4 Universes out of a Number 1?

[marshall...@gmail.com]

Hi all, I realize the Number 1 supports a single DMX Universe (possibly 2 if the firmware was completed?).  However, I was curious if it's physically possible for a USB connection to handle a total of 4 RDM-enabled DMX universes?  I'm trying to get 1 or 2 samples from Stellascapes to test the single universe model, but long term I would love to have 4 universes available.  Or is there a reason that a lot of multi-universe devices are Art-Net or S/ACN?  I would be happy to pay a bounty to someone to design a 4-universe model, and would love to keep it open source and share it with the community when done for others to enjoy. 

[Peter Stuge]

marshall...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was curious if it's physically possible for a USB connection to
> handle a total of 4 RDM-enabled DMX universes?

I think so, but it depends a bit on which DMX framerate you require,
and what latency you require for the RDM communication.


//Peter

[marshall...@gmail.com]

It should support 44hz refresh rate.  Regarding the latency for RDM communication, what kind of effect does different latency have on RDM? 

[Andrew Frazer]

 

Would you guys be interested in an opensource version of this, that has both USB and Ethernet on it, and perhaps four DMX ports?

 

We did create something uin the early days that was called the Number8.. 

 

 

 

Kind Regards

Andrew Frazer

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[marshall...@gmail.com]

I would be very interested in something like this, especially with Ethernet.  I have not heard from you regarding the process to order some Number 1 samples, can you send me details so we can get those shipped? 

Thanks!

[annist...@gmail.com]

Put me down as an interested party in this as well.  Would the Ethernet support art-net or S/ACN? 

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 3:02:42 PM UTC-6, mrpackethead wrote:

[Andrew Frazer]

I’d imagine that we could make it run either.

I don’t’ have any call for artnet, but if its entirely opensource then you could add your own.  Looks like it should be possible to get 6 ports of DMX out/in.

 

 

 

I’d like to

 

 

 

Kind Regards

Andrew Frazer

[Stefan Krüger]

@Andrew: just out of interest/ wanting to learn - what processor is in your focus for this and why?
about 2years ago i had to design a led-light that should be ethernet connected (with POE) - we made about 40 peaces - so minimalist amount ;-)

for this i researched different options - mostly based on an Arduino compatible AVR + separate also Arduino supported Ethernet Chip/Module.
What i found was that the HW cost of these chips is relative high and i then decided to use a SOM (arietta for developing / aria for the final HW) that got me to about the same price point.
but had the benefit of a full linux and with this nice libraries/high level tools (for example OLA) :-)

i didn't tried the UART plugin on this boards jet (but its on my to do list..) but as you pointed out in another thread you are on the side of 'better let do a uC the timing stuff - as every time all has pro and contra - i understand this^^

iam looking forward to hear your thoughts about this :-)
sunny greetings
stefan

[Peter Stuge]

Stefan Krüger wrote:
> about 2years ago i had to design a led-light that should be ethernet
> connected (with POE) - we made about 40 peaces - so minimalist amount ;-)
>
> for this i researched different options - mostly based on an Arduino
> compatible AVR + separate also Arduino supported Ethernet Chip/Module.
> What i found was that the HW cost of these chips is relative high and i

> then decided to use a SOM (arietta <https://www.acmesystems.it/arietta> for
> developing / aria <https://www.acmesystems.it/aria> for the final HW) that

> got me to about the same price point.
> but had the benefit of a full linux and with this nice libraries/high level
> tools (for example OLA) :-)

An embedded Linux system means a far richer software stack. This has
both pros and cons. A clear pro is that it takes much less effort to
perform software updates. A clear con is the much greater software
complexity. But that complexity also allows different methodologies.

> i didn't tried the UART plugin on this boards jet (but its on my to do
> list..)

I wouldn't bother, and would add sub-1€ Cortex-M0+ to run the UART(s).


//Peter

[Andrew Frazer]

 

I’d probably go for a PIC32MZ2048EFM064.  It has Ethernet MAC, USB, 6 UARTS and some othr useful bits to do some measurements with. Theres plenty of enough horsepower to make it do this task.

Ethernet via a LAN8740 or 9303 Phy.    Probably add a small display as well.

 

I’d likely lean towards using an RTOS to keep the various bits from overrunning each other, as well.       

 

Certainly Linux is ‘richer’, but that can make it less stable, and it’s a whole bunch more prone to crashes. 

Updates are easy enough via a bootloader, and that’s now much more stable.

 

 

 

 

Kind Regards

Andrew Frazer

 

From: Peter Stuge
Sent: Saturday, 25 November 2017 1:20 PM
To: open-l...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [open-lighting] 4 Universes out of a Number 1?

