PHD2 Calibration Failures With EQ3 Pro and EQMod

[Darryl Ellis]

Hi All,

I apologize in advance if I ask the wrong thing in the wrong place in the wrong way, but I am at wits end.  Before I explain, let me say I am truly grateful to all the people responsible for developing and providing Ascom, EQMod, PHD2 Guiding and all the other amazing and awesome software and tools we have at our disposal...for free I may add.

My problem is I have not been able to get PHD2 Guiding to complete it's calibration routine using EQMod's pulse guiding.  I have with limited success been able to get it to work with the ST4 protocol albeit only on one side of the Meridian (West), and mostly in the southern two thirds of the Western sky.  However, when trying to image anything in the Eastern sky or Zenith, the guiding fails.  

Since I use EQMod to control my mount in conjunction with Cartes Du Ciele, I thought I should easily be able to use PHD2 the same way.  I connect through the PC Direct Mod on my Hand Controller using the EQ5/6 drivers, and I am able to perform all the alignment, goto, and control functions with EQMod and CDC that I like.  

I have just recently begun auto guiding, and I use a Mallincam Skyraider AGc autoguider through an Orion 50mm guidescope.  I connect to PHD2 using the Toupcam or WDM drivers, and I connect to the mount using the ST4 driver when using the ST4 port.  But when trying to switch over to pulse guiding by disconnecting everything including EQMod and CDC and selecting pulse guiding in EQmod setup and EQ5/6 in PHD2, the calibration consistently has failed in RA...the star did not move enough.  I have experienced this both with my autoguider and the simulator camera in PHD2.  I have changed the Calibration step, ms significantly in both directions as well as the guide rates in EQMod.

Finally, I have manually guided my mount when connected for pulse guiding and can hear it responding to the communications, and can see it move in the north and south directions in CDC but not so much in East and West.

Attached are a few of my log files both with ST4 connections and with pulse guiding connections if that will help any.

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance.

Darryl 

[Andy Galasso]

Hi Darry,

You are asking in the right place.  Thanks for providing the guide logs, that is very helpful.

You are on the right track selecting EQMod for the mount in PHD2. According tho the log, it looks like you inadvertently picked the wrong camera (Simulator).  Make sure to select your actual guide camera!

The best way to get started would be to setup a new equipment profile for the Mallincam + EQMOD PulseGuide combination.  In the Connect Equipment window select Manage Profiles, then click New Using Wizard. Then you can select your camera and mount (EQMOD), and enter the other values when prompted.

Hope that gets you off and running....

Andy

[Darryl Ellis]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for responding. I have tried both with my camera and the simulator. I used the simulator this weekend due to cloudy skies.

But the mount should respond the same regardless, correct? It worked with the simulator in ST4 mode.

Darryl

[Bruce Waddington]

No, Darryl, you can't use the simulator for tracking down problems with real
mounts. The simulators are good for learning the user interface and how the
guiding algorithms work. But if you are having problems with the real
mount, we need to see log data with the real mount in action. Unless you've
deleted them, the older log files should still be available.

Bruce

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[Bruce Waddington]

Ok. Let's keep things simple and just leave the simulator out of it
entirely for now - it can't help you with the real mount. I went back and
read your original post and it sounds like you already know you're having
trouble getting the mount to move in RA. Before you try again tonight, you
might consider upgrading to the latest dev build. That build does have a
few more diagnostic tools and the help file includes more trouble-shooting
help. It's available here:

http://openphdguiding.org/development-snapshots/

This won't fix your problem, but it might help us get more info. Your use
of the manual guide tool was a good move - if you can't get that to move the
mount reliably, calibration will never work. You might also look at the
earlier discussion here, with the subject line "Can't even get a
calibration":

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/open-phd-guiding/Jg6XlB2mmWQ

One thing to remember is that the planetarium programs generally don't use
the PulseGuide interface to talk to the mount - they use other ASCOM
commands. So if the PulseGuide interface isn't working for some reason,
PHD2 would likely be the only app to see the problem.

Good luck.
Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl H. Ellis [mailto:darryl...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Bruce Waddington
Subject: Re: PHD2 Calibration Failures With EQ3 Pro and EQMod

Thanks Bruce. I was not aware that the simulator would not work with
the actual mount. It seemed to work in ST4 mode however as I was able
to get the calibration to complete and actually logged some guiding
time.

Attached are two files I was able to get the mount guiding with the
simulator (file ending in 222248) and one with my guidecam (file
ending in 220248).

