deconstructing Oomyungdoecult.com part 4
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OneMindOneSpirit
Aug 14, 2012, 2:17:20 AM8/14/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
Cult behavior: The leadership dictates,
sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for
example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry or
leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether
or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
OYD response: Oom Yung Doe has nothing to do with the personal lives and decisions of those who train at any of the Oom Yung Doe schools. All schools are individually owned and operated.
Truth: Man oh man could I have a field day with this one. Gosh where do I even start? Basically everything OYD has stated to refute their association with this particular cult practice is one big lie. The reality is the utter and complete opposite--OYD does nothing but attempt at controlling your personal life. Once again, this doesn't apply *quite* as much for the average student (although the control is still present) but mainly applies for those who become assistant instructors, instructors and above. OYD DOES literally dictate, in very great detail how members should think, act, and feel.
Some experiences? I was told several times not to go to college. I was told to not get married, not to start a family. Joe Citrano (6th degree assistant national instructor, at least when i was there) personally said these things to me and then attempted to act like he didn't when I pressed the issue as to why on earth I was being told these things. I was then told that doing such things would prevent me from giving my all to "school" (often times OYD would use terms like "school" meaning "the OYD school" as cult slang, imitating how Kim would talk).
How many very many times could I recount being told how to think, being checked to see what I was thinking about, and then being told "the correct" thoughts to have? Too many times. One time I asked why, in this instance, some forms were being changed and I was told "I try not to think about that and just do what my higher belts tell me to do". This was again from my highest instructor in the city, Joe Citrano. Another time he told me simply never to ask any questions when being talked to by a "higher belt" (cult slang for higher ranking instructor). He spoke with pride when he told me he never questions what is said to him (with the implication that I ought to follow suit). Looks like he learned his lessons very well.
When several of the Boston schools broke away there was a period of tension and worry from the higher ranking instructors. When the news came down we were in a special lesson for instructors and as required, said but unsaid, we all had to stay for the student's special lesson which lasted several more hours that day (see part 3 for some info on OYD's debilitating work schedule cult practice). Simply being very tired and hungry, I was told by my instructor that I was "over thinking" as he I suppose was looking at me and judged my expression. Instantly turning himself into a mind reader, he said to me "i can tell you are over thinking about those who broke away". The reality was that I just wanted some food and sleep but it was too late to tell Joe anything different, as he had his on narrative playing in his head.
As for dating/marrying, you had better "check" with higher ranking instructors first. It was an unspoken rule, which quickly turned into sharp criticism if you broke that rule. Some relationships they approved of, some they did not. Ultimately they couldn't stop you from seeing someone but they made it known very clearly that you were on the outs and pretty much had no future with them since you disobeyed their command and control structure.
Dating is one thing, the greater picture is the level of commitment demanded of you if you were of any kind of instructor in OYD. Your mind was to be 100% focused on the school. I really do feel sorry for those who still remain in the school in any capacity--many of them do not understand how far their own personal goals have been subtly replaced with the motives of OYD. Like myself and others have covered before, perhaps one of the most insidious things about OYD is the fact that they get YOU to put the cult actions on yourself. Getting you to believe that the school is the be-all-and-end-all of everything, that there is no other place to find a meaningful life (was told this directly several times), that you'll reach some level of "enlightenment", you shift all your focus from yourself and who you are and what you want to what THEY want. YOU want to stay, to put up with everything, to continue to remain in what is essentially an abusive relationship because you have been conditioned to believe that if you just "keep going through" (OYD cult slang) you'll reach happiness. The thing to get is that in OYD the commitment level can ONLY go up. The moment you don't toe the line you are the black sheep unless you somehow are able to double down, usually quite literally, with money. Once you show that you give a certain amount of time, money and commitment to the organization, they WILL continue to demand more and more. It got to the point that instructors were told to sign up for multiple courses, each costing thousands of dollars per year.
Often this is subtle, sometimes it was outright said that this is what they want. In one lesson we were each asked what our goals in life are. We were then told that we are wrong and that our real goal should be to learn from grandmaster (kim), because by learning from him all of our other goals would be met. Just think about that for a second and let the implications sink in.
OYD response: Oom Yung Doe has nothing to do with the personal lives and decisions of those who train at any of the Oom Yung Doe schools. All schools are individually owned and operated.
Truth: Man oh man could I have a field day with this one. Gosh where do I even start? Basically everything OYD has stated to refute their association with this particular cult practice is one big lie. The reality is the utter and complete opposite--OYD does nothing but attempt at controlling your personal life. Once again, this doesn't apply *quite* as much for the average student (although the control is still present) but mainly applies for those who become assistant instructors, instructors and above. OYD DOES literally dictate, in very great detail how members should think, act, and feel.
