OC Transpo responds to Councillor Wilkinson

[Jonathan Rudenberg]

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/tc/2011/02-16/TTC%20Inq%2003-11%20-%20Open%20Data%20City%20%28Wilkinson%29.htm

Thoughts, folks?

Jonathan
--
Jonathan Rudenberg | @titanous

[Kevin O'Donnell]

I would hope that someone on the new transit commission would point out that the purpose of OC Transpo is to move people around the city. OC Transpo's primary purpose is not advertising.

Further, ownership is very important for the revenue generation potential arising from future advertising and sponsorship opportunities.  If valuable OC Transpo information was to be disseminated by third-party providers, users would be split through different advertising channels - those of City partners with advertising contracts and those of advertisers buying space on third-party applications.

Going after advertising dollars in order to offset operating costs is fine. Bus ads don't displace or affect OCTranspo's overall objective of moving people around.

Real time GPS data is entirely different. OCTranspo is proposing to withhold the data in order to monopolize it, thereby allowing 'partners' to sell advertising next to the captive audience that has no option on where to go for that information.  I would argue that this is a case where going after more advertising revenue conflicts with the primary goal: provide a reliable service that works for people.

OC Transpo is fortunate to already have internal resources at OC Transpo and IT Services, along with an external technical service provider whose help with these IT and technology issues is included in an existing contract.  In conclusion, consultants are not required in the provision of real-time data by OC Transpo.

The new OC Transpo website is an improvement over the last one, but it will never be as good as a what community developers will build to solve their own problems. I have no doubt that the "internal resources", while professional and capable people (haven't met them), will produce a good application. But it will be a good application that meets the defined requirements.  But it won't be what everyone in the community would want.

Opening up the data allows for many solutions to be created for different problems, instead of one application that tries to be everything to everyone, and imperfect in some way no matter what.

Cheers,
Kevin.
www.kevino.ca

[swf...@gmail.com]

I don't see how this statement from OC Transpo is consistent with the rest of their response:

OC Transpo fully supports the open data contest and the implementation of technology that will improve customer service.

The implication is that the existing feed and apps do not improve customer service.   This is patently false -- even with the issues that existed with the feed, the apps were proving useful.   At the very least, the feed was confirming which buses are actually running.

The next bus arrival information provided needs to be identical in all platforms, 

This is incorrect.    Having identical, but incorrect information on all platforms would be useless.    The ideal is identical and accurate information on all platforms.

Further, ownership is very important for the revenue generation potential arising from future advertising and sponsorship opportunities. 

I believe this is the crux of the matter -- OC Transpo is concerned about a potential loss of revenue.

These third parties are not delivering real-time data but a forecast based on the data they have

Whilst this is technically true, it misses the point.   With minor mods to the API it would be providing a timestamp for any GPS reading.   It is true that apps would have to choose how to forecast from that, but in fact, in the API, OC Transpo was providing forecasts of arrival time at stops, not the applications themselves.

What OC Transpo is missing is that the community may well find ingenious ways to improve the forecasts - but they have taken away the feed of data, so there is no opportunity to do that.

It is good that they are working to improve the quality of their data, but why turn off a useful feed pending that data being available?   

Their concerns about apps providing bad data are understandable, but can surely be addressed by apps displaying a disclaimer and explaining the situation.

In short, they claim to support open data, but really do not get it.

John

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Jonathan Rudenberg <jona...@titanous.com> wrote:

[Jonathan Rudenberg]

Thanks for your thoughts guys, I just finished an interview for CBC
Radio Ottawa News, a story should air Monday morning.

Stay in contact with your city councillors, we need to keep up the PR
campaign to get this data back.

Jonathan

--
Jonathan Rudenberg | @titanous

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:10 -0500, "swf...@gmail.com" <swf...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Sean Kibbee]

Agreed, stay on this everybody.

Sean

[Jonathan Rudenberg]

If you didn't catch the radio report this morning, here's the text
version:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2011/02/14/ottawa-oc-transpo-gps.html

--
Jonathan Rudenberg | @titanous

[Kevin O'Donnell]

Great work Jonathan,

Keeping the message to these frames is good:

• ... "I don't think it is OC Transpo's primary goal to monetize their data," he said.
• ... he created the app not for money, but to make it easier for him to use transit.
  

It forces the discussion to revolve around what is best for transit users (being moved around, not being shown ads) and also reinforces the communities motivations: (a) partially selfish: we've all suffered being frozen at a bus stop and will write our own code to avoid that; and (b) simple community service. Ottawa certainly values the efforts of volunteers in a multitude of other areas: it would be crazy to suggest that "due to ad revenue needs, [volunteer category] cannot be supported by the city".

The above messages are also effective because they are not negative towards OCTranspo. It just points out that the perfectly rational decision to offset operating costs via advertising has now run right up against a competing value: serving the customer as well as possible. Decision makers simply need to be shown that the "opportunity cost" of monopolizing the real-time data is high and, I suspect, offsets any projected revenue from advertising.

Glad you're running with this!

Cheers,
Kevin.

Kevin O'Donnell
Green Party of Ontario Candidate, Ottawa Centre
ke...@kevino.ca
www.kevino.ca
(613) 454-5306

[swf...@gmail.com]

Great work Jonathon,  the coverage today on CBC is perfect.