I will try it again tonight both with ST4 and with the Pulse Guiding
with the Mallincam. I will send those files ASAP.

Thanks for working with me. I am totally new at this, and it is a lot
to take in at once...but sooooo much fun, lol.

Darryl

[Darryl Ellis]

Attached are two small samples of my guide logs I was able to get last night between the clouds.

I started with pulse guiding and after it failed, I tried to calibrate in ST4 mode.  However, the clouds returned at that point.

I was also aiming at M31 which was 60 degrees or higher in the eastern sky around midnight.

We should have clear skies from mid to end week, and I can do a better job without being rushed.

Thanks,

Darryl

[bw_msgboard]

Yes, you’re not really moving the mount in RA at all.  But why are you using a 50ms calibration step-size?  Where did that come from?  If you run the calibration step calculator on the guiding tab, an image scale of 1.1 arc-sec/px should result in a step-size of 200ms.  And that assumes you are using a guide speed of 1X sidereal – if you are using a slower guide speed, the calibration step-size would need to be even higher.  You need to be sure the guide speed setting in the mount is set to something reasonable – 0.5–1X sidereal is the place to be for now.

 

It’s possible this happened because you were flailing around in earlier sessions.  I suggest you create a new equipment profile for testing using the new-profile-wizard.  As part of that process, an appropriate calibration step-size will be computed for you.  If that still doesn’t get the mount moving, run the star-cross test I mentioned earlier (attached).  Start with a large guide pulse size, like 5 seconds, and see if anything good happens.  If that works, start decreasing the pulse size – there may be some point below which the mount stops responding.  If possible, you should also work with the ASCOM guiding interface because that eliminates a bunch of potential issues with guide cables and guide camera behavior.

 

Good luck.

Bruce

 

---

[Darryl Ellis]

I got it working!  Somewhat. (See attached.) 

However, it locked up twice.  I probably have too much stuff going on.

The first time, EQMod just stopped responding.  The second time I got a 'connection time out error'.

However, the way I got EQMod to work with PHD2 via pulse guiding, I had to increase the calibration step size to above 400, and I also noticed that the estimated dec level was -5.  I changed that to 30.

I realized that when I downloaded and installed the 2.5 dev version, certain settings changed.  But it looks like I was guiding.

EQMod locked up when I was trying to get a good focus on my camera.  I use EqMod to run CDC as well as communicate with my mount and now pulse guiding.  Is that too much?

Thanks,

Darryl

[bw_msgboard]

See below.

 

---

From: open-phd...@googlegroups.com [mailto:open-phd...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Ellis
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:05 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding
Cc: darryl...@gmail.com; bw_m...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: PHD2 Calibration Failures With EQ3 Pro and EQMod

 

I got it working!  Somewhat. (See attached.) 

 

Well, you’ve made some progress, but I wouldn’t say it’s really working.  You are now able to move the mount in RA in a fairly consistent way, so that’s progress.  Now the problem is in declination with results that look very weird to me.  Although the calibration completed, the movements in declination were very jumpy – periods of essentially no movement, followed by a big jump, etc.  Use the Calibration Review tool or PHDlogViewer to look at the graph of the calibration.  Notice how the RA points form a nice straight line with a fairly even spacing of points.  That’s how you want the declination moves to look – not with all this clumping of points along the line.  Again, if you had run the star-cross test with various guide pulse sizes, I think you would have seen all this.  

 

However, it locked up twice.  I probably have too much stuff going on.

 

The first time, EQMod just stopped responding.  The second time I got a 'connection time out error'.

 

I think a lot of the problems now are tied up with either the mount or the EQMod interface, nothing to do with PHD2.  You might be able to get more help if you work with the EQMod folks.  Generically, a “connection time-out error” usually means the PC isn’t communicating with the mount controller reliably, often because of a problem with the USB-serial hardware/driver.  At this point, I can’t help you much with trying to get this mount under control.

 

However, the way I got EQMod to work with PHD2 via pulse guiding, I had to increase the calibration step size to above 400, and I also noticed that the estimated dec level was -5.  I changed that to 30.

 

I assume you’re talking about something in the EQMod window.  But PHD2 is getting data from the mount saying the pointing declination was -5 degrees, which sounds like the same number as whatever this “dec level” is.   If you weren’t pointing at -5 degrees, then again, you aren’t communicating correctly with the mount or getting reliable info back.  Until all of this is working well, guiding isn’t going to work well either.

