stickers and drawn circuits

[phil jones]

Hi everyone.,

Here's something I've been thinking about for a couple of days. What
do people on this list think of the technical feasibility of this?

Prototyping circuits is too hard. Or rather, breadboard is OK; but
there's no way to keep a more permanent copy of an experiment without
soldering up a real board. I'd like some intermediate option.

What I really want are electronic components mounted in something like
those cushioned children's stickers, which I can layout on a bit of
cardboard, and then draw in a circuit with a pen filled with
conductive ink.

This seems like it should be doable. I can see there is some kind of
pen available (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/circuitwriter_conductive.html
) though haven't found anyone selling it in the UK so I haven't had a
chance to experiment. The actual electronic components could easily
fit onto stickers if someone could be persuaded to manufacture them in
that format (except maybe larger capacitors; but resistors, leds,
transistors, simple pushbuttons and small ICs seem plausible)

But I'm interested in your opinions. Is there a problem I haven't
thought of? And if not, anyone got suggestions or contacts for how to
suggest / persuade component manufacturers to adopt the sticker
format? (that last is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but there has to be a
way to get ideas into the industry - and this being OHH I'm not
interested in the "patent it" option.)

phil

[Adrian McEwen]

Hi Phil,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by cushioned stickers, but I wonder if
the foam mounting board [1] you can get from art supplies shops would
work as a breadboard replacement? Then once you've stuck all your
components into it, would the rear window demist repair paint [2] you
can get at places like Halfords (I think, I haven't looked for it for
quite a while) work for your conductive ink solution?

Adrian.

[1] e.g.
<http://www.jacksonsart.co.uk/wildcardsearch.php?id=notsowild&custorstaff=customer&how_to_shop=medium>
[2]
<http://www.quillertriumph.co.uk/Quiller/Parts/new_products/rear%20screen%20demister%20repair%20kit.htm>

[Al Wood]

2009/10/27 phil jones <inte...@gmail.com>

Hi everyone.,

Here's something I've been thinking about for a couple of days. What
do people on this list think of the technical feasibility of this?

Prototyping circuits is too hard. Or rather, breadboard is OK; but
there's no way to keep a more permanent copy of an experiment without
soldering up a real board. I'd like some intermediate option.

You could use vero/strip board to make permanent your breadboard design without going having to design and create PCBs, but that involves soldering . 

What I really want are electronic components mounted in something like
those cushioned children's stickers, which I can layout on a bit of
cardboard, and then draw in a circuit with a pen filled with
conductive ink.

This seems like it should be doable. I can see there is some kind of
pen available (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/circuitwriter_conductive.html
) though haven't found anyone selling it in the UK so I haven't had a
chance to experiment. The actual electronic components could easily
fit onto stickers if someone could be persuaded to manufacture them in
that format (except maybe larger capacitors; but resistors, leds,
transistors, simple pushbuttons and small ICs seem plausible)

Getting good conduction could be an issue, especially from the stickers to the conductive ink/paint. The stickers would need metallic edges (foil?). Some of the conductive inks also have quite high resistance (low conductance) which could cause issues.

Does it need to exist physically? would a drag and drop virtual (on a pc) work? or I you just trying to avoid the soldering bit? how far does it need to go? Have you got any example circuits in mind you want to prototype to give us an idea.

 

But I'm interested in your opinions. Is there a problem I haven't
thought of? And if not, anyone got suggestions or contacts for how to
suggest / persuade component manufacturers to adopt the sticker
format? (that last is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but there has to be a
way to get ideas into the industry - and this being OHH I'm not
interested in the "patent it" option.)

Well a lot of printed electronics technologies are coming into possible scope, whereby certain circuits could actually be printed but these are very specialized at the moment for things like RFID labels etc..

 

phil

--
http://www.folknology.com

[Al Wood]

2009/10/27 Al Wood <a...@folknology.com>

2009/10/27 phil jones <inte...@gmail.com>

Hi everyone.,

Here's something I've been thinking about for a couple of days. What
do people on this list think of the technical feasibility of this?

Prototyping circuits is too hard. Or rather, breadboard is OK; but
there's no way to keep a more permanent copy of an experiment without
soldering up a real board. I'd like some intermediate option.

You could use vero/strip board to make permanent your breadboard design without going having to design and create PCBs, but that involves soldering . 

What I really want are electronic components mounted in something like
those cushioned children's stickers, which I can layout on a bit of
cardboard, and then draw in a circuit with a pen filled with
conductive ink.