I'm having a hard time believing that the advertising revenue would be all that significant anyway -- wonder if OC Transpo have estimates of the revenue.

John

[Jonathan Rudenberg]

Thanks guys.

Here's an Ottawa Citizen blog editorial on the issue:
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/greaterottawa/archive/2011/02/14/the-open-data-battle-continues-with-oc-transpo.aspx

--
Jonathan Rudenberg | @titanous

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:12 -0500, "swf...@gmail.com" <swf...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Michael Richardson]

I got a call from CBC about this issue, from Gicomo.

--
] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [
] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net architect[
] m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
Kyoto Plus: watch the video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE>
then sign the petition.

[Michael Richardson]

>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin O'Donnell <ke...@kodonnell.ca> writes:
Kevin> The above messages are also effective because they are not negative towards
Kevin> OCTranspo. It just points out that the perfectly rational decision to offset
Kevin> operating costs via advertising has now run right up against a competing
Kevin> value: serving the customer as well as possible. Decision makers simply need
Kevin> to be shown that the "opportunity
Kevin> cost<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost>"
Kevin> of monopolizing the real-time data is high and, I suspect, offsets any
Kevin> projected revenue from advertising.

I gotta point out that the city can monetize all it wants.

By the city's argument, they can only make money if they are the only
ones with access to the data. By that argument, google can only make
money if all web sites are owned by google.

The monetization argument is a red-herring.

[Dave Schindler]

So, in summary, Google shows ads alongside data they don't own, but only in software that they own. OC Transpo wants to set up a similar situation - they want to show ads alongside data they (think they) own, in software they (want to) own, which they can't do effectively if we write software that does the same thing.

I agree that the city can monetize some things all it wants. But the GPS data should be open data. And if they can find a way to advertise alongside data that isn't technically theirs, then great. But retaining ownership of data that has been mandated to be opened, just to ensure that ads can be shown when it's accessed, isn't right.

Dave

[Michael Richardson]

>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Schindler <dave.sc...@gmail.com> writes:
Dave> So, in summary, Google shows ads alongside data they don't
Dave> own, but only in software that they own. OC Transpo wants to
Dave> set up a similar situation - they want to show ads alongside
Dave> data they (think they) own, in software they (want to) own,
Dave> which they can't do effectively if we write software that does
Dave> the same thing.

No, google makes money providing me information (pointers) to content
that is hosted on the internet, on sites they do not own.

Bing does the same thing.
Which-ever one does a better job gets the ad revenue.

The city can write an app to show an ad next to the GPS data if they
want to. That's just fine. If their app sucks, (regardless of whether
it is because of the ads or not), people won't use it.

[Darren Kipp]

 

Transit commission can fix OC Transpo's open-data screwup today

 

By David Reevely Wed, Feb 16 2011 COMMENTS(0) Greater Ottawa

 

Filed under: business, OC Transpo, Marianne Wilkinson, open data

The city's transit commission meets at 9:30 today, and one of the little items on the agenda is the answer to Councillor Marianne Wilkinson's question about why OC Transpo stopped providing real-time GPS data to the public, including to an app developer who won an award in the city's own contest.

Ottawa Morning had a fellow on this morning, whose name I missed, who pointed out that the city's pulling the data is yet another reason for honest people to be suspicious of dealing with the City of Ottawa. There are already the fiascos of the previous light-rail contract, next-stop-calling systems for buses, and a new internal phone system, all of which involved the city reneging on deals with its own business partners. Now it tells small-time app developers who accept its invitation to devise useful ways of presenting public information that if they come up with something really good, the city will just steal it and shut you down.

As we've seen, OC Transpo says it pulled the data in part because the transit company thinks it can make money off it, which is the opposite of the way the city's open-data policy instructs city employees to think about the the public information that's entrusted to them. The open-data policy isn't on the agenda for a vote — it's just information being sent to the commission — but the commissioners could choose to take a vote anyway to instruct their staff to follow the city rules. Today's a big chance.

[Darren Kipp]

Just read this on David Reevely's blog:

OC Transpo seems to do the right thing on open GPS data

 

By David Reevely Wed, Feb 16 2011 COMMENTS(0) Greater Ottawa

 

Filed under: OC Transpo, Alain Mercier, open data

It didn't require direct public intervention from the transit commission, in the end, for OC Transpo chief Alain Mercier to commit to making the transit company's GPS data public, at least once it's been cleaned up by the addition of more sophisticated equipment by sometime this fall.

Mercier told reporters today that that was always the plan — to get this information into the hands of the public.

It's funny how what he said in a scrum is pretty much directly at odds with OC Transpo's official written answer to the commission that oversees it, when the company was asked why it pulled live GPS data from public view a few weeks ago. That document says, in essence, "We intend to hoard this data because we think we can make money off it."

I suppose we'll see whether Mercier's newfound commitment to his employer's open-data principles really does extend to putting the raw information out for app developers to use, or whether he just means that the data will get into the public's hands via an OC-Transpo-branded app with ads in it that make money for the city. The impression he left is that that's what he intends.

Hope so. Those are the city rules.

============================

Sounds positive!