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J. Albert Bowden

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Mar 3, 2014, 2:37:05 PM3/3/14
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this place looks pretty dead...still lurking, or has everyone moved on?

Tim Davies

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Mar 4, 2014, 4:08:00 AM3/4/14
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Hello,

It has been very quiet. I'm still around here - and open to ideas for how the Open Data Engagement concept and project might be developed - but alas having had very little time to focus on it recently. 

Any thoughts on what should be going on?

Tim


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:37 PM, J. Albert Bowden <jalber...@gmail.com> wrote:
this place looks pretty dead...still lurking, or has everyone moved on?

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--------------------------
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Graham Lally

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Mar 4, 2014, 4:22:32 AM3/4/14
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Ditto - there's talk of reviving the Open Data Brighton & Hove group,
which ODE could feed into well. But too busy deep in databases for the
moment :-)

Would be interested to hear people's opinions on where we're at with
Open Data now though. Is it working? Is it commonplace? Is it "accepted"
yet? What's changing, and what's missing?

- Graham

On 04/03/2014 09:08, Tim Davies wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It has been very quiet. I'm still around here - and open to ideas for
> how the Open Data Engagement concept and project might be developed -
> but alas having had very little time to focus on it recently.
>
> Any thoughts on what should be going on?
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:37 PM, J. Albert Bowden
> <jalber...@gmail.com <mailto:jalber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> this place looks pretty dead...still lurking, or has everyone moved on?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Open Data Engagement" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to open-data-engage...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:open-data-engagement%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

Tim Davies

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Mar 4, 2014, 12:24:06 PM3/4/14
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Hey Graham,

Thanks for the update - and well posed questions.

More and more my research is leading me to look at how, whilst open data has seem substantial policy progress at the global level, the connections between data being made available, and different forms of civic engagement remain weak - in part because not many open data projects are not engaging with the wider cultural change needed alongside making data available.

Rather than being 'accepted', I think some degree of discourse around open data has become part of the orthodoxy, but that doesn't necessarily translate into effective data sharing practices with communities.

I've not looked recently to see what's happening at the local authority level in the UK, but I've certainly not heard many stories of substantial open data activity at a local level recently...

All the best

Tim

Graham Lally

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Mar 10, 2014, 6:14:31 PM3/10/14
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Hi Tim, thanks for the response,

On 04/03/2014 17:24, Tim Davies wrote:
> More and more my research is leading me to look at how, whilst open data
> has seem substantial policy progress at the global level, the
> connections between data being made available, and different forms of
> civic engagement remain weak - in part because not many open data
> projects are not engaging with the wider cultural change needed
> alongside making data available.

This is interesting - I think the question of _why_ people would engage
with data is still an underlying, unanswered question which ODE needs to
tackle. Would you say most people who have something to gain from
sharing data (publicly or privately) already do so?

I ask the question because I think it starts to set out a scale of
'rationale for engagement'. On the one hand, open data can be used as a
point of interaction to connect up people who are interested in the same
problem, but are either unaware the other exists, or don't know where to
begin an open, collaborative process.

On the other hand, there is the 'new potential' aspect of opening up
data which is a lot harder, as it requires a wholely different process
of understanding a problem *and* how someone else's data may help.

I'm not sure how the scale might look if fleshed out, but it could be
something to aid in understanding what level of need an ODE approach
requires (if it doesn't already ;-)

> Rather than being 'accepted', I think some degree of discourse around
> open data has become part of the orthodoxy, but that doesn't necessarily
> translate into effective data sharing practices with communities.

"Effective" is a useful word too. It feels like engagement for a dataset
should start with a notion of the problem it's addressing first - rather
than assuming simply that 'being closed' is a problem in itself.

In other words, can we identify what the application of correct data to
a goal is - what the advantages of it are, what makes the data useful,
etc. And on the flipside, can we identify what the *disadvantages* are -
ie. what makes people want to improve data? Both are forms of
engagement, but one is about application and the other about collaboration.

> I've not looked recently to see what's happening at the local authority
> level in the UK, but I've certainly not heard many stories of
> substantial open data activity at a local level recently...

From where I sit, it feels the initial "burst" has been tackled. Some
services are continuing, others are reconsidering options. It's still
relatively hard to prove the business case, in many cases.

When I'm rather more out of databases, there are some opportunities here
in Brighton to reactivate the local open data scene a bit, I believe.
It'll be interesting to see if we can start to apply some of the ODE
thoughts on a local network level.