Some experiences? I was told several times not to go to college. I was told to not get married, not to start a family. Joe Citrano (6th degree assistant national instructor, at least when i was there) personally said these things to me and then attempted to act like he didn't when I pressed the issue as to why on earth I was being told these things. I was then told that doing such things would prevent me from giving my all to "school" (often times OYD would use terms like "school" meaning "the OYD school" as cult slang, imitating how Kim would talk).
How many very many times could I recount being told how to think, being checked to see what I was thinking about, and then being told "the correct" thoughts to have? Too many times. One time I asked why, in this instance, some forms were being changed and I was told "I try not to think about that and just do what my higher belts tell me to do". This was again from my highest instructor in the city, Joe Citrano. Another time he told me simply never to ask any questions when being talked to by a "higher belt" (cult slang for higher ranking instructor). He spoke with pride when he told me he never questions what is said to him (with the implication that I ought to follow suit). Looks like he learned his lessons very well.
When several of the Boston schools broke away there was a period of tension and worry from the higher ranking instructors. When the news came down we were in a special lesson for instructors and as required, said but unsaid, we all had to stay for the student's special lesson which lasted several more hours that day (see part 3 for some info on OYD's debilitating work schedule cult practice). Simply being very tired and hungry, I was told by my instructor that I was "over thinking" as he I suppose was looking at me and judged my expression. Instantly turning himself into a mind reader, he said to me "i can tell you are over thinking about those who broke away". The reality was that I just wanted some food and sleep but it was too late to tell Joe anything different, as he had his on narrative playing in his head.
As for dating/marrying, you had better "check" with higher ranking instructors first. It was an unspoken rule, which quickly turned into sharp criticism if you broke that rule. Some relationships they approved of, some they did not. Ultimately they couldn't stop you from seeing someone but they made it known very clearly that you were on the outs and pretty much had no future with them since you disobeyed their command and control structure.
Dating is one thing, the greater picture is the level of commitment demanded of you if you were of any kind of instructor in OYD. Your mind was to be 100% focused on the school. I really do feel sorry for those who still remain in the school in any capacity--many of them do not understand how far their own personal goals have been subtly replaced with the motives of OYD. Like myself and others have covered before, perhaps one of the most insidious things about OYD is the fact that they get YOU to put the cult actions on yourself. Getting you to believe that the school is the be-all-and-end-all of everything, that there is no other place to find a meaningful life (was told this directly several times), that you'll reach some level of "enlightenment", you shift all your focus from yourself and who you are and what you want to what THEY want. YOU want to stay, to put up with everything, to continue to remain in what is essentially an abusive relationship because you have been conditioned to believe that if you just "keep going through" (OYD cult slang) you'll reach happiness. The thing to get is that in OYD the commitment level can ONLY go up. The moment you don't toe the line you are the black sheep unless you somehow are able to double down, usually quite literally, with money. Once you show that you give a certain amount of time, money and commitment to the organization, they WILL continue to demand more and more. It got to the point that instructors were told to sign up for multiple courses, each costing thousands of dollars per year.
Often this is subtle, sometimes it was outright said that this is what they want. In one lesson we were each asked what our goals in life are. We were then told that we are wrong and that our real goal should be to learn from grandmaster (kim), because by learning from him all of our other goals would be met. Just think about that for a second and let the implications sink in.
Manik Jamai
Aug 14, 2012, 11:05:23 AM8/14/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
| Good stuff, keep it up...I wonder who is actually reading all this? --- On Tue, 8/14/12, OneMindOneSpirit <mindf...@gmail.com> wrote: |
OneMindOneSpirit
Aug 15, 2012, 2:12:26 PM8/15/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com, mnkj...@yahoo.com
I wonder that too from time to time. You know since I basically told enough of "my story" on the old yahoo group, I was ready to just let the whole OYD thing go and only have a passing interest, as they seem to be a defunct organization, a shadow of its former self and merely a peddler of women's beauty products on the side. But then they tried to add my name into their strange court actions which was I guess a restraining order involving Janelle Kim, a person whom I've never even met. That pissed me off and makes me want to expose them for what they are in any public format available. I seriously would love to compare skills with anyone in their organization.
That and the oomyungdoecult.com website--I'll never get used to just how far OYD can go to lie about themselves. Literally every statement on that site is some kind of lie. No exaggeration. Not simply my personal opinion--they outright lie to try and save their image. They are probably feel the need to do some serious damage control due to having like no students anymore.
That and the oomyungdoecult.com website--I'll never get used to just how far OYD can go to lie about themselves. Literally every statement on that site is some kind of lie. No exaggeration. Not simply my personal opinion--they outright lie to try and save their image. They are probably feel the need to do some serious damage control due to having like no students anymore.