This seems like it should be doable. I can see there is some kind of
pen available (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/circuitwriter_conductive.html
) though haven't found anyone selling it in the UK so I haven't had a
chance to experiment. The actual electronic components could easily
fit onto stickers if someone could be persuaded to manufacture them in
that format (except maybe larger capacitors; but resistors, leds,
transistors, simple pushbuttons and small ICs seem plausible)

Getting good conduction could be an issue, especially from the stickers to the conductive ink/paint. The stickers would need metallic edges (foil?). Some of the conductive inks also have quite high resistance (low conductance) which could cause issues.

Actually I nearly forgot you can actually get conductive glues but I have never used them, but remember reading about them. 

Does it need to exist physically? would a drag and drop virtual (on a pc) work? or I you just trying to avoid the soldering bit? how far does it need to go? Have you got any example circuits in mind you want to prototype to give us an idea.

 

But I'm interested in your opinions. Is there a problem I haven't
thought of? And if not, anyone got suggestions or contacts for how to
suggest / persuade component manufacturers to adopt the sticker
format? (that last is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but there has to be a
way to get ideas into the industry - and this being OHH I'm not
interested in the "patent it" option.)

Well a lot of printed electronics technologies are coming into possible scope, whereby certain circuits could actually be printed but these are very specialized at the moment for things like RFID labels etc..

 

phil

--
http://www.folknology.com

--
http://www.folknology.com

[Al Wood]

Are you thinking this kind of thing : http://www.teachersource.com/ElectricityAndMagnetism/Electricity/ElectronicSnapCircuits.aspx 

But more 2D rather Than 3D ?

--
http://www.folknology.com

[Al Wood]

How about using magnetics to assemble the components like this 

http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2009/05/-1-littlebits-library.php

But more 2D of course, would that be permanent enough or our you thinking glue?

2009/10/27 Al Wood <a...@folknology.com>

--
http://www.folknology.com

[phil jones]

Thanks for the replies Al, Adrian

Yes. Kits like snap-circuits are one of the inspirations. It should be
easy for kids to play and learn electronics with something like this.
And similarly the little-bits project is heading in the direction I
want.

But the price and form-factor is still wrong. The components need to
be roughly the same price as existing components (pennies for
resistors, a couple of quid for most ics etc.) and small enough that a
typical arduino-type breadboard project could be layed out on, say, a
piece of A5 size card.

Using magnets instead of glue could be an alternative but I imagine
that adds cost to the components, and makes the finished circuit
unstable. Making it easy to disassemble and reuse the components isn't
a requirement for me. I'm looking for a medium for making a permanent
record of my circuit, just without the full industrial-strength of
printing and soldering a board.

Conduction between the components is an issue. Yes, I was thinking of
metal / foil edges for the stickers. I'm also thinking that it's
important that you can stick the component down and then draw the
connections, not draw the connection and then have to carefully fit
the sticker on top.

From what I've read, there are inks and glues containing silver that
may be sufficiently conductive, but are probably too poisonous for,
say, kids to play with.

phil

[phil jones]

Adrian,

Yes, it seems that fixing demisters etc. is currently the main way
that conductive paints are sold. I've just bought some but haven't
tried it yet.

phil

[Al Wood]

Xerox just announced printable circuit break through:

http://digital.venturebeat.com/2009/10/26/xerox-developers-a-silver-ink-that-can-be-used-to-wearable-or-throwaway-electronics/

very cool, Its coming..

2009/10/27 phil jones <inte...@gmail.com>

--
http://www.folknology.com

[Greenth]

If you can print with cement then you might be able to print a
conductive paint, hack an inkjet cartridge a give it a go on your
inket printer!

This stuff is spray gunnable.

http://www.technicalsupermarket.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=50&category_id=91&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=4

Or fill up a fountain pen for the low tech solution.

Printing on a one medium and bonding that onto another is probably the
easier way to go.

Best of luck!

Mark

[Greenth]

This looks possible...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Creating-Printed-Circuit-Boards-with-a-INKJET-Prin/

On 27 Oct, 16:07, Greenth <harrisonemb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> If you can print with cement then you might be able to print a
> conductive paint, hack an inkjet cartridge a give it a go on your
> inket printer!
>
> This stuff is spray gunnable.
>

> http://www.technicalsupermarket.com/index.php?page=shop.product_detai...