 

Stefan Krüger wrote:

--

[Michael Stickel]

On 25.11.2017 01:11, Peter Stuge wrote:

An embedded Linux system means a far richer software stack. This has
both pros and cons. A clear pro is that it takes much less effort to
perform software updates. A clear con is the much greater software
complexity. But that complexity also allows different methodologies.

If the EBU of the PIC32MZ2048EFM144/PIC32MZ2048EFM100 does support SDRAM, it would be possible to run Linux or BSD. The pro would be that it is available a TQFP so soldering would be easier. But if a manufacturer does the placin of the parts it does not matter if it is BGA.

I would chose the AM3356, which has a PRU but no GLES stuff that a dmx node does not need. It is low cost and even has enough power to run OLA. It costs about 8 EUR@1K. Add some DDR-SDRAM, EMMC a 100BaseT phy with PoE and some small power supply. No need for a PMIC. Add some isolated RS485. I have a good experience with it in an industrial design (XXSnet2).

The proof of concept could be made by using the beaglebone green and a board containing the RS485 together with the connectors.

When using Yocto, it is not so much of an effort to get a simple to build Image which can be reproduced easily. I can help with that, as it's my everyday job. Yocto, one BSP layer, one OLA layer one layer containing all the Device specific stuff and the image definitions.

Hopefully, when the final design is ready, we have a running image.

Another alternative might be an i.MX7 Solo as it has up to 7 UARTs and an ARM Cortex M4 beside it's ARM Cortex A7.

Michael

[rbarr...@gmail.com]

I am currently working on a artnet/sacn to 8 dmx ports (output only) using the cheap blue pill (stm32f103) with gpio DMA. Uses an enc28j60, i2c eeprom to save settings artnet v4 compliant. Finishing now the eeprom code, building a test rig and will do some heavy testing, will most likely place it on github. Any interest to have an early alpha?

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[marshall...@gmail.com]

Rui, that is a very interesting sounding device!  Being artnet 4 compliant, does that mean it also supports RDM?  What do you think the BOM cost would be roughly?

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[rbarr...@gmail.com]

It doesn't support RDM because the dmx outputs are outputs only, they're gpio being run through DMA. It's a very low cost artnet/sacn to 8 dmx outputs, configurable through dmx workshop for now.

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[Michael Stickel]

On 25.11.2017 15:01, rbarr...@gmail.com wrote:

I am currently working on a artnet/sacn to 8 dmx ports (output only) using the cheap blue pill (stm32f103) with gpio DMA. Uses an enc28j60, i2c eeprom to save settings artnet v4 compliant. Finishing now the eeprom code, building a test rig and will do some heavy testing, will most likely place it on github. Any interest to have an early alpha?

I love the STM32 and use it together with ChiBios. I like ChiBios a lot over FreeRTOS and have made a lot of good experience with ChiCios. You could use an STM32 that has an ethernet MAC like STM32F107 or use an STM32F407. Moving to an external PHY and use the buildin MAC is not so complicative. There are a lot of code example on how to use the internal MAC. I have some experience with ethernet PHY's and If you like someone else to look over the schemartics or layout, I can do so. When using an STM32F429/439 you might have up to 8 UARTS (4xUSART+4xUART) so you can do RDM as well as DMX input. You can store setting within one or two pages of the flash. Adding PoE is not so complicative, so you can also do that later.

Michael

[rbarr...@gmail.com]

I understand all that and agree with you.

The option for the 'blue pill' was its easy availability (sells like hell on eBay) and price point. It's actually developed on ChibiOS (latest) and it was meant to be a low cost 8 dmx solution.

After finishing this, I'm thinking of an stm32f4 to run 8dmx outputs only (with gpio DMA like the stm32f1, and 8 bidirectional dmx inputs/outputs (with the uarts), but that's a project for next year.

--

[Michael Stickel]

It is a good choice to learn. I understand that you get boards with the ENC27J60 with RJ45 on one side and a pin header for the SPI on the other side. But once you have that running and your prototype works, it comes to price reduction and integration. The 10BaseT might be to slow, if your device is bombarded with ethernet trafic. But when you change to 100MBit the 20K RAM of the STM32F103 will become a bottleneck. You get a 100MBit PHY + an STM32 with 64K RAM that does not really cost much more than the STM32F103 plus the ENC28J60. The buildin MAC can use a DMA for packet transfer and they often have a CRC engine buildin that you can use to generate and check the Ethernet checksum.

Do you know the STM32-E407 from Olimex, which costs about 40 EUR (https://www.olimex.com/Products/ARM/ST/STM32-E407/open-source-hardware). You can get a 100BaseT PHY for about about 1 EUR @ 1K. The connector with buildin coil will not cost you more than 2 EUR @ 1K. Get the schematic of the STM32-E407 and search for the prices of the key components.