Best,
Graham


>
> All the best
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Graham Lally <exm...@gmail.com
> <mailto:exm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ditto - there's talk of reviving the Open Data Brighton & Hove group,
> which ODE could feed into well. But too busy deep in databases for the
> moment :-)
>
> Would be interested to hear people's opinions on where we're at with
> Open Data now though. Is it working? Is it commonplace? Is it "accepted"
> yet? What's changing, and what's missing?
>
> - Graham
>
> On 04/03/2014 09:08, Tim Davies wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > It has been very quiet. I'm still around here - and open to ideas for
> > how the Open Data Engagement concept and project might be developed -
> > but alas having had very little time to focus on it recently.
> >
> > Any thoughts on what should be going on?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:37 PM, J. Albert Bowden
> > <jalber...@gmail.com <mailto:jalber...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jalber...@gmail.com <mailto:jalber...@gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > this place looks pretty dead...still lurking, or has everyone
> moved on?
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Open Data Engagement" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> > send an email to
> open-data-engage...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:open-data-engagement%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:open-data-engagement%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:open-data-engagement%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > w: http://www.timdavies.org.uk | m: 07834 856 303
> <tel:07834%20856%20303> | twitter: timdavies
> >
> > Co-director of Practical Participation:
> > http://www.practicalparticipation.co.uk
> > --------------------------
> > Practical Participation Ltd is a registered company in England and
> Wales
> > - #5381958.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Open Data Engagement" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

Tim Davies

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Mar 17, 2014, 9:19:02 AM3/17/14
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Hello Graham,

Sorry for the slow reply - some responses in-line below.

Tangentially - via Tim Hughes this morning I was alerted that the Public Administration Committee have recommended use of the 5 Stars of Open Data Engagement - (pt #56 in http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmpubadm/564/56405.htm#a10) - so the idea certainly retains traction, even if hard to fully conceptualise. 

On 04/03/2014 17:24, Tim Davies wrote:
> More and more my research is leading me to look at how, whilst open data
> has seem substantial policy progress at the global level, the
> connections between data being made available, and different forms of
> civic engagement remain weak - in part because not many open data
> projects are not engaging with the wider cultural change needed
> alongside making data available.

This is interesting - I think the question of _why_ people would engage
with data is still an underlying, unanswered question which ODE needs to
tackle. Would you say most people who have something to gain from
sharing data (publicly or privately) already do so?

Firstly, it's a very small group of people directly interested in data: for most people, the interest where data might turn out to be relevant is much more specific: schools, health, fishing, scientific study of flora and fauna in a particular place, etc. The first part of an open data engagement idea: around putting data in context, means that rather than dumping data out only on data portals, where someone would have to be thinking in terms of data to access it, the option of digging into the data can be brought into the places where people would look given their interest. 

This is about a shift in culture for suppliers of data in how they approach opening data. 

However, your question was more about whether the publishers will engage: what do they have to gain from opening data. That's indeed a challenge: sometimes the benefits don't accrue to the publishers. Yet, this is again where engagement might come in: if a publisher just pushes data out, and has no way of engaging with the people who use that data, they lose the potential opportunity to build new partnerships with the community. For example, a local authority may have a database of tree locations, and there may be a group of citizens in the local area passionate about the varieties of trees, their locations, policy around them and so-on. The dataset can, handled in an engaging way, act as a social object to connect up these citizens with government. 
 
I ask the question because I think it starts to set out a scale of
'rationale for engagement'. On the one hand, open data can be used as a
point of interaction to connect up people who are interested in the same
problem, but are either unaware the other exists, or don't know where to
begin an open, collaborative process. 

On the other hand, there is the 'new potential' aspect of opening up
data which is a lot harder, as it requires a wholely different process
of understanding a problem *and* how someone else's data may help.

I'm not sure how the scale might look if fleshed out, but it could be
something to aid in understanding what level of need an ODE approach
requires (if it doesn't already ;-)

I'm not sure it's a scale, so much as a mix of strategies and approaches. And one of the question it raises is which strategies, actions and approaches do different parts of a public authority have a key role in (potentially supporting engagement around data in the policy area they are responsible for vs. supporting 'new potential' uses of data which might not link to their policy area). 
 
> Rather than being 'accepted', I think some degree of discourse around
> open data has become part of the orthodoxy, but that doesn't necessarily
> translate into effective data sharing practices with communities.

"Effective" is a useful word too. It feels like engagement for a dataset
should start with a notion of the problem it's addressing first - rather
than assuming simply that 'being closed' is a problem in itself.

In other words, can we identify what the application of correct data to
a goal is - what the advantages of it are, what makes the data useful,
etc. And on the flipside, can we identify what the *disadvantages* are -
ie. what makes people want to improve data? Both are forms of
engagement, but one is about application and the other about collaboration.

Michael Gurstein's First Monday article (http://firstmonday.org/article/view/3316/2764) and blog post (http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/open-data-empowering-the-empowered-or-effective-data-use-for-everyone/) are interesting on this: giving a very clear definition to ideas of 'effective access' and considering downsides of data as well.

> I've not looked recently to see what's happening at the local authority
> level in the UK, but I've certainly not heard many stories of
> substantial open data activity at a local level recently...

From where I sit, it feels the initial "burst" has been tackled. Some
services are continuing, others are reconsidering options. It's still
relatively hard to prove the business case, in many cases.

When I'm rather more out of databases, there are some opportunities here
in Brighton to reactivate the local open data scene a bit, I believe.
It'll be interesting to see if we can start to apply some of the ODE
thoughts on a local network level.

Great. With the PAC recommendation it looks like re-sparking this conversation more will be a good thing. I'm hoping to surface properly from essay deadlines in a few weeks: when do you escape the databases?

All the best

Tim
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