ThinkTwice
Sep 3, 2012, 5:48:52 AM9/3/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
I appreciate the information posted here; it helped me decide to stop taking OYD lessons. I liked my instructors and they seemed normal, and I felt like I was getting physically stronger. But I went to a seminar taught by Mike and Bob and was very uncomfortable. The other students and instructors there were groveling at their feet and a lot of instructors looked out of shape. Bob told me that a lot of people with health or emotional problems join the school, and it came across like it was a place for misfits -- not a very appealing advertising message. He also said something about his students sometimes asking him about "something they read on the internet", which I didn't understand at the time. Mike talked about an older woman who could suddenly do flying side kicks after taking the seminar, about Kim going up on a mountain to train, and things Kim did that sounded like parables from the bible. It was such a turn off. I was thinking, "Why can't they just talk about Kim as a great martial artist? All this talk about jumping off buildings and being God-like makes it seem so fake." So I did research, got a lot of information from this forum, and read other articles about the leaders going to jail and the talk about it being a cult. After that I didn't want to be associated with OYD and questioned a lot of the moves that I had learned. The foot/leg positions in Pal Gae don't make sense to me. It isn't a fighting stance, and if the point is to get more flexible, there are more natural positions that would do that. I couldn't even contort my body in the position anyway, and it hurt my knees. Even with the moves that I liked, I would rather keep working on them until I was skilled instead of moving on to a new style right away. Other things I didn't like were: funneling students into being instructors, asking students to volunteer to do things that other businesses would pay people to do, Bob having partial ownership of local schools, that it would be possible to spend $40,000 in a year by taking extra lessons and seminars, instructors asking personal questions, some instructors seemed to have an inflated sense of self-importance, and instructors talking about healing/curing physical conditions beyond the benefits of regular exercise.
Since this forum helped me, I wanted to write about my experience in case it is helpful for someone else.
It haven't found a new martial arts place yet. I don't want to do tournaments or have to practice fighting for any reason other than learning how to block a punch and protect myself. I just want a good workout and self-defense skills. Yelp doesn't have many reviews, I don't go anywhere that I see people practicing, and the places I've stopped by seem to have too much of an aggressive vibe for me. So if anyone reading this could post the specific names of schools they know that are good, I would appreciate it.
Frank Perry
Sep 13, 2012, 12:18:34 AM9/13/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
The better MA learing is sought, not advertised. You have to do some homework. If you feel compelled to make reference to your time in the cult of Moo, your new potential teachers will defer taking you on. This is where the 'you have to earn part' gets tricky.
OneMindOneSpirit
Oct 1, 2012, 6:22:51 PM10/1/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
You just have to keep trying schools in your area and seeing for yourself what goes on there and how you like it. Most schools are not national chains so I don't know what is in your area.
You could also try finding a private teacher, that is, not a teacher who teaches in a commercial school. In my opinion these are the best. They don't try to make their entire living off the martial arts and thus their teaching is not corrupted by the multiple courses, endless seminars and *ahem* investing opportunities that we may have been used to in the past somewhere. The martial arts community is fairly close so unless someone really wants to remain a secret they are listed somewhere. Don't worry about your past experience with OYD--most teachers have never heard of this organization. Or in my case, two of my teachers have heard of them, have humiliated their instructors in challenges/confrontations and are now glad I am going after real gong fu.
For a teacher directory, try rumsoakedfist.org and hsing-i.com
On Monday, September 3, 2012 4:48:52 AM UTC-5, ThinkTwice wrote:
You could also try finding a private teacher, that is, not a teacher who teaches in a commercial school. In my opinion these are the best. They don't try to make their entire living off the martial arts and thus their teaching is not corrupted by the multiple courses, endless seminars and *ahem* investing opportunities that we may have been used to in the past somewhere. The martial arts community is fairly close so unless someone really wants to remain a secret they are listed somewhere. Don't worry about your past experience with OYD--most teachers have never heard of this organization. Or in my case, two of my teachers have heard of them, have humiliated their instructors in challenges/confrontations and are now glad I am going after real gong fu.
For a teacher directory, try rumsoakedfist.org and hsing-i.com
On Monday, September 3, 2012 4:48:52 AM UTC-5, ThinkTwice wrote:
Manik Jamai
Oct 10, 2012, 6:04:12 PM10/10/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
Hmmm, I thought they were improving their ways, but sounds like the same old same old!
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Manik Jamai
Oct 10, 2012, 6:08:04 PM10/10/12
to oomyungdoe...@googlegroups.com
| My teacher knows where I came from, and never seemed to care. He just told me that I should go to my "old style" and show them how much I've improved since I've been out of there. :) --- On Thu, 9/13/12, Frank Perry <frankpe...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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