If you choose the right case, you can switch between STM32F107 and STM32F407 easily, as they are mostly pin compatible.

I think ChibiOS is a really good choice. I also use it for my fader wings and my USB-DMX interface and for a Display Button board with only 5 buttons/leds and an STM32F030 which can be exchanged by an STM32F042 to have CAN or USB in a TSSOP20 package.

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[Rui Barreiros]

On 25/11/2017 18:08, Michael Stickel wrote:

It is a good choice to learn. I understand that you get boards with the ENC27J60 with RJ45 on one side and a pin header for the SPI on the other side. But once you have that running and your prototype works, it comes to price reduction and integration. The 10BaseT might be to slow, if your device is bombarded with ethernet trafic. But when you change to 100MBit the 20K RAM of the STM32F103 will become a bottleneck. You get a 100MBit PHY + an STM32 with 64K RAM that does not really cost much more than the STM32F103 plus the ENC28J60. The buildin MAC can use a DMA for packet transfer and they often have a CRC engine buildin that you can use to generate and check the Ethernet checksum.

I understand all this and completely agree with you, the purpose to use the enc28j60/uIP with the STM32F103 (Blue pill) was targetted at people to just buy the modules around the internet and stick them into a 'shield' with the RS485 transceivers thus having quickly and low cost solution with 8 DMX outputs and ArtNet/sACN.

The enc can filter traffic, so, if correctly setup we can just ignore all traffic not pertaining to our node, and 10mb is more than enough for 8 DMX universes. It can be DDOS'ed ofc it can, any of them can, even 100mbit can, but, it should be run in a controlled environment. Note that it's purpose is not to be a commercial product for big live concerts/festivals/tours, for that it would be the project i'm thinking of for next year (8out + 8in/out with STM32F4 or F7)

Do you know the STM32-E407 from Olimex, which costs about 40 EUR (https://www.olimex.com/Products/ARM/ST/STM32-E407/open-source-hardware). You can get a 100BaseT PHY for about about 1 EUR @ 1K. The connector with buildin coil will not cost you more than 2 EUR @ 1K. Get the schematic of the STM32-E407 and search for the prices of the key components.

Yes I do, an enc28j60 module costs 1.5€ and a STM32F103 blue pill costs 2.5€ tops + 8 x max485, 8 xlrs and a box will sort you out a pretty decent setup for your domestic or small needs.

If you choose the right case, you can switch between STM32F107 and STM32F407 easily, as they are mostly pin compatible.

I think ChibiOS is a really good choice. I also use it for my fader wings and my USB-DMX interface and for a Display Button board with only 5 buttons/leds and an STM32F030 which can be exchanged by an STM32F042 to have CAN or USB in a TSSOP20 package.

ChibiOS rocks :)

[nicolas bats]

Michael,
What is your fader wings?

++

Le sam. 25 nov. 2017 à 19:23, Rui Barreiros <rbarr...@gmail.com> a écrit :

On 25/11/2017 18:08, Michael Stickel wrote:

It is a good choice to learn. I understand that you get boards with the ENC27J60 with RJ45 on one side and a pin header for the SPI on the other side. But once you have that running and your prototype works, it comes to price reduction and integration. The 10BaseT might be to slow, if your device is bombarded with ethernet trafic. But when you change to 100MBit the 20K RAM of the STM32F103 will become a bottleneck. You get a 100MBit PHY + an STM32 with 64K RAM that does not really cost much more than the STM32F103 plus the ENC28J60. The buildin MAC can use a DMA for packet transfer and they often have a CRC engine buildin that you can use to generate and check the Ethernet checksum.

I understand all this and completely agree with you, the purpose to use the enc28j60/uIP with the STM32F103 (Blue pill) was targetted at people to just buy the modules around the internet and stick them into a 'shield' with the RS485 transceivers thus having quickly and low cost solution with 8 DMX outputs and ArtNet/sACN.

The enc can filter traffic, so, if correctly setup we can just ignore all traffic not pertaining to our node, and 10mb is more than enough for 8 DMX universes. It can be DDOS'ed ofc it can, any of them can, even 100mbit can, but, it should be run in a controlled environment. Note that it's purpose is not to be a commercial product for big live concerts/festivals/tours, for that it would be the project i'm thinking of for next year (8out + 8in/out with STM32F4 or F7)

Do you know the STM32-E407 from Olimex, which costs about 40 EUR (https://www.olimex.com/Products/ARM/ST/STM32-E407/open-source-hardware). You can get a 100BaseT PHY for about about 1 EUR @ 1K. The connector with buildin coil will not cost you more than 2 EUR @ 1K. Get the schematic of the STM32-E407 and search for the prices of the key components.

