems to be caused by a conflict between EQMOD and how the telescope controls are implimented in Sharpcap (Sharpcap often displays a question mark on the tracking option, even when EQMOD shows its tracking sidereal, so there seems to be some communication problem between the two of them). Platesolving in Sharpcap seems to be what triggers EQMOD to go from 'Sidereal' to 'Custom', from what I can tell. I like the convenience of platesolving in Sharpcap, its quick and easy, so I don't think I'll change my work flow.

The other problem I'm having now is that Stellarium keeps crashing on me, but again, its  problem I can live with, and I see that this is a problem that many others have reported. If it keeps annoying me I'll probably will switch to Cartes Du Ciel.


I'm not sure what has fixed the problem I was having-- unloading the PEC in my mount? Turning off 'mount limits' in EQMOD? Using 32 instead of 64 bit Sharpcap? In any case, PHD2 is working very well now, so I'm happy.

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions, they have helped me to get my head around these programs (computers have always been my weakness and I knew that software issues were going to cause me the most grief with astro imagining, well that, and clouds....).

P.S., sorry if my offer of a meager reward seemed to cheapen the good work so many of you do helping others with their problems on here.

[Michael Bibby]

Another clear night, more testing. PHD2 worked well, and the problem I was having last time of the tracking going from Sidereal to Custom didn't occur this time even though I did everything exactly the same.

[Brian Valente]

Thanks for the update Michael

Have you solved all your issues now?

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[Michael Bibby]

Yes, thanks. I did so many things that I have no idea what ended up fixing it (I even updated from Windows 10 to 11). I'm lead to believe that even something as simple as removing 'mount limits' from EQMOD could have resolved the problem. In any case, everything is working well now.

Thanks again.