 

I realized that when I downloaded and installed the 2.5 dev version, certain settings changed.  But it looks like I was guiding.

 

I really doubt this, but if you can tell me specifically what settings you think have changed, I will look.  We try to be very careful about this, so I think you may be mistaken on this point.  You may be using a different profile or you may just be mis-remembering how things were set up earlier – it’s easy for that to happen when you’re changing lots of things trying to get going.

 

EQMod locked up when I was trying to get a good focus on my camera.  I use EqMod to run CDC as well as communicate with my mount and now pulse guiding.  Is that too much?

 

Probably best to ask on the EQMod forum…

 

Good luck.

Bruce

[Darryl Ellis]

Bruce,

Thanks for the quick response.  I agree, it's progress, but not guiding.  However, previously I couldn't get the mount to communicate or calibrate via pulse guiding.  I figured once I was able to get that working first, I could tweak it to get the guiding working properly.  

As far as the connection, I will check to see what I'm doing hardware and software wise to cause that.  I thought I may have moved the computer or something.  I also posted on the EQMod Yahoo User Group for help.

I was referring to Calibration declination, degrees in the Calculate Calibration Step, ms menu.

Now that I was able to get a calibration without using ST4, I will perform the Star Test to further sort things out. 

Darryl

[bw_msgboard]

From: Darryl Ellis [mailto:darryl...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Open PHD Guiding
Cc: darryl...@gmail.com; bw_m...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: PHD2 Calibration Failures With EQ3 Pro and EQMod

 

Bruce,

 

Thanks for the quick response.  I agree, it's progress, but not guiding.  However, previously I couldn't get the mount to communicate or calibrate via pulse guiding.  I figured once I was able to get that working first, I could tweak it to get the guiding working properly.  

 

As far as the connection, I will check to see what I'm doing hardware and software wise to cause that.  I thought I may have moved the computer or something.  I also posted on the EQMod Yahoo User Group for help.

 

I was referring to Calibration declination, degrees in the Calculate Calibration Step, ms menu.

 

Ok, then there is definitely a problem communicating with the mount.  We fill that field with the declination value being read from the ASCOM driver for the mount, and that’s what shows up in the log - -5 degrees.  This, alone, would not have messed up the calibration, but it’s symptomatic of a mount/driver problem you’ll need to get sorted out.

 

Bruce

[Darryl Ellis]

Hi All,

Just to confirm I tried again last night to get a good calibration with my setup both through pulse guiding only and ST4.  Attached are the results.  

At first, it started guiding based on a previous calibration, but after seeing it go off the graph I deleted the previous calibration, and it did not get it to successfully calibrate again.  

I tried adjusting the calibration step size and adjusted a few other parameters, but did not get it to calibrate either way.

I then attempted the star test as recommended by Bruce, and as he suspected my mount is not responding to pulse commands in all directions.  I'm not sure how to evaluate the results, but the star only appeared to move East.  See attached.

After a while, I couldn't stand passing up the rare clear skies and settled for 30 to 60 second exposures of M31, M103, and NGC869 and it's companion.  So all wasn't lost.

The next cloudy or moonlit night I will adjust the worm gear mesh in my mount, and look at different ways to connect my mount with EQMod, possibly through the generic/POTH hub and/or in combination with the Hand controller and ST4.  I have to find the best set of drivers to make it all work harmoniously.  I want to have the ability to image remotely from inside the house or at least the garage by winter.

Anyway, thanks for the assistance.

Darryl 

[Darryl Ellis]

Hi Bruce and All,

I figured out I was misreading that field, Calibration Declination Degrees.  It is correct as entered from PHD2.  When I was calibrating the mount was -5 degrees, but pointing in the opposite direction at about 30 degrees.  My error there.

However, here is an update:  I reconfigured my Ascom/EQmod settings so that I connect to the Generic Hub to which I have my mount connected.  The thought is that the mount may be limited in receiving instructions simultaneously from the various programs I am using, e.g., EQMOD, CDC, PHD2, etc.  I then connected the aforementioned programs with the mount only and using PHD2's Manual Guide command to move the mount.

I believe that it did move the mount as directed as is indicated by the attached screen shots.  Also, as is indicated in some of the shots, PHD2 is thinking that the pulse guide commands failed.  (It happened each time though I only captured it in a few of the screen shots.)  Perhaps there are some settings I need to change in either or both EQMOD/PHD2 to get them communicating better?