Yes I do, an enc28j60 module costs 1.5€ and a STM32F103 blue pill costs 2.5€ tops + 8 x max485, 8 xlrs and a box will sort you out a pretty decent setup for your domestic or small needs.

If you choose the right case, you can switch between STM32F107 and STM32F407 easily, as they are mostly pin compatible.

I think ChibiOS is a really good choice. I also use it for my fader wings and my USB-DMX interface and for a Display Button board with only 5 buttons/leds and an STM32F030 which can be exchanged by an STM32F042 to have CAN or USB in a TSSOP20 package.

ChibiOS rocks :)

On 25.11.2017 15:57, rbarr...@gmail.com wrote:

I understand all that and agree with you.

The option for the 'blue pill' was its easy availability (sells like hell on eBay) and price point. It's actually developed on ChibiOS (latest) and it was meant to be a low cost 8 dmx solution.

After finishing this, I'm thinking of an stm32f4 to run 8dmx outputs only (with gpio DMA like the stm32f1, and 8 bidirectional dmx inputs/outputs (with the uarts), but that's a project for next year.

On 25 Nov 2017 14:35, "Michael Stickel" <mic...@cubic.org> wrote:

On 25.11.2017 15:01, rbarr...@gmail.com wrote:

I am currently working on a artnet/sacn to 8 dmx ports (output only) using the cheap blue pill (stm32f103) with gpio DMA. Uses an enc28j60, i2c eeprom to save settings artnet v4 compliant. Finishing now the eeprom code, building a test rig and will do some heavy testing, will most likely place it on github. Any interest to have an early alpha?

I love the STM32 and use it together with ChiBios. I like ChiBios a lot over FreeRTOS and have made a lot of good experience with ChiCios. You could use an STM32 that has an ethernet MAC like STM32F107 or use an STM32F407. Moving to an external PHY and use the buildin MAC is not so complicative. There are a lot of code example on how to use the internal MAC. I have some experience with ethernet PHY's and If you like someone else to look over the schemartics or layout, I can do so. When using an STM32F429/439 you might have up to 8 UARTS (4xUSART+4xUART) so you can do RDM as well as DMX input. You can store setting within one or two pages of the flash. Adding PoE is not so complicative, so you can also do that later.

Michael

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[rbarr...@gmail.com]

I'm quite curious of your fader wings too.

I'm working (yes a parallel project) on a midi/keyboard/usb hybrid completely configurable with 8*16 gpio and 3 encoders, it's purpose will be as a platform for building generic keyboard/midi controllers completely customizable for lighting software (it's working currently on onPC without any extra software)

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[Michael Stickel]

On 25.11.2017 20:27, nicolas bats wrote:
>
> Michael,
> What is your fader wings?
>

I wrote about it in the list some time ago.
http://www.stickel.org/Wing5/index.html

I now have some pictures how it looks if they are build into a case. It
is all prototype stuff. As the LPC1114FN is somehow not available
anymore I plan to move to PIC32 in DIP case or to STM32F0 as I have some
good experience with it. The next Version will have a height of 180mm
instead of 160, so I have extra space for Motorfaders. I will make
another board with 5 x 8 Cherry MX1A keys. All connected via CAN or my
UART-over-CAN approach.

[Michael Stickel]

On 25.11.2017 19:23, Rui Barreiros wrote:
> The enc can filter traffic, so, if correctly setup we can just ignore
> all traffic not pertaining to our node, and 10mb is more than enough
> for 8 DMX universes. It can be DDOS'ed ofc it can, any of them can,
> even 100mbit can, but, it should be run in a controlled environment.
> Note that it's purpose is not to be a commercial product for big live
> concerts/festivals/tours, for that it would be the project i'm
> thinking of for next year (8out + 8in/out with STM32F4 or F7)

Once you start with the STM32F7xx, if you add some DRAM (>=32MByte) and
an SPI-Flash (16MByte) you can then use Linux on it.
As soon as we have a stable MPU support within Linux, things are not as
worse as with uCLinux.

[Michael Stickel]

I have the idea to have some PCB's, fader, button and encoder wing, interconnected by some bus (CAN or UART with CAN transceiver) and connected to some PC or RPi. Then build up an individual console like witn the Strand MMS in the early days.

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[Andrew Frazer]

If you want to use SDRAM, then you would probably want to use the MZ DA  Variants of IC’s, and yes, Linux is available for it. But for what I’m thinking, its way overkill.

 

 

 

Kind Regards

Andrew Frazer

 

From: Michael Stickel
Sent: Sunday, 26 November 2017 2:52 AM
To: open-l...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [open-lighting] 4 Universes out of a Number 1?

 

On 25.11.2017 01:11, Peter Stuge wrote:

--

[Michael Stickel]

What exactly is way overkill?

Linux on that SoC?
Linux for that product?
Any OS for that product?