I also attempted to calibrate and guide last night while imaging, but did not get it working as it should.  I did not spend much time on it as I wanted to take advantage of the clear skies.  But I certainly need it to work because I can only get 60 +/- images currently.

[Darryl Ellis]

Attached are the actual guide logs from last night if any of it helps analyze my problem.

Thanks

[Andy Galasso]

Hi Darryl,

The first couple of logs show you were using the camera simulator. We are going to ignore those based on our earlier comments.

In the last guide log the mount appeared to be responding (somewhat) in RA, but not in Dec. Here's a plot from PHD2 Log Viewer. The blue circles are the RA motion during calibration and the red circles are the (nonexistant) Dec motion.

The rate in RA is about 2 arc-seconds per second, and your eqmod screenshots show that you have your guide rate set to 0.5x sidereal, which should have given you an RA guide rate of about 5.7 arc-seconds per second at declination 40 degrees.

To me these are symptoms pointing to an issue with EQMOD or the mount itself. There is not much we can say about this from the PHD perspective.  I believe you will need to work with the EQMOD folks to diagnose why your mount is not responding to the Dec guide commands, why it is moving so slowly in RA, and why it returning an error when asked to Pulse Guide.

You can use the Manual Guide function in PHD2 (Tools => Manual Guide) as a tool for sending guide commands to the mount to help diagnose the problem.  Set the Guide Pulse duration to a nice high value like 1000 ms or 2000 ms.  With a star in the field of view, sending guide pulses in all 4 directions (N/S/E/W) should cause clearly visible motion of the guide star in 4 directions.  Once you have this working reliably (with help from EQMOD experts), you can try calibration and guiding in PHD2.  If manual move in all 4 directions is not working or only partly working, there's just no way that guiding can work.

Regarding the ASCOM hub: that is definitely not necessary since EQMOD can already handle multiple concurrent applications connecting. Adding the hub is is not doing any harm, but is adding an unnecessary component to the system.

We have lots of folks using EQMOD together with PHD2, so there is hope!

Andy

[Darryl Ellis]

Thanks Andy.

That was some specific, insightful, and helpful advice.  I really appreciate you and Bruce being so generous.

You are spot on about the Dec movement.  Come to find out, I started getting the Dec Backlash error tonight, but after increasing the Dec Backlash setting in EQMOD, I started getting complete calibrations with warnings.

I went ahead and accepted the calibrations however, and it appears to have helped.  Oh the other thing I did was stop the PEC file from running in EQMOD and increased my Dec guide rate to .90.  I also ran the calibration for the calibration step size in PHD2.

As a result, I was able to get some decent (for me for the first time) two and three minute subs.

I realize that there is much room for improvement though.  Attached are my guide files.  Feel free to direct me where else to make changes or how to go about figuring out where to start.

Thanks again.

Darryl

[Andy Galasso]

Darryl,

You should definitely look at your calibration results. One easy way is to use Tools => Review Calibration Data in PHD2.  Or, open your guide log file in PHD2 Log Viewer.

A good calibration will show consistent motion in RA and Dec at right angles. Here is an example of a valid calibration from somebody else's PHD2 Guide Log:

RA (blue) completes the westward motion in 13 even steps.  Dec (red) also completes in 13 steps.  The directions are very close to orthogonal (90 degrees).

Here is your calibration.

As with the earlier log you posted RA is moving way too slowly. RA calibration took 50 steps with a measured rate of just over 2 arc-sec per second.  RA should be moving a lot more than that with your guide rate set to 0.9x. It should have been about 13 arc-sec per second (0.9 [your guide rate] x 15 arc-sec/sec [sidereal rate] * cos(6.2 deg) [declination factor for dec 6.2 deg]).

Your Dec calibration shows essentially no motion for about 40 steps, then a couple huge (20 pixels) leaps.

Any guiding software like PHD2 needs your mount to respond in a uniform linear way to guide commands (like the other guy's example above.) If the mount behaves unpredictably, guiding is just not going to work.  Maybe you might be able to get decent guiding in RA, but Dec guiding is going to be a problem.  Some of the problem might be caused by your enabling backlash compensation in EQMOD--that should be disabled (set to 0) when using PHD2.

I really think you need to consult with users in the EQMOD forum and folks who have the same mount as you, as the problems are definitely related to the mount.  I've pretty much reached the limit of the advice I can give you since I do not use EQMOD and do not have an HEQ 5/6 mount